Class 700

[olivegreen]

On the subject of seating, and having seen the photos towards the top of this thread, I would just say that the issue is not one that affects the UK alone. This is hardly a surprise, given that the same few manufacturers build most of Europe's trains these days.

 

Yesterday  I travelled in Brittany on a Regio2N (either a Z 55500 or Z 56500 - I'm not sure which but the interiors are the same) and this is the First class seating on the upper deck - there is no lower deck first class - and it is 2+2. (My own photo - no copyright claimed):

 

 

 

 

The following open-source publicity photo shows second class - 

 

 

 

Apart from obvious things like colour and the absence of centre armrest in second class, spot the difference.  

 

There is none... 

 

…well, there is, because the leg room in first is far greater, and as a long-legged person, I'd say it is very good. But part from that, I see no difference.

My main criticisms would be that the seats and their backs in both classes are designed so close to a right angle that to sit upright is torture, particularly if you are over about 5'7", and that using the table and footrest at the same time is impossible unless your lower leg measures only about a foot long. And, of course, there is virtually no room for luggage.

 

In Brittany at least, these trains are used on journeys which go up to about two and a half hours - comparable with what has been discussed above regarding Thameslink.

 

At least the 700 has antimacassars in First, whereas the Regio2N only has rather nasty plastic!

 

None of which excuses the spartan comfort of the Class 700 being discussed here, but shows that others suffer from the same deal.

 

(minor wording edit) (second edit to say that there IS a centre armrest in second class)

[stivesnick]

Also missing from the Class 700 trains....

 

Seat back tables

Sockets

Wi-Fi

 

As a daily commuter on the GN, I have raised these issues a number of times with GTR managers who say they are in discussion with the DfT about them. Nice to know there will be a large cost to the taxpayer and a unit will be taken out of service to retro-fit them later.  

 

Nick

[phil-b259]

Also missing from the Class 700 trains....

 

Seat back tables

Sockets

Wi-Fi

 

As a daily commuter on the GN, I have raised these issues a number of times with GTR managers who say they are in discussion with the DfT about them. Nice to know there will be a large cost to the taxpayer and a unit will be taken out of service to retro-fit them later.  

 

Nick

The problem is that any variation to the design spec will have landed the DfT with a large bill from Siemens - hence their reluctance to do anything about the critisms over lack of tables and wifi which they have known about ever since the first mock up was displayed to the public.

 

As you say GTR have known for a long time that regular users will kick up a big fuss when the trains are in service - but their hands are tied. If they pay to upgrade the trains then the leasing costs go up - which affects the management contract the DfT drew up when letting the franchise, which in turn means the DfT have to cough up more money, which shows they are useless at procuring trains, which has political ramifications given the whole point of the DfT doing so was to avoid the "rip off ROSCOs"

 

It's a similar case with the IEPs where VTEC is faced with a large bill for upgrading the interiors from the decidedly basic spec the DfT agreed with Hitachi.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Is there anything that the DfT actually do right first time?

[Zomboid]

Is there anything that the DfT actually do right first time?

Perhaps they're better at canals? I don't think they could successfully specify a train from the Hornby catalogue.

[phil-b259]

Is there anything that the DfT actually do right first time?

 

To be fair they normally have good intentions - but the political environment in which they operate means (1) they don't know when its best to sit back and let the professionals (i.e. not Politicians) manage things or (2) they don't like the truth because it creates awkward political questions (as with the results of every single enquiry into the ROSCOs)

[jonathan452]

Whilst on the subject of 317s, here are three units lined up at Bedford awaiting the commencement of the original 'Bedpan' service.

 

Believe it or not, this photo was taken as long ago as March 1978.

 

 

317314 325 327 bedford 3:78.jpg

The earliest this picture could conceivably date from is 1982, the year the Class 317's were introduced.

 

(Though their introduction in-to service was delayed until 1983 due to the DOO dispute.)

 

Besides the installation of the foundation bases for the Bed Pan electrification didn't start until May 1978.

[jonny777]

Thanks for that correction. I thought it seemed a bit early, but I just went with what was written on the slide mount and assumed my memory was rubbish yet again.

[bigP]

--

[jonathan452]

New Thameslink trains could have plugs and WiFi retro-fitted - http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/2016/06/06/new-thameslink-trains-could-have-plugs-and-wifi-retro-fitted

[John M Upton]

Saw my first Class 700 in the flesh this evening on the stops at Brighton:

GTR Thameslink Class 700/1 700107 Brighton 5/7/16 by John Upton, on Flickr

[stewartingram]

Who said cattle trains were dead.....?

 

Stewart

[jonathan452]

Severe delays on Thameslink line from St Albans due to broken down (Class 700) train - http://www.hertsad.co.uk/news/severe_delays_on_thameslink_line_from_st_albans_due_to_broken_down_train_1_4613008

[John M Upton]

A contrast in design at Brighton on Wednesday afternoon:

GTR Gatwick Express Class 442 442417 and GTR Thameslink Class 700/1 700109 Brighton 13/7/16 by John Upton, on Flickr

One rather ugly with a nice interior, the other rather ugly with an awful interior!!!

[Zomboid]

I always thought 442s were quite stylish, with the wrap around windscreens. They do need the jumper covers though.

700s would look ok without that massive coupler.

[Reorte]

I always thought 442s were quite stylish, with the wrap around windscreens. They do need the jumper covers though.

700s would look ok without that massive coupler.

The 422 suffers rather badly from the gangway connection, obviously not much that can be done about that though.

[frobisher]

The 422 suffers rather badly from the gangway connection, obviously not much that can be done about that though.

I think the 442 looks rather magnificent with the gangway connection, but then being raised in the south EMUs don't look right to me unless they are gangway fitted

[Fenman]

I think the 442 looks rather magnificent with the gangway connection, but then being raised in the south EMUs don't look right to me unless they are gangway fitted

 

I think the original NSE Express livery suited them very well - in particular having a yellow panel that stretched all across the front but only half-way up it.

 

The successive repaints, where the gangway doors are now painted full height in yellow while the sides have a lower panel, makes the front look like a cluttered jumble. Discarding the panels hasn't helped.

 

It's a pity. The 442s were, for me, the most stylish of the 3rd rail EMUs, but they have been rather neglected for many years.

 

Paul

[Zomboid]

I think the 442 looks rather magnificent with the gangway connection, but then being raised in the south EMUs don't look right to me unless they are gangway fitted

Agree on that. Unless its got raked front like a voyager, MUs look like they're missing something with no gangway.

360s in particular look like a face would without a nose.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Good British styling with a bit of an edge vs a rather anodyne "could be anywhere" design.

[Christopher125]

Good British styling with a bit of an edge vs a rather anodyne "could be anywhere" design.

I like the 700 design personally, a clever way of meeting the latest regulations - much more distinctive than Bombardier's generic pointy noise for the upcoming Crossrail/Overground Aventras and a huge improvement over the 360s.

[DavidB-AU]

Some video of a 707 being tested in Germany.

 

 

Incidentally, if you've never watch The Londonist on Youtube it's well worth it. Geoff Marshall (a previous holder of the Tube Challenge record) makes a lot of videos about secrets of the London Underground and London's lost railways.

 

Cheers

David

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I travelled on a class 700 for the first time the other day. I was impressed. The ride was smooth and the passenger information (particularly around capacity) was useful. The train was very busy - standing room only - but there was considerably more space than on an equivalent length train of 377s. The ride was also much better, the Electrostar units rock and roll like crazy.

 

The media had a field day when it came to the seating capacity of these units - less seats, more standing room), but the clamour for lots of seating capacity leads to the stupid 3x2 seats on the 377s which are utterly useless on a packed train. The majority of journeys on these units will be in the London area during peak time, where capacity is king (and always has been). Horses for courses, and these units fit the bill perfectly.

[Dunsignalling]

Who said cattle trains were dead.....?

 

Stewart

If commuters can't take a joke, they shouldn't have joined.

[Zomboid]

The media had a field day when it came to the seating capacity of these units - less seats, more standing room), but the clamour for lots of seating capacity leads to the stupid 3x2 seats on the 377s which are utterly useless on a packed train. The majority of journeys on these units will be in the London area during peak time, where capacity is king (and always has been). Horses for courses, and these units fit the bill perfectly.

To a point. They're the right answer for journeys between Croydon and St Albans, but they're also going to take people from Haywards Heath to Luton airport, for which they are clearly unsuitable. It's an inner suburban train, but it's being bought to run outer suburban and inter city services.