Early Bagnall 0-4-0 Locomotive

[hartleymartin]

 

Picture from this webpate: http://www.brc-stockbook.co.uk/QN_18_06.htm

 

Text from the page:

 

The engine in the picture is an inside cylinder 0-4-0T which was supplied new to the Wotton Tramway in 1877 from W.G. Bagnall Ltd, Stafford, maker's No. 120 and was called Wotton. The first engine was called Buckingham and this was a 0-4-0ST built to the order of Chaplin and Horne, the Duke's agents, and this arrived in December, 1876. It was recorded as Bagnall's maker's No. 16 and is reputed as having first been South Wales before coming to the Tramway. Mr E.J.S. Gadsden refers to these two engines in his book 'Metropolitan Steam' and he adds the observation that it is unlikely that either of them were actually built at Bagnall's works as they did not appear to have had facilities for standard gauge construction at that time. Mr W.K. Williams, Hon Records Officer of the Industrial Railway Society has added the additional information that 'Buckingham' had cylinders 7½” diameter and 11" stroke, and that Chaplin and Horne hired the engine to the Tramroad. In the case of 'Wotton' the cylinders were 8" diameter and 12" stroke. In February, 1964, in the 'Railway World', Mr R.G. Baker of Newcastle, Staffs, wrote a letter regarding the Bagnall locomotives and gives 'Wotton's' wheel diameter as 2' 6", wheelbase as 6' and weight as 10 tons 15 cwt. He also made the point most emphatically that these engines were not built by W.G. Bagnall, though they were painted and finished off at Stafford. Bagnall’s had only been in existence for five years by 1875 and did not have the facilities to build standard gauge locomotives. They used to hand-build narrow gauge locomotives one at a time. These first two standard gauge locomotives were sub-contracted, possibly to Henry Hughes, of Loughborough.

 

 

Is there any more information available about this locomotive? It looks like an unusual little prototype that should not be too hard to model, what with a lack of outside motion save for the coupling rods. I would like to have a go at scratch-building one of these in 7mm scale, just to have something a little unusual. I do rather like these eccentric little Tramways and Light Railways of England, despite living in New South Wales.

 

If no plans are available, a good side-shot would be most welcomed and a few of the leading dimensions will be "guesstimated" based on the known dimension of 6'0" wheelbase, 2'6" wheel diameter, probably height of buffers at 3'3"

 

Manufactured by W. G. Bagnall:

• "Buckingham", 0-4-0ST, works number 16, built 1876
• "Wotton", 0-4-0T, works number 120, built 1877

They were unusual in having "reversed" inside cylinders, which drove the front axle.

Edited May 28, 2016 by hartleymartin

[EddieB]

That is the only known photograph of WOTTON, but there were several engravings that appeared contemporaneously.  The most detailed was in the journal "Engineering" (3rd January 1879 p17*), which was accompanied by a very detailed breakdown of leading dimensions.  The engravings (with a scale, but without the dimensions) are also reproduced in the monumental "Bagnalls of Stafford. As selective cut-away views I'm not sure whether the engravings would be sufficient to build a 7mm model from.

 

 

*Link here: http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/c/cb/Eg18790103.pdf

Edited May 28, 2016 by EddieB

[hartleymartin]

Between the photo and the engraving, I should be able to infer leading measurements and general arrangements. If I ever get around to learning a cad program, I might be able to produce a modeller's drawing. Well, at least one with enough detail to produce a model.

 

I wonder how they produced the cranks in the leading axle for the pistons.

[bertiedog]

 

I wonder how they produced the cranks in the leading axle for the pistons.

Direct forging of the part on a forge hammer. The engraving has more than enough details for a model.........but where is the source of Engineering Articles? are more on line?

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

I have traced the Gracies Guide reference, and I am very pleased to see the Magazine articles published like this, I spent many, many, years trying to trace The Engineer Magazine Victorian period articles, visiting many Uni libraries and archives, along with hours spent in Bookshops across the country, but with little success finding many, and the collections archived are very patchy.

 

I will have to see if I have the time, and a hard drive to download the lot in PDF form......maybe more selectively!!! Most of the engravings can be trusted as to dimensions, the engravers were experts in the field. Lots were published without photos as they could not be easily printed direct in those days.

 

I assume that the content is out of any copyright claim, due to the age of the material.

 

Stephen.

[PatB]

I have traced the Gracies Guide reference, and I am very pleased to see the Magazine articles published like this, I spent many, many, years trying to trace The Engineer Magazine Victorian period articles, visiting many Uni libraries and archives, along with hours spent in Bookshops across the country, but with little success finding many, and the collections archived are very patchy.

 

I will have to see if I have the time, and a hard drive to download the lot in PDF form......maybe more selectively!!! Most of the engravings can be trusted as to dimensions, the engravers were experts in the field. Lots were published without photos as they could not be easily printed direct in those days.

 

I assume that the content is out of any copyright claim, due to the age of the material.

 

Stephen.

 

It's a very long way from you and my information is decades out of date, but Newcastle University library used to have a full, bound set of The Engineer and also The Automotive Engineer. Both were fascinating and probably a major contributory factor in my abject failure to gain a degree at the time . I know they were there in 1988, but now, who knows?

[hartleymartin]

Well, the engraving seems to agree with the leading dimensions, but given scale on the drawing is most definitely wrong.

 

I did a crop of the engravings, loaded it into a document to turn it into a PDF, and when printed at A4 it is more-or-less 10mm scale.

 

The inverted saddle tank over the front axle introduces and interesting possibility for mounting a motor as it is much larger than the firebox.

 

Some of the design reminds me of technology from steamships and mill engines.

 

There isn't a lot of detail in the chassis. Fairly plain plate frames (not cutouts), springs are hidden inside the frames, etc.

[hartleymartin]

An enlarged and cropped version of the Bagnall Photo

 

 

Extract from 1871 Engineering Journal Article (Leading Dimensions given in artible)

[Nearholmer]

Roy C Link, founder and editor of the magazine "Narrow Gauge & Industrial Railways Review" is an expert on the baby versions of these ISTs, 2ft gauge, and has built numerous models of them in several scales, he is contactable via e-mail. http://www.crowsnesttramway.co.uk/contact.html

 

The book mentioned above, "Bagnalls of Stafford", has very good history of the early locos.

 

The Wotton/Brill Tramway was not far from where I live and I've walked all of the route that can be walked, and comparing with photos, it is surprising how little the area has changed in the past 120+ years.

 

Kevin

Edited May 29, 2016 by Nearholmer

[NeilHB]

What a fascinating little prototype! Well done Martin for finding it - must admit I am quite taken with it and am now wondering if I can find a use for one on Elsbridge Wharf...I note that Slaters produce a 2'6" driving wheel intended for a Ruston & Hornsby loco, however this is 4-hole; judging from the cropped photo you posted it appears the prototype had solid disc wheels - Slaters also produce a 2'3" disc wheel (with crankpin boss - intended for a County Donegal rail car so 3'/21mm gauge) but this would obviously require the purchase of their standard gauge axles. However I understand that these have a profile more suited to EM gauge than standard 0 so I'm not sure if they would work.

[mike morley]

Disc wheels?  I'd say they were spoked wheels with big balance weights.

[pete_mcfarlane]

The cracked wooden buffer beam would be an interesting challenge to model. 

[Nearholmer]

I'm pretty sure they had cast, disc, wheels, with the types shrunk on.

 

Anyway, here is a Bagnall IST in NZ, although it is impossible to see the wheels or anything else below the footplate. http://www.trainweb.org/loggingz/bagnall.html

 

K

Edited May 29, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Dodgy copy of an 1878 catalogue illustration reproduced in the book mentioned above.

 

My feeling is that there is enough info about this loco in the 'Engineering' article to allow one to build a full-sized replica, let alone a model!

 

K

Edited May 29, 2016 by Nearholmer

[mike morley]

A full-sized replica?  Will follow this thread with considerable interest!  (Tongue thrust firmly in cheek!)

[Nearholmer]

Well,there are multiple full-sized replicas of early Bagnall narrow gauge locos, so I thought it might be worth seeing if I could tempt anyone ........

 

K

[EddieB]

Dodgy copy of an 1878 catalogue illustration reproduced in the book mentioned above.

 

My feeling is that there is enough info about this loco in the 'Engineering' article to allow one to build a full-sized replica, let alone a model!

 

K

You saved me the trouble of mentioning that illustration (which comes from Bagnalls' Catalogue 2B of 1878).  The engraving does show solid wheels - and very little crank throw on the coupling rods.  It does suggest holes at radii perpendicular to the crank lines - here's a better illustration from a contemporary locomotive ("BRICK", b/n 210 of 1879): http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/d/d9/Im1879Ev28-p017.jpg.

 

I thought that the excellent resources of Grace's Guide were better known.  Here's a link to another early Bagnall engraving - http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/5/5f/Im18800625E-Bagnall1.jpg - ("KENT" b/n 265 of 1879).  Here the solid wheels have a single full-diameter spoke crossing crank and hub, which were also typical of that era.

Edited May 29, 2016 by EddieB

[Nearholmer]

Graces Guide is THE place for the retro-technologist.

 

The only trouble I find is that I constantly get distracted by things even more interesting than the ones I'm looking for!

 

K

[hartleymartin]

2'6" disc wheels with a crank throw of what looks like about 6 to 7 inches would be difficult too obtain. 17.5mm wheels... maybe very old OO gauge wheels? 4'3" works out as 17mm in 4mm scale.

Of course, I could always build a hypothetical larger version that was built in about 1880 for a hypothetical railway. 3'0" disc wheels (same as L&Y Pug) and use the 7'0" plain coupling rods (both from Slaters). About 15% enlarged.

[hartleymartin]

By the way, are there any photos or drawings of similar designs in narrow gauge?

[hartleymartin]

I'm pretty sure they had cast, disc, wheels, with the types shrunk on.

 

Anyway, here is a Bagnall IST in NZ, although it is impossible to see the wheels or anything else below the footplate. http://www.trainweb.org/loggingz/bagnall.html

 

K

 

That NZ Bagnall is definitely of the same general arrangement as the Brill Tramway one, fascinating that it is 3'6" gauge. Would make a nice 1:24 scale model on 32mm gauge.

[mike morley]

Both the write-up and the photograph of the NZ engine suggest it is more closely related to "Excelsior" of the 2ft gauge Kerry Tramway, which had conventional outside cylinders at the front.  There is a good drawing of her by Roy c. Link (Who has made a model of her.  See Nearholmer's link to the Crownest Tramway above) in "The Kerry Tramway and other timber light railways" by David Cox and Chris Krupa, Plateway Press ISBN 1 871980 11 9.

As all three locos have a similar appearance it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the design of the later two evolved from that of the Brill engine.

Edited May 30, 2016 by mike morley

[Nearholmer]

Martin

 

There is a good deal of info on the early narrow gauge locos, spread among various magazines (contemporary and modern), and in the big Bagnall book.

 

Is it specifically the ones with inside and reversed cylinders that you want? If so, The Engineer article about "Brick" is a good place to start.

 

Kevin

[hartleymartin]

It is this inside reversed-cylinder type that has me fascinated.

[Nearholmer]

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/0/08/Er18790103.pdf

 

See p4 for a "build it yourself" guide to a narrow gauge one.

 

K