retbsignalman Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Hi, In the sidings and shed part of the layout there are two turnouts that for some reason cause not only the train passing over to stall, but a temporary (2-3 second) short that affects the whole layout. Not every movement does it and its not always the same stock causing it..... All the turnouts are (correctly) wired to hex frog juicers. The turnouts in question are both Peco, one being a medium left coming off a double slip leading to plain line sidings, the other being a large Y coming off a large left, again leading to plain line sidings. Tracing it is proving difficult as not everything does it every time.....does anyone have any suggestions please? Ta in advance, G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVE1562 Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Hi, In the sidings and shed part of the layout there are two turnouts that for some reason cause not only the train passing over to stall, but a temporary (2-3 second) short that affects the whole layout. Not every movement does it and its not always the same stock causing it..... All the turnouts are (correctly) wired to hex frog juicers. The turnouts in question are both Peco, one being a medium left coming off a double slip leading to plain line sidings, the other being a large Y coming off a large left, again leading to plain line sidings. Tracing it is proving difficult as not everything does it every time.....does anyone have any suggestions please? Ta in advance, G the short could be coming from the between the switch rail and stock rail as stock passes over it.... have a look at Brian Lambert website on dcc electrofrog points.. can be cured by removing the link fitted by peco and then the stock rails linked to the switch rails... I have done this and have no problems... dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVE1562 Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Here"s a pic to help... remove link wires indicated........add link wires to switch blade and stock rails...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
retbsignalman Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 Hi, In the sidings and shed part of the layout there are two turnouts that for some reason cause not only the train passing over to stall, but a temporary (2-3 second) short that affects the whole layout. Not every movement does it and its not always the same stock causing it..... All the turnouts are (correctly) wired to hex frog juicers. The turnouts in question are both Peco, one being a medium left coming off a double slip leading to plain line sidings, the other being a large Y coming off a large left, again leading to plain line sidings. Tracing it is proving difficult as not everything does it every time.....does anyone have any suggestions please? Ta in advance, G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Hi, In the sidings and shed part of the layout there are two turnouts that for some reason cause not only the train passing over to stall, but a temporary (2-3 second) short that affects the whole layout. Not every movement does it and its not always the same stock causing it..... All the turnouts are (correctly) wired to hex frog juicers. The turnouts in question are both Peco, one being a medium left coming off a double slip leading to plain line sidings, the other being a large Y coming off a large left, again leading to plain line sidings. Tracing it is proving difficult as not everything does it every time.....does anyone have any suggestions please? Ta in advance, G Did you isolate the crossing from the switch rails? Did you bond the switch rails to the running rails? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted June 29, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 29, 2016 In powering the frog via the HFJ did you cut the bonding of the blade rail to the frog underneath? And then bond the blade rail instead to the adjacent stock rail? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Frog juicers rely on detecting a short - do you have enough power from your command station to provide power during the short? are the frog juicers fed with fat wire? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Have you tried checking all of the remaining factory wiring in the frog is still live (the V and both approach rails) and the gaps haven't closed up...? I found a mystery short last night and then dead frog rails, and concluded one of the wires underneath must have become detatched, unfortunately the turnout couldn't be lifted to check so I had to solder additional wires in. For the record the switch and stock rails are bonded, frog switching being done through a tortoise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVE1562 Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Have you tried checking all of the remaining factory wiring in the frog is still live (the V and both approach rails) and the gaps haven't closed up...? I found a mystery short last night and then dead frog rails, and concluded one of the wires underneath must have become detatched, unfortunately the turnout couldn't be lifted to check so I had to solder additional wires in. For the record the switch and stock rails are bonded, frog switching being done through a tortoise. On a peco point the switch blades are linked to the frog so when the frog is powered they become the same polarity ..the short is caused by a wheel touching the switch rail and stock rail as it passes through with conflicting polarity ... removing the link separates the frog from these rails, the switch rails then being powered by the additional link , then the polarity's is the same..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 On a peco point the switch blades are linked to the frog so when the frog is powered they become the same polarity ..the short is caused by a wheel touching the switch rail and stock rail as it passes through with conflicting polarity ... removing the link separates the frog from these rails, the switch rails then being powered by the additional link , then the polarity's is the same..... Not wishing to hijack the OP's thread, but that is what I have done. I didn't want to say I've wired mine properly, because we'd only be inundated with modellers saying how fantastic they are because they use the switch rails to power the frog on their 40yr old layout and only occasionally have to clean the contact areas before every running session and therefore such modifications are unnecessary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
retbsignalman Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 Hi! I've cut the two bonding wires and linked the stock rails to the switch blade rails as standard on all peco turnouts, and haven't had these difficulties before..... I'll have a look at the thickness of the wire supplying the HFJ later. It may well be a case of bonding wires needed too. Time to get the meter out it seems! Thank you all for your suggestions!Graeme Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
retbsignalman Posted July 15, 2016 Author Share Posted July 15, 2016 Hi! Problem appears to be solved! Having checked the wiring, swapped the offending turnouts around, exchanged the hex frog juicers with a spare and checked the back to back gauges of wheelsets all to no avail....... Closer observation of a Class 33 proceeding very slowly over two large radius turnouts in succession in the facing direction revealed that its wheelbase fits nicely between the hexfrog juicer (hfj) fed frog of one point just in time to roll onto the next hfj fed frog resulting in a double 'short' which is one more than it can handle causing the momentary short affecting the whole layout. To sort this out I have now run the wire from one of these turnouts to the neighbouring hfj and vice versa! Big thank you to Eddie for your help! Cheers G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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