New 'On-time' targets proposed

[GreedyHarry]

Yes, I've suggested something similar in the past, to those who tut and moan at every minute or two of a delay - try driving the same route every day by car, at different times of the day, different times of year, and timing your journey. Try to do it in exactly the same time every time. And not just end to end, but passing the same waypoints at the same times too. Regardless of weather. Or the football match that's on. Or helping some lost tourists, waiting for an elderly woman or two, and having to all funnel in to one lane because a car has broken down in lane 1. Good luck. Of course, we could always have a different timetable for the days when its snows, rains, every second Thursday when slow old Mrs Jones goes shopping, the days when a car breaks down on a busy roundabout, and if we published them all in advance that would solve the problem...

Remarkably the above scenarios are carried out under a regulatory regime where 99% of services can be no more than 5 minutes late at any timing point or they are deemed to have not run. Any deviation from that target can lead to the full wrath of the Traffic Commissioner being heaped upon you with punishments from fines, removal of Transport Manager's 'good repute' to reductions in vehicles operated or removal of an operators licence. It's no wonder I left that industry!

[Edwin_m]

Sometimes you do - driving to the station is one obvious relevent example. I just don't think that a minute late and you'll miss your connection is reasonable (and I'd hate to be in such a rush that I need that even when everything is on time, far better to have a slightly longer but less stressful journey). Miss a connection because you're five minutes late and it's reasonable to grumble about the railway, miss one because it's one minute late and you should grumble about yourself.

But if you're driving to meet a deadline you should allow extra time, typically setting out 5-10min earlier on a short journey.  Catching a train that makes a connection you are constrained to arrive at the connecting station when the train does, or get the previous train which could be an hour or more earlier.  Tickets sold online with seat reservations also reserve by default on the first available service departing after the incoming train's scheduled arrival plus the station's connecting time, even if the punctuality record of the first train makes this an unrealistic aspiration. 

 

I agree the connecting time should allow the connection to be made even if the train is slightly late, and in my view that "acceptable" lateness (from the passenger point of view) should be closer to 5min than 1min.  But when long-distance trains are allowed to be 10min late while still claiming "on time" by some measures, either all connections off them must be planned to be ridiculously long or

[Dunsignalling]

Sounds like another a job creation scheme for those in the DfT who consider it their mission in life to bash NR.

 

There are so many random things that can go wrong in the course of a train journey that 1 minute is completely unrealistic. Would you like prefer your journey to be five or  ten minutes longer on the odd occasion when something does go wrong or every time you travel because allowances for problems that might arise have been built in?

 

You wouldn't plan a road journey based on the best time you could do it in but a railway timetable is. If travelling to an important appointment by car, I work on the worst time I've done it in previously and add ten minutes to be on the safe side. The railway could do the same but I doubt many of us would like the result.

 

If arrival time is vital, it's only sensible to take the train before the one that just does it to give you peace of mind. Murphy's Law states that any train which has been dead on time for the past month will get delayed on the day it really matters to you.  

 

Another problem is that one almost never sees trains regain lost time these days, even when there is recovery time in the schedule, because the TOCs are more interested in saving fuel unless the delay was one of their own making.

 

Tighter targets on punctuality = slacker timetabling to make them achievable. The same thing happened over waiting lists/times in the NHS.

 

John

[PaulRhB]

It rarely seems to occur to people bashing the British railway system that the much vaunted continental systems achieve punctuality in two ways.

Longish 5 minute dwell times at many stations to allow rapid recovery to on time rather than the common 2 or even 1 minute here.

'Sealed' systems with very few level crossings if at all removing the random factor introduced by the multiple occupation and level crossings used frequently by people who forget or don't bother to follow the rules. Here we only have CTRL and Docklands that are immune to that.

Comparing times to the expresses of old that priority over everything as it was all the same company ignores the way the delay system is now set up putting TOC vs TOC and NR trying to minimise overall delay so there is a chance of recovery.

The system can't allow for holding a train going towards a single line junction if the opposing train is late. So you have to call up Control and suggest holding it at a station to help punters rather than standing it at the junction just so it passes the station and junction timing points on time. If there's a third train involved you can use that as a regulating reason to hold until that has passed.

[PaulRhB]

Just as a matter of interest we have multiple timing points on our panel that can be used in a trains schedule.

So we have three stations with timing points, five junction ones and one at a level crossing.

Salisbury itself has several recording points within the station for platforms and sidings all triggered as trains occupy certain tracks.

[Reorte]

But if you're driving to meet a deadline you should allow extra time, typically setting out 5-10min earlier on a short journey.  Catching a train that makes a connection you are constrained to arrive at the connecting station when the train does, or get the previous train which could be an hour or more earlier.  Tickets sold online with seat reservations also reserve by default on the first available service departing after the incoming train's scheduled arrival plus the station's connecting time, even if the punctuality record of the first train makes this an unrealistic aspiration. 

The equivalent of setting out earlier for a car journey is to allow more time for a connection, and treating any connection where a minute late will mean you miss it as as useful as one that's scheduled to leave a minute before your train is due to arrive. You might have to wait an hour or leave an hour earlier, sure, but it doesn't change the odds of having to do that.

 

Online bookings allow a certain time for connections, it won't book you on a train scheduled to leave a minute after your first one is due to arrive. At most you'll get the option to take that ticket, with a warning that it allows little time for a connection, but will have a later one offered too.

[The Stationmaster]

Just as a matter of interest we have multiple timing points on our panel that can be used in a trains schedule.

So we have three stations with timing points, five junction ones and one at a level crossing.

Salisbury itself has several recording points within the station for platforms and sidings all triggered as trains occupy certain tracks.

 

And hopefully somebody somewhere has all the offset details to convert the trigger point to the timing point

[roythebus]

To add to IWCR's post, as his name suggests he lives on the Isle of Wight (hello Pete), where the train service has to be 40/20 minute intervals because of the daft track rationalisation of years ago. So a 30/30 interval is just not possible. But then the Island Line has probably the best punctuality and reliability of any of the TOCs despite the stock being 75 years old!

[Coryton]

To add to IWCR's post, as his name suggests he lives on the Isle of Wight (hello Pete), where the train service has to be 40/20 minute intervals because of the daft track rationalisation of years ago. So a 30/30 interval is just not possible. But then the Island Line has probably the best punctuality and reliability of any of the TOCs despite the stock being 75 years old!

 

And - presumably - if the train waited for the ferry, it would then make subsequent trains late and people would miss the ferry going the other way...

 

I must admit the one time I got that ferry it was late and I did miss the train and I was a bit unimpressed. But I can see why it happens.

 

Even if the timetable could be re-worked to allow - say - half an hour between train and ferry, that then makes everybody half an hour late all the time, rather than 20/40 minutes late some of the time...

 

 

The equivalent of setting out earlier for a car journey is to allow more time for a connection, and treating any connection where a minute late will mean you miss it as as useful as one that's scheduled to leave a minute before your train is due to arrive. You might have to wait an hour or leave an hour earlier, sure, but it doesn't change the odds of having to do that.

 

Online bookings allow a certain time for connections, it won't book you on a train scheduled to leave a minute after your first one is due to arrive. At most you'll get the option to take that ticket, with a warning that it allows little time for a connection, but will have a later one offered too.

 

But what you won't get (or at least I've never seen) is the option to reserve onto a train (say) 15 minutes later rather than the one 5 minutes later, if the station connection time permits the 5 minute one. I've never seen a booking system offer me a connection under the station connection time even with a warning - I'm curious which ones do.

 

I have a few times made the same connection which theoretically left one minute before I arrived. There seems to be a few minutes recovery time added to the arrival time. (Strategic positioning to be by the door which stops nearest to the steps to change platform helps too).

 

Remarkably the above scenarios are carried out under a regulatory regime where 99% of services can be no more than 5 minutes late at any timing point or they are deemed to have not run. Any deviation from that target can lead to the full wrath of the Traffic Commissioner being heaped upon you with punishments from fines, removal of Transport Manager's 'good repute' to reductions in vehicles operated or removal of an operators licence. It's no wonder I left that industry!

 

It is odd that bus companies are in principle held liable for delays despite - unlike the railways - having utterly no control over how much traffic is put into the system. Hence the existence of school-term and non school-term timings (or sometimes warnings that buses may run 10 minutes later than shown during school terms - I don't know how you register such a timetable). This is why I don't like "congestion" being given as a reason for rail delays. For roads, it is an explanation in itself. For railways it has to be the result of something else happening - it's not because an open access operator turned up that day and ran some extra trains so there weren't enough platforms to go round.

 

However, I don't know to what extent the bus regulations are enforced. Many buses have GPS systems now so in principle it could be monitored, but does the Traffic Commissioner have access to that information? My only two experiences are a service that was almost always 20 minutes late* (despite running very early morning so no traffic to speak of) over a period of more than 2 years without anything being done, and - elsewhere - a service that was often cancelled but when anybody complained the bus company told them that the bus ran and they must have been mistaken or got to the stop too late.

 

* I could have tried to get something done myself but I spent much of that time fighting via a local councillor to reverse ill-thought out service reductions and fighting on too many fronts at once doesn't usually work well.

[RRU]

I have worked in the bus and coach industry for 54 years and since 1997 have been based in the old goods yard at Honley station.

The garage is the goods shed so we looked out straight at the station.

West Yorkshire PTE (Metro) offered a tendered service to connect the local villages to Honley station, which we ran. The timetable was drawn up around the railway timetable so as to connect with the train on every trip. When the train timetable changed, so did the bus one.

Right from day one I don`t think a day has passed where the train has met the bus on every trip. The bus has been there but the train has been late on at least one trip per day. Sometimes up to 20 mins late.

Why?

The train runs on it`s own private track, it`s schedule is worked out to avoid conflicts, the driver knows in advance how many stops to make and where. None of these apply to the bus, in fact most of the route is hail and ride, which means the bus can be stopped anywhere. But despite all this it runs to time. It has to do because Metro regularly put a checker on board to make sure every thing is run to their regulations.

[Zomboid]

Without wanting to cause a thread drift, the IOW has the track infrastructure to support a 20 minute interval service, but cannot manage a 30 minute one without a loop at Brading. So its stuck with a 20/40 service.

[Reorte]

I've never seen a booking system offer me a connection under the station connection time even with a warning - I'm curious which ones do.

Hmm, you've got me there, but I'm convinced that I'm not imaging it!

[PaulRhB]

And hopefully somebody somewhere has all the offset details to convert the trigger point to the timing point

Yes we had two guys come down and do a lot of work on that early in the year as they were known to be out and a new simulation showed a problem that was worse than the reality. Happily we were able to show where the computer was over cooking it and where it needed more slack. Because it's part of a much wider project it will be May 2017 before its all worked into the timetable though as they need to crunch the data everywhere first. At least the system highlighted issues which led to action and we were able to help fine tune the data and suggest other things to consider such as overlaps and approach controls real impact.

[Coryton]

The train runs on it`s own private track, it`s schedule is worked out to avoid conflicts, the driver knows in advance how many stops to make and where. None of these apply to the bus, in fact most of the route is hail and ride, which means the bus can be stopped anywhere. But despite all this it runs to time. It has to do because Metro regularly put a checker on board to make sure every thing is run to their regulations.

 

People have given various examples above of why trains get late and why they are out of control of the rail industry. The main difference in impact from buses would be that buses are less susceptible to knock-on effects. The key there I think is when you said the "schedule is worked out to avoid conflicts". This is necessary for trains in a way that isn't for buses where conflicts are much less important.

 

A train can rarely overtake another one even if it is a fast train stuck behind a stopping one. If two buses are scheduled to turn up at a bus stop five minutes apart but actually arrive at once, they can usually both still load and unload simultaneously (Lothian excepted), but this isn't generally allowed (even if actually possible) when two trains turn up and would like to use the same platform. A train also often requires two crew members to both turn up on time, who often come in on another train which may be delayed. A late train off a single track branch makes the following train wait to get onto the branch. All of these can happen a long way away and the effects ripple down.

 

I assume the train you met ran into Huddersfield. If instead it turned round at Lockwood and turned round before Barnsley in the other direction, happily shuttling up and down all day, I think you'd find on most days it would do very well. It's the interactions with the rest of the system that cause problems (and I suspect if your bus had to run into Huddersfield rather than Honley it might find it harder to keep to time in the rush hour).

[RRU]

 

 

when two trains turn up and would like to use the same platform.

 

     But this does not happen on the Huddersfield - Sheffield line.

 

A train also often requires two crew members to both turn up on time, who often come in on another train which may be delayed

 

    We are back to the same question ----  Why is it late?

 

. A late train off a single track branch makes the following train wait to get onto the branch. All of these can happen a long way away and the effects ripple down.

 

    From Barnsley  to Huddersfield it is single track with a long passing loop between Stocksmoor and what was Clayton West junction. Two  minutes either way and they can both pass without causing either one to wait.

 

I assume the train you met ran into Huddersfield. If instead it turned round at Lockwood and turned round before Barnsley in the other direction, happily shuttling up and down all day, I think you'd find on most days it would do very well. It's the interactions with the rest of the system that cause problems (and I suspect if your bus had to run into Huddersfield rather than Honley it might find it harder to keep to time in the rush hour).

 

    There is no holdup at Huddersfield as there is a dedicated platform for Sheffield trains, which is at the end of the branch.

 

    There are many buses from the Home Valley that run into Huddersfield at all times of the day and night. Guess what  - on time.

 

[Coryton]

 

 

 

when two trains turn up and would like to use the same platform.

 

     But this does not happen on the Huddersfield - Sheffield line.

 

A train also often requires two crew members to both turn up on time, who often come in on another train which may be delayed

 

    We are back to the same question ----  Why is it late?

 

. A late train off a single track branch makes the following train wait to get onto the branch. All of these can happen a long way away and the effects ripple down.

 

    From Barnsley  to Huddersfield it is single track with a long passing loop between Stocksmoor and what was Clayton West junction. Two  minutes either way and they can both pass without causing either one to wait.

 

I assume the train you met ran into Huddersfield. If instead it turned round at Lockwood and turned round before Barnsley in the other direction, happily shuttling up and down all day, I think you'd find on most days it would do very well. It's the interactions with the rest of the system that cause problems (and I suspect if your bus had to run into Huddersfield rather than Honley it might find it harder to keep to time in the rush hour).

 

    There is no holdup at Huddersfield as there is a dedicated platform for Sheffield trains, which is at the end of the branch.

 

    There are many buses from the Home Valley that run into Huddersfield at all times of the day and night. Guess what  - on time.

 

 

 

It's a while since I've been through Huddersfield. Does the Penistone line have its own track into a dedicated platform at Huddersfield, or does it share the double track line into Huddersfield and then turn off into a bay platform? It's a busy line through Huddersfield. You pointed out that they run as far as Sheffield, so between Barnsley and Sheffield they are sharing the line with other trains. Long distance trains pass through Sheffield (e.g. Penzance to Glasgow). Plenty of chances to get stuck behind another train.

 

There might be no problems with trains on the Penistone line having to share platforms, wait for a branch line etc. but this could happen somewhere a long way away and the effect ripples down.

 

As for what causes delays in the first place, off the top of my head I can think of: trespass incidents, animals on the line, car blocking level crossing, delays due to passengers in wheelchair boarding/alighting from trains, passenger illness, poor weather, and yes many things that in principle are within the control of the rail industry - track circuit failure, train failure, staff turning up late...

 

It's a very long time since I caught a bus to the Holme Valley (a lovely part of the country) and Huddersfield may be mercifully free of rush hour traffic jams, but my experience of buses in general is not that they are a paragon of timekeeping (no matter what the regulations may say). Having lived in various parts of the UK, my experience is that bus timekeeping is generally quite erratic, and that MOST of the time trains are much more punctual. However, when things go wrong on the railways they often go very wrong because of the knock-on effects.

 

We can argue over whether railway infrastructure could or should be more reliable, or whether the railways should spend more money on resilience (spare crews/trains on stand-by) but I don't think the fact that trains on the Penistone line are sometimes late is a mystery or a result of railway companies being incompetent. I believe a lot of effort goes into delay monitoring and attribution and if there was no good reason for trains on a particular line being late I am fairly sure that something would be done about it.

[Wheatley]

The train runs on it`s own private track, it`s schedule is worked out to avoid conflicts, the driver knows in advance how many stops to make and where. None of these apply to the bus, in fact most of the route is hail and ride, which means the bus can be stopped anywhere.

If the bus (and every other vehicle in front of it and behind it) had to wait until the road was clear up to the next road junction before it set off, and the road was only wide enough to go one way at a time or two-way with no overtaking or filter lanes, and that applied on every road between every road junction, the bus wouldn't be on time either.  

[rockershovel]

It might be instructive to know how many travellers have train connections to make, and how long those connections actually were? I had an 11-minute connection at Edinburgh for Aberdeen a while ago, but most of my connections are in the 30-45 minute range.

[31A]

It's a while since I've been through Huddersfield. Does the Penistone line have its own track into a dedicated platform at Huddersfield, or does it share the double track line into Huddersfield and then turn off into a bay platform? It's a busy line through Huddersfield. You pointed out that they run as far as Sheffield, so between Barnsley and Sheffield they are sharing the line with other trains. Long distance trains pass through Sheffield (e.g. Penzance to Glasgow). Plenty of chances to get stuck behind another train.

 

There might be no problems with trains on the Penistone line having to share platforms, wait for a branch line etc. but this could happen somewhere a long way away and the effect ripples down.

 

As for what causes delays in the first place, off the top of my head I can think of: trespass incidents, animals on the line, car blocking level crossing, delays due to passengers in wheelchair boarding/alighting from trains, passenger illness, poor weather, and yes many things that in principle are within the control of the rail industry - track circuit failure, train failure, staff turning up late...

 

It's a very long time since I caught a bus to the Holme Valley (a lovely part of the country) and Huddersfield may be mercifully free of rush hour traffic jams, but my experience of buses in general is not that they are a paragon of timekeeping (no matter what the regulations may say). Having lived in various parts of the UK, my experience is that bus timekeeping is generally quite erratic, and that MOST of the time trains are much more punctual. However, when things go wrong on the railways they often go very wrong because of the knock-on effects.

 

We can argue over whether railway infrastructure could or should be more reliable, or whether the railways should spend more money on resilience (spare crews/trains on stand-by) but I don't think the fact that trains on the Penistone line are sometimes late is a mystery or a result of railway companies being incompetent. I believe a lot of effort goes into delay monitoring and attribution and if there was no good reason for trains on a particular line being late I am fairly sure that something would be done about it.

 

 

The Penistone line trains run into Huddersfield station over their own single line from Springwood Jn. (the reversible 'Branch') which leads into Platform 1 completely independently of the Up and Down main lines used by Trans Pennine trains west of Huddersfield station.  Delays to Penistone line trains are much more likely to arise from the Sheffield end of the route, where there are various potential conflicts in the Sheffield station area then having to fit in with other trains on the busy Sheffield-Meadowhall section, including long distance Cross Country and Trans Pennine services which can import delay from elsewhere in the country.  On the Penistone line itself, delayed Huddersfield-bound trains can then have an impact on southbound services due to the single line sections on the route.  Passing places are the loop at Penistone station and a double line section between Clayton West Jn.-Shepley-Stocksmoor (just over two miles), which is where the regular service is booked to pass.

[RRU]

My point is that a train on a simple one hour journey that has a clear run every trip can run to time for most of the day, but be five minutes late on one of them.

 

To me five minutes late is not on time because the connecting bus is just leaving and any passengers coming out of the station can see the back end of the bus going down the road.

 

If I am making a train journey that involves a change of train then I always catch the train one ahead of the connecting train just to make sure I am there in time. Over years of train travel I have found this to be necessary. But I should not have to do this.

 

I, as a lifelong rail enthusiast, don`t mind standing on a railway platform for any length of time - I can stand there all day if there is something interesting going on - but for someone that uses the train purely for transport will say "The train`s late again"