Best oils for lubrication ?

[jimbo]

Hi All,

 

What do you chaps use to lubricate locos and rolling stock please.

 

thanks.

 

Jim

[John R Smith]

I have recently obtained some "Locolube" by DCC supplies, which is synthetic and is safe on plastics. This is easy to apply but is very, very light, and I would have thought more appropriate for the smaller scales like 4mm and 'N' where mechanisms are very small and delicate. So I have used it where plastics are involved, but for motor bearings, wheel bearings etc which are quite beefy in O Gauge I still favour my good old Singer sewing machine oil, applied carefully with an oiling pin. This is excellent oil but it will "creep" if you overdo things. For brass and steel worm gears I use a dab of Molyslip grease which is magic stuff.

 

John

[Simond]

Ooooh, risky question

 

There are probably as many answers as contributors, but I'll sling my tuppenceworth in. I use Wahl clipper oil, as befits a bewhiskered gentleman. This is convenient.

 

The label has come off my current bottle, but it is marketed by the same folks who do the "number X all over" hair & beard trimmers.

 

There are other makes available, online and from hairdressers' suppliers. I checked the MSDS for it, it is a standard light mineral oil, unadulterated by anything. I have used it for locos and rolling stock, and cleaning track, for at least 20 years, and have yet to experience an issue with it harming anything, or going gummy, which some oils are prone to do.

 

In particular, there have been some heated debates about 3in1 which has this reputation, but I don't know, as I haven't ever used it on models.

 

https://worldsgreatestshave.com/upload/file/download/Safety_Info_on_Clipper_oil.pdf

 

Convenient size bottle too.

 

Molyslip grease is great stuff, but the moly bit will never come into play, as it is an extreme pressure lubricant - it'll never see enough pressure to become an active ingredient in the lubrication of a model. The Singer stuff is very likely the same light, additive free stuff as the clipper oil. Found this MSDS which suggests it is very similar.

 

http://www.aussiesapphire.com/Storage/SingerOil_MSDS.pdf

 

I guess, "whatever you can get at the right price"

 

I'd second John's suggestion of "applied lightly with a pin" where motors are concerned. Any oil on the commutator will wreck the motor.

 

On the gears, axle bearings, crank pins, and anything else mechanical, it's more a case of adding to taste, it will of course spread, and will make your loco look oily. But that may be a good thing. If you put too much on gears or bearings, it'll drip off, and you'll get oil stains on your ballast. But that might be a good thing too. Of course, you might get cat hairs stuck to the oil, and that doesn't look good...

 

HTH

Simon

[Jintyman]

 I use Wahl clipper oil

 

 Of course, you might get cat hairs stuck to the oil, and that doesn't look good...

 

 

I agree with Simon, clipper oil or light sewing machine oil.

Some other oils have a detergent in them which is actually harmful to your locos.

 

Simon, when did you start running over your cat to get cat hairs in your oil?

 

Jinty

[cravensdmufan]

I started using Labelle some years ago and have been more than happy.  The light oil 108 and white grease are the only two I use.

 

Even made my old Lima locos run nice and smooth.

 

Bit expensive but you only need a tiny bit - it lasts for ages.

[Simond]

David

 

There's a photo of the roadway on the old Greater Windowledge Railway, the cat had clearly investigated every inch...

 

Best

Simon

[bertiedog]

Sewing machine oil, Labelle silicon oil & Labelle silicon grease, with PTFE, and recently Nano oil and grease, all are safe with plastics and paint, bar the sewing machine oil, use sparingly.  To gain a slightly thicker sewing machine oil add a drop or two of engine oil, but keep the mix off paint.

 

Molyslip will work with O gauge gears, the pressure at the exact point where the gears touch is enough to make it work. I worked for test instrument makers who made BS oil test equipment and it showed in tests that both moly and PTFE work under surprisingly low loadings.

 

In the UK 3in1 is popular, but it contains very light oil fractions to make it penetrate, and it creeps. It can also attack paint.

 

Most oils used in the clock trade are safe, many are synthetic now. the rule with oil is to be very sparing, unless in a sealed gearbox etc.

 

Stephen.

[Simond]

Stephen

 

It's a very long time since I had anything professional to do with oils & greases or other matters tribological, so I'll take your word for it that the moly may actually work, but I'll bet that at the tooth loadings we see in models, even heavy 7mm ones, the difference it might make is negligible - it simply isn't worth spending extra for something unnecessary.

 

Of course, if, like John, you already have it, by all means use it.

 

I wish I remembered where to find the debate about 3 in 1, it got quite bad tempered. I seem to recall there was an allegation / suggestion that it contained some kind of varnish, at which point someone from the manufacturer joined in to categorically deny it

 

Best

Simon

[bertiedog]

    3 in one has added "thinners", and is two types of oil in one, it was intended as a semi penetrating oil for general domestic use. It contains no rust inhibitors as such, just the oil to keep air off the metal. It does "creep".

 

   On moly, the actual point contact area on the gear face is very tiny, but this is 7mm gears, and if the weight of the train is worked out, and the area of contact is divided into to the applied force, it can be a very surprising figure! Some gears give theoretical figures of tones per square inch, but as the contact is small the actual figure is low overall, but enough to make Moly worthwhile.

 

    Nano Oil, and grease, works in a similar way, it contains nano sized particles of an emulsion of oils that does work, as tests show. Sounded like a snake oil item at first, but it does reduce friction. Unfortunately they are very close with revealing any details of how it is produced. It is widely used in clockmaking nowadays.

 

  A "no" on models is STP, it is an oil thickener for car oils, it does not reduce friction on its own, only in the heat of an engine. It also creeps horribly.

 

  In the end it pays to use established stuff like LaBelle, usually available on ebay, or from some UK stockists, inert, clean, and it works.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

http://www.nano-oil.com/index.html

 

Is the ref for Nano Oil site, purely for reference. There is a tab for Model Rail product uses.

 

http://www.con-cor.com/Labelle.html

 

The Labelle site with details.

 

Stephen.

[John R Smith]

Just to mention that I was not suggesting that anyone else should rush out and purchase the lubricants I use - they are just what I have lying around that I have used for years and my tube of Moly grease will outlast me, I am sure.

 

One thing that has occurred to me is  that there is an increasing use these days by makers such as Heljan to fit their locos with trains of nylon gears. I can't say that I am terribly keen on these gears, but Heljan apply some sort of white grease to lube them which is presumably safe for nylon - does anybody know what this grease is?

 

John

[bertiedog]

It appears to be white Silicon Grease, which Labelle do with PTFE in it, I have used this for 30 years or so.

Nylon is utterly immune to any normal grease, oil, or solvent! There are solvents but only extremely dangerous types used in industry.

[MiDAS]

Standby for shock horror.

I use Continuously Variable Transmission fluid. It must be the Fully synthetic type not the partially synthetic. Doesn't smell wonderful but does the job

Terry

[RTJ]

In the Dec 2011 version of 'Model Rail', George Dent tested some lubricants. His scores were:

 

1.Hob-E-Lube Gear Lube - 80%

2. Labelle 108 80% - 'best all-round oil'.

3. Hob-E-Lube White Grease.-70%

4. Labelle 134.- 70%

5. Peco Power-Lube - 60% (Am I right that Bob A won't have this in his workshop?)

6. Needlepoint oiler - 70%

 

As a footnote Carr's Micro-Oil and Micro-Grease get recommendations too - but no score for some reason.

 

Hope this helps.

 

BW

 

Richard.

 

(I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy)

[jimbo]

Many thanks to All !

 

Jim

[Poggy1165]

Some very nice oil can be had from ABC Gears. It's mainly intended for lubricating model locomotives, but as I found the other day, it also works with recalcitrant garden gate locks. (I had no other oil to hand, honest!)

[daifly]

A useful note here from Martin Wynne - related to his 85A Hunslet but, perhaps, relevant in other areas. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/15931-bury-thorn-sons/page-13&do=findComment&comment=1152158

[bertiedog]

I expect the notes on non conductivity of silicone grease were given in good faith, but issues with it would be confined to 4 wheeled split frame locos, entirely reliant  on the axles conducting all the power.

 

In practice with most locos te return path is shared with several axles at once, and the chances are low that they will all be out of contact.

Silicone grease and oil has been used for Models for over 40 years with no problem.

 

In a perfect bearing, yes the lube stops electrical contact, but not in practical model bearings, with imperfections to the surfaces, There is arcing in bearing, but usually at higher voltages than we use. The grease gets a low level of contamination from wear and oxide in use and conducts anyway. The same contamination occurs with any grease, the arcing does not increase it much at low currents.

 

We worked with research into this for instruments used by oil companies to test oil in bearings and the passage of electricity was a minor issue.

 

There are conducting greases and oils made, but they are not in general kind to plastics.

A good general thick grease is Vaseline BPC, which will conduct and is fairly safe with plastics. but Silicon oil and grease is completely safe, and the chances of it stopping a loco running or corroding the bearings are next to non existent.

[Simond]

Bertiedog

 

Could you clarify your sources please? I trust the "usual disclaimers" apply?

 

The loco concerned was an 0-6-0 Austerity saddle tank. I believe it had a rigid, largely plastic, chassis. The advice was provided by the supplier.

 

A brief Internet search will confirm that as expected, Vaseline is clearly not conductive. Just to make sure I did a quick experiment by separating two scraps of brass with Rizla papers, thus creating a layer of Vaseline approximately 0.04mm thick - even on the 200MegOhm range, my multimeter couldn't detect any conductivity at all. Similar levels of insulation may be expected from all mineral oils, unless conductive additives are used. Synthetics, vegetable and animal oils may differ, eg the latter two may contain water.

 

Conduction of stray, or return currents through bearings causing pitting & corrosion is a well known failure mode, particularly in rolling element bearings, and in many cases, slip rings or contacts are fitted to rotating shafts specifically to avoid such currents passing through them. Admittedly this is typically higher voltages & currents, but even at galvanic cell level (dissimilar metals in sea water) it is common practice to bond the rudder and prop shafts of vessels to prevent corrosion of the external metal, and pitting of the shafts and bearings.

 

All bearings, indeed all surfaces, have imperfections, from the level of asperities to gross machining marks: attempting to prevent the asperities grinding into one another is pretty much why lubricants are required. Models are likely to operate in boundary lubrication conditions, certainly not dynamic, nor static pressure and as I indicated earlier, tooth loadings are not in the EP range either (It would be impossible to use plastic gear wheels if it were) and bearing pressures are much less again, if only because the area is hugely bigger. Boundary lubrication indicates that there will be contact between the bearing surfaces, (which is how the current is carried) and the lubricant's function is to prevent galling, and flush out wear particles. In this respect, a light oil, replenished as needed, will be better than a grease. The lubricant will never carry an appreciable current.

 

I would also note that getting silicone oils onto surfaces that will be painted, will make good paint adherence much more difficult or impossible to achieve, as a direct consequence of the advantages of the silicone products, adherence to the surface, lubricity and insolubility, for which reason they are banned from most car assembly plants. This alone seems to me to be a good reason to avoid their use on models.

 

Best

Simon

[bertiedog]

Then I would write and tell Labelle their products available for 40years are wrong? The reference to Vaseline was from GPO research at Dollis Hill, in connection with power joints and sliding surface pickups. Plain Vaseline does not conduct, but it does quicker in use than other greases.

 

The post was not about lubrication of a model being built but lubrication in use, where the paint issue does not really apply. All silicon should be applied after finishing.

There are massive differences between a precision shaft and a model axle bearing, and pitting would be a minor issue. A few minutes use un lubricated would do more damage than any electrolytic action would.

[Nearholmer]

Both plastic-safe, one for bearings, the other for gears, neither dies-out or goes sticky, and they both work as well on old things (once cleaned) as on new.

 

And that bottle of oil is about twenty five years old - use sparingly.

 

Kevin