Birkenhead Joint Railway Coaching Stock

[ChrisN]

I am modelling the Cambrian Railway in 1895.  There were through coaches from Birkenhead, to Barmouth via Dolgelley, and Pwllheli via Afon Wen.  My question is how was the joint line run?  Was it LNWR trains, engine and stock to LNWR destinations, and GWR trains to GWR destinations, or a mixture?  I can find no drawings of Birkenhead coaches on HMRS so I assume that they did not survive, well at least until 1895.  If the first was true then LNWR stock would run to Pwllheli and GWR stock to Barmouth.

 

The only book I have seen advertised is post grouping although they may have run it the same way.  If anyone could provide an answer or point me in the direction of a book or reference I would be grateful.  If the answer is a book or reference I will post what I find back on here.

 

Thank you.

[Northroader]

The Birkenhead railway became the joint property of the GWR and LNWR way back, without getting a book out (as I'm at my daughters child minding) I would say mid 1850s. The loco fleet was split between the two companies and absorbed, and I can't see any original carriages lasting for long. The services were then worked by each companies rolling stock, although probably not mixed in together. The first trip I had on the line was early 1950s on a train of GWR stock from Paddington, with a Castle. It ran into the bay at Chester, and a Stanier 264T came on the back and took it on to Woodside. There was a need for the GWR to run through services off their system as their way of accessing Liverpool, whether the LNWR would have ranked through access from the Midlands and the South, as so important,is debatable, but of course it would have helped if you were going from Merseyside into North or mid Wales. Would the LNWR through coach from Birkenhead have gone Chester, then the branch direct through Malpas to Whitchurch, rather than round by Crewe? EDIT: Sorry, rereading your post the LNWR coach from Birkenhead only got to the north end after using the North Wales mainline, there was through LNWR coaches via Whitchurch, presumably Manchester - Aberystwyth?

[ChrisN]

The Birkenhead railway became the joint property of the GWR and LNWR way back, without getting a book out (as I'm at my daughters child minding) I would say mid 1850s. The loco fleet was split between the two companies and absorbed, and I can't see any original carriages lasting for long. The services were then worked by each companies rolling stock, although probably not mixed in together. The first trip I had on the line was early 1950s on a train of GWR stock from Paddington, with a Castle. It ran into the bay at Chester, and a Stanier 264T came on the back and took it on to Woodside. There was a need for the GWR to run through services off their system as their way of accessing Liverpool, whether the LNWR would have ranked through access from the Midlands and the South, as so important,is debatable, but of course it would have helped if you were going from Merseyside into North or mid Wales. Would the LNWR through coach from Birkenhead have gone Chester, then the branch direct through Malpas to Whitchurch, rather than round by Crewe? EDIT: Sorry, rereading your post the LNWR coach from Birkenhead only got to the north end after using the North Wales mainline, there was through LNWR coaches via Whitchurch, presumably Manchester - Aberystwyth?

 

Thank you.  It was in the middle of 19th century that the company was absorbed by the big two.  I have it from somewhere that the coaches from Birkenhead to Barmouth were GWR.  They would have gone to Chester and then via, I assume Ruabon, then Dolgelley.  Looking at it again the through coach from Manchester Exchange also came via the same route and arrived at the same time.  The coaches from Manchester London Road went via Whitchurch and then to both Aberystwyth and Barmouth, while the Manchester Central coaches went via Wrexham and on to Aberystwyth, all year and to Barmouth in the summer months.

 

I seemed to have the impression, although I cannot remember why, that it was GWR stock, or at least GWR trains with other stock.  If the two companies did not mix their stock then I will have a lot of GWR through coaches sitting in my sidings.

[Northroader]

Besides its 'main line', The Birkenhead Rly. had a route N.E. from Chester through Helsby to Walton Jc., on the LNWR just south of Warrington. This was used by the GWR for a Chester to Manchester Exchange service, allowing uncouth northerners a look at a proper train. Presumably the through coaches from Birkenhead and Manchester Exchange were GWR joined at Chester and on via Ruabon, Bala Jc. and Dolgelley. Through coaches from Manchester London Rd would be LNWR stock routed through Crewe, Whitchurch and Welshpool. Coaches from Manchester Central?? presumably these belonged to MSLR/ GCR/ CLC, route ? CLC Northwich and Chester, then on W, M, C Q to Wrexham and the Cambrian branch ? It sounds a bit like the slow boat to China. Still, it does give an excuse for some different firms coaches to appear. In this connection, did anything appear on the coast line having penetrated north from Merthyr and Dowlais?

[ChrisN]

Besides its 'main line', The Birkenhead Rly. had a route N.E. from Chester through Helsby to Walton Jc., on the LNWR just south of Warrington. This was used by the GWR for a Chester to Manchester Exchange service, allowing uncouth northerners a look at a proper train. Presumably the through coaches from Birkenhead and Manchester Exchange were GWR joined at Chester and on via Ruabon, Bala Jc. and Dolgelley. Through coaches from Manchester London Rd would be LNWR stock routed through Crewe, Whitchurch and Welshpool. Coaches from Manchester Central?? presumably these belonged to MSLR/ GCR/ CLC, route ? CLC Northwich and Chester, then on W, M, C Q to Wrexham and the Cambrian branch ? It sounds a bit like the slow boat to China. Still, it does give an excuse for some different firms coaches to appear. In this connection, did anything appear on the coast line having penetrated north from Merthyr and Dowlais?

Hi,

Thank you.  The Manchester Exchange were MSLR, and Andy G is helping me make a couple of coaches using his Silhouette cutter.  The livery was mahogany, so nice and easy!     In 1895 the ex Liverpool Lime Street 12:00 noon, and the ex Manchester London Road 11:40, arrived at Barmouth @ 18:15 and the ex Manchester Exchange 13:05 and the ex Birkenhead 14:30 arrived at Barmouth@ 18:50.

 

The Manchester Central only ran in the summer to Barmouth, as did Midland through coaches.  The South Wales coaches at least until 1904 only went to Aberystwyth.  They may have later as the attitude to the Coast line by the railway appears to have changed with time.

 

I am not sure where I got that the Birkenhead etc. would have been GWR coaches but what you have said has confirmed it and given more background information.  I now need to find some more, and different GWR, preferably six wheel coaches to add to my trains.  Who said coaches were boring.

[Brassey]

 

I model the Joint Line but in the period 1912 and have copies of various carriage workings including a complete July to Sept 1915 Diagram of Carriage Working.  This includes a "GW Barmouth Set" which ran between Birkenhead, Chester, Ruabon and then presumably onto Barmouth.  So you are correct that they were GWR coaches; there are no separate individual through carriages that were attached to other trains that I can see out of Birkenhead.  I do not know the composition of the "Barmouth Set" as it is not specified but a number of other sets were indeed six wheelers.

 

FYI the (ex Liverpool/Manchester) 11.40 am Crewe to Aberystwyth and Barmouth was, Break Van (Cam), Compo (Cam) (42ft), LNWR Break Compo (42ft), LNWR Break Compo (42ft), 3rd (Cam), Compo (Cam) (42ft), Break 3rd (Cam), Break Compo (Cam), LNWR Compo, LNWR Break 3rd, LNWR Break Compo

 

I am sure that I read somewhere that it was standard practice on the Birkenhead line that opposing motive power was used so that an LNWR loco would pull a GWR train and vice versa.  There is plenty of photographic evidence of this but also plenty of evidence to the contrary.  Not all trains were "joint" so would be under the stewardship of the owning company for both loco and stock.

 

The carriages were not generally mixed and would be in either companies "sets" but individual "through carriages" from the other company (or companies) might be added; so a GWR train could have an LNWR through coach on the end.  Or a complete LNWR train destined for the mid Wales line might be added to a GWR train en route but then split at Craven Arms for example.

 

I find the make up of these trains quite fascinating and indeed far from boring and is pretty much what motivates me to model this period. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Peter

[The Stationmaster]

The Birkenhead railway was vested by the Birkenhead Railway Act of 1 August 1859 which was basically a change of name for the Birkenhead, Lancashire and Cheshire Junction Railway in which the Chester & Birkenhead Railway had been vested in 1847.  the Birkenhead Railway was vested jointly in the GWR  by the Birkenhead Railway (Vesting) Act of of July 1861.   The origins of the various lines which passed into joint ownership, and those which were built subsequently, varied considerably depending on whose Act had originally authorised their construction and which company's Acts authorised new construction after the GWR & LNWR takeover.

 

According to the RCTS history the loco fleet was split 50:50 between the GWR and LNWR (and probably something similar happened with rolling stock?)

[Edwardian]

I model the Joint Line but in the period 1912 and have copies of various carriage workings including a complete July to Sept 1915 Diagram of Carriage Working.  This includes a "GW Barmouth Set" which ran between Birkenhead, Chester, Ruabon and then presumably onto Barmouth.  So you are correct that they were GWR coaches; there are no separate individual through carriages that were attached to other trains that I can see out of Birkenhead.  I do not know the composition of the "Barmouth Set" as it is not specified but a number of other sets were indeed six wheelers.

 

FYI the (ex Liverpool/Manchester) 11.40 am Crewe to Aberystwyth and Barmouth was, Break Van (Cam), Compo (Cam) (42ft), LNWR Break Compo (42ft), LNWR Break Compo (42ft), 3rd (Cam), Compo (Cam) (42ft), Break 3rd (Cam), Break Compo (Cam), LNWR Compo, LNWR Break 3rd, LNWR Break Compo

 

I am sure that I read somewhere that it was standard practice on the Birkenhead line that opposing motive power was used so that an LNWR loco would pull a GWR train and vice versa.  There is plenty of photographic evidence of this but also plenty of evidence to the contrary.  Not all trains were "joint" so would be under the stewardship of the owning company for both loco and stock.

 

The carriages were not generally mixed and would be in either companies "sets" but individual "through carriages" from the other company (or companies) might be added; so a GWR train could have an LNWR through coach on the end.  Or a complete LNWR train destined for the mid Wales line might be added to a GWR train en route but then split at Craven Arms for example.

 

I find the make up of these trains quite fascinating and indeed far from boring and is pretty much what motivates me to model this period. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Peter

 

Fascinating stuff.  Presumably the 42' coaches are 8-wheeled, bogies, or, for the LNWR at least, radial, and it is tempting to assume that the others are 6-wheeled.  Would that be a fair assessment?

[Brassey]

"Fascinating stuff.  Presumably the 42' coaches are 8-wheeled, bogies, or, for the LNWR at least, radial, and it is tempting to assume that the others are 6-wheeled.  Would that be a fair assessment?"

 

The LNWR radials would likely to have been converted to 8 foot bogies by 1910 - 1915.  Then 42ft stock was also quite old by then; none are shown as being corridor but you might expect them to be lavatory stock.

 

The LNWR had few, if any, 6 wheel break thirds and break composites so I would expect these were more contemporary non corridor stock such as 50 footers.

 

I can't speak of the Cambrian stock but these could have been 6 wheel unless specified otherwise.

 

As far as the GWR Barmouth set goes, commonly 6 wheel sets in the area were made up , break van, 2x thirds, 2x compos, break van - permanently chained together.

 

​Edited as RMWeb will not allow me to reply quoting posts

 

[ChrisN]

I model the Joint Line but in the period 1912 and have copies of various carriage workings including a complete July to Sept 1915 Diagram of Carriage Working.  This includes a "GW Barmouth Set" which ran between Birkenhead, Chester, Ruabon and then presumably onto Barmouth.  So you are correct that they were GWR coaches; there are no separate individual through carriages that were attached to other trains that I can see out of Birkenhead.  I do not know the composition of the "Barmouth Set" as it is not specified but a number of other sets were indeed six wheelers.

 

FYI the (ex Liverpool/Manchester) 11.40 am Crewe to Aberystwyth and Barmouth was, Break Van (Cam), Compo (Cam) (42ft), LNWR Break Compo (42ft), LNWR Break Compo (42ft), 3rd (Cam), Compo (Cam) (42ft), Break 3rd (Cam), Break Compo (Cam), LNWR Compo, LNWR Break 3rd, LNWR Break Compo

 

I am sure that I read somewhere that it was standard practice on the Birkenhead line that opposing motive power was used so that an LNWR loco would pull a GWR train and vice versa.  There is plenty of photographic evidence of this but also plenty of evidence to the contrary.  Not all trains were "joint" so would be under the stewardship of the owning company for both loco and stock.

 

The carriages were not generally mixed and would be in either companies "sets" but individual "through carriages" from the other company (or companies) might be added; so a GWR train could have an LNWR through coach on the end.  Or a complete LNWR train destined for the mid Wales line might be added to a GWR train en route but then split at Craven Arms for example.

 

I find the make up of these trains quite fascinating and indeed far from boring and is pretty much what motivates me to model this period. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Peter

 

 

"Fascinating stuff.  Presumably the 42' coaches are 8-wheeled, bogies, or, for the LNWR at least, radial, and it is tempting to assume that the others are 6-wheeled.  Would that be a fair assessment?"

 

The LNWR radials would likely to have been converted to 8 foot bogies by 1910 - 1915.  Then 42ft stock was also quite old by then; none are shown as being corridor but you might expect them to be lavatory stock.

 

The LNWR had few, if any, 6 wheel break thirds and break composites so I would expect these were more contemporary non corridor stock such as 50 footers.

 

I can't speak of the Cambrian stock but these could have been 6 wheel unless specified otherwise.

 

As far as the GWR Barmouth set goes, commonly 6 wheel sets in the area were made up , break van, 2x thirds, 2x compos, break van - permanently chained together.

 

​Edited as RMWeb will not allow me to reply quoting posts

 

Thank you, this is very interesting.  Sorry for the slow reply but I have been away.  It is interesting that in 1895 that the Liverpool Lime Street coaches arrived on the same train as the Euston coaches.  I would think that it is more than possible that the main train was bound for Aberystwyth and the Barmouth Coaches were attached to another train.  The working timetable that I have does not go into detail and I have not tried to follow the connections back, partly because my Bradshaws is about nine months after my working timetable. 

 

Coaches from Manchester Exchange came through Dolgelley with the Birkenhead and Paddington coaches so I presume they were GWR stock.

 

The Cambrian 42ft would have been a tri-composite bogie coach and was one of their 'flagship' coaches and would have gone to Aberystwyth, I would think.  It is interesting to hear about the 'Barmouth Sets'.  There are pictures of complete trains made up of GWR stock around the time period that you model.  The information for 1895 and thereabouts is much more sketchy.  The timetable mostly shows trains from Dolgelley to Barmouth having a matching return so I would be surprised if there were whole trains coming through as they would not return I would think immediately.  The train that does not have a return is a train that has no connection from Ruabon and is in a diagram of coaches from Machynlleth, Barmouth, Barmouth Junc, Dolgelley, Barmouth, Machnylleth.

 

I have a diagram of how various LNWR coaches and Cambrian coaches were added together, broken up, and generally shunted around to get each to where it was intended to be as a final destination.  All interesting but what was significant was that the Cambrian train was made up of one local Cambrian coach, three Cambrian through vehicles and one LNWR van.  This was around 1910- 12 but I think it shows that Cambrian trains could be made up of mostly through stock, in some instances.  There were four trains from Machynlleth each day and only one had through coaches; two out of the four returning trains had through coaches.  The Dolgelley trains were quite obviously a set that had coaches attached.

 

I agree with you about the interest of he coaching stock.  I think I can run coaches from four different railways and hardly any two will be the same.

[Edwardian]

Thank you, this is very interesting.  Sorry for the slow reply but I have been away.  It is interesting that in 1895 that the Liverpool Lime Street coaches arrived on the same train as the Euston coaches.  I would think that it is more than possible that the main train was bound for Aberystwyth and the Barmouth Coaches were attached to another train.  The working timetable that I have does not go into detail and I have not tried to follow the connections back, partly because my Bradshaws is about nine months after my working timetable. 

 

Coaches from Manchester Exchange came through Dolgelley with the Birkenhead and Paddington coaches so I presume they were GWR stock.

 

The Cambrian 42ft would have been a tri-composite bogie coach and was one of their 'flagship' coaches and would have gone to Aberystwyth, I would think.  It is interesting to hear about the 'Barmouth Sets'.  There are pictures of complete trains made up of GWR stock around the time period that you model.  The information for 1895 and thereabouts is much more sketchy.  The timetable mostly shows trains from Dolgelley to Barmouth having a matching return so I would be surprised if there were whole trains coming through as they would not return I would think immediately.  The train that does not have a return is a train that has no connection from Ruabon and is in a diagram of coaches from Machynlleth, Barmouth, Barmouth Junc, Dolgelley, Barmouth, Machnylleth.

 

I have a diagram of how various LNWR coaches and Cambrian coaches were added together, broken up, and generally shunted around to get each to where it was intended to be as a final destination.  All interesting but what was significant was that the Cambrian train was made up of one local Cambrian coach, three Cambrian through vehicles and one LNWR van.  This was around 1910- 12 but I think it shows that Cambrian trains could be made up of mostly through stock, in some instances.  There were four trains from Machynlleth each day and only one had through coaches; two out of the four returning trains had through coaches.  The Dolgelley trains were quite obviously a set that had coaches attached.

 

I agree with you about the interest of he coaching stock.  I think I can run coaches from four different railways and hardly any two will be the same.

 

All very modern, that Cambrian Tri-composite.  As you know, my setting is a decade on, but the GE had really only just started to introduce bogie stock to East Anglia (the exception hitherto being the Royal Train). 

 

I may have misunderstood, but are you talking about through coaches on a local or stopping service?  I suspect that this was a fairly frequent occurrence, though I am mostly familiar with GW workings in Devon.  Through coaches could be detached from expresses to run to local destinations on stoppers or branch trains, e.g. 70' coaches ex-Paddington detached from a Down express, run on a stopper to Brent and then added to the branch train for Kingsbridge.  Also, on that line, local stoppers could be formed using express coaches as part of a balancing working.  This is because the S Devon mainline was one where there was generally more traffic in the Down than like traffic in the Up.  I wonder if there were other routes where this was a factor?

 

I realise that I am digressing, but is not this just another example of the varied and interesting workings of the steam-age railway?  Add a mix of companies and the varied opulence of pre-Grouping liveries and it is so much more interesting than later periods.  It is an ideal combination of a variety in stock and livery and interest in workings.  Nowadays we seem to have variety in liveries, but very standardised stock and not that much interest in the daily workings.  Go back far enough in the history of Nationalised railways and more variety in stock and workings, often inter-regional, is found, but there is monotony, not to mention neglect, in the appearance of state owned railways.  I am not saying there is no interest or variety, but to my mind, these later eras cannot compare with the interest and variety of those that came before.  It is a pity that the hobby in general neglects them (and people can become quite impatient if you mention that!), and I very much admire your wish to see for yourself what a slice of the Cambrian looked like at a time now beyond living memory!  

 

Keep up the good work!

[Brassey]

 

"I may have misunderstood, but are you talking about through coaches on a local or stopping service?"

 

The OP referred to the Birkenhead Joint Railway which itself was part of the Great Western and London & North Western Joint Lines.  On this line the vast majority of "through" coaches were on express trains not local or stopping services.  

 

The GW expresses would leave Birkenhead made up of coaches destined for London and the West Country and would be split at Shrewsbury.  At Shrewsbury they would have been attached to LNWR line through coaches coming from Crewe which would have originated in Manchester or Liverpool, Glasgow or Edinburgh. These through coaches would not necessarily have been LNWR coaches; some coaches from Liverpool were GWR, there was a Caledonian through coach from Glasgow to Weston-Super-Mare.  Nearer the destination, such as Kingswear, in order to reach there they might have been attached to local trains.  I have pictures of LNWR coaches in Penzance.

 

​In the opposite direction, the return workings would have been attached to trains heading for Birmingham as well as the North and split at Hereford for example.  These would have been attached to other workings going in the same direction coming off of other feeder lines.  Here is an example of a Shrewsbury to Crewe from 1911:

 

 

The first 3 LNWR coaches are Swansea to Liverpool, next 3 GWR clerestory coaches Cardiff to Liverpool, then 3 LNWR coaches including a dining saloon originating from Plymouth/Bristol, a 6 wheel van, and then 3 corridor coaches; Kingswear to Leeds, Kingswear to Manchester, Plymouth to Manchester.

 

As one can see, entire trains were made up of through coaches; in this instance the first portion being a long-distance local.

 

Few local trains had through coaches attached though an LNWR 42ft radial coach for Birmingham was attached at Wooferton to the Tenbury branch train.  I think there is a picture of this in Edwardian Enterprise.

 

Peter

[ChrisN]

All very modern, that Cambrian Tri-composite.  As you know, my setting is a decade on, but the GE had really only just started to introduce bogie stock to East Anglia (the exception hitherto being the Royal Train). 

 

I may have misunderstood, but are you talking about through coaches on a local or stopping service?  I suspect that this was a fairly frequent occurrence, though I am mostly familiar with GW workings in Devon.  Through coaches could be detached from expresses to run to local destinations on stoppers or branch trains, e.g. 70' coaches ex-Paddington detached from a Down express, run on a stopper to Brent and then added to the branch train for Kingsbridge.  Also, on that line, local stoppers could be formed using express coaches as part of a balancing working.  This is because the S Devon mainline was one where there was generally more traffic in the Down than like traffic in the Up.  I wonder if there were other routes where this was a factor?

 

I realise that I am digressing, but is not this just another example of the varied and interesting workings of the steam-age railway?  Add a mix of companies and the varied opulence of pre-Grouping liveries and it is so much more interesting than later periods.  It is an ideal combination of a variety in stock and livery and interest in workings.  Nowadays we seem to have variety in liveries, but very standardised stock and not that much interest in the daily workings.  Go back far enough in the history of Nationalised railways and more variety in stock and workings, often inter-regional, is found, but there is monotony, not to mention neglect, in the appearance of state owned railways.  I am not saying there is no interest or variety, but to my mind, these later eras cannot compare with the interest and variety of those that came before.  It is a pity that the hobby in general neglects them (and people can become quite impatient if you mention that!), and I very much admire your wish to see for yourself what a slice of the Cambrian looked like at a time now beyond living memory!  

 

Keep up the good work!

 

Hi,

I think the first bogie coaches on the Cambrian were 1894, but they were really only for use on their flagship through services.  They began to build more semi corridor coaches in 1895 but were still also building 6 wheelers.  I think the LNWR or Midland were ahead of the game with bogie coaches but you would need to ask Andy G or Penlan for confirmation.

 

Apart from the tiny branches the Cambrian had two lines, the Main Line to Aberystwyth, and the Coast Line, which was treated like an elongated branch.  In 1895 all trains stopped at all stations, so a coach which had started at Euston on a northern express would end up on an all stations stopper behind an |Albion 2-4-0.

 

I always find it interesting that there could be more traffic one way than another.  How did everyone get home, or did everyone go down at once and come back bit by bit, or go home another way?

 

I agree about the interesting workings, but also there was a pride in the Railways, and the Railways were the lifeblood of the country, so much more important than today.

[ChrisN]

"I may have misunderstood, but are you talking about through coaches on a local or stopping service?"

 

The OP referred to the Birkenhead Joint Railway which itself was part of the Great Western and London & North Western Joint Lines.  On this line the vast majority of "through" coaches were on express trains not local or stopping services.  

 

The GW expresses would leave Birkenhead made up of coaches destined for London and the West Country and would be split at Shrewsbury.  At Shrewsbury they would have been attached to LNWR line through coaches coming from Crewe which would have originated in Manchester or Liverpool, Glasgow or Edinburgh. These through coaches would not necessarily have been LNWR coaches; some coaches from Liverpool were GWR, there was a Caledonian through coach from Glasgow to Weston-Super-Mare.  Nearer the destination, such as Kingswear, in order to reach there they might have been attached to local trains.  I have pictures of LNWR coaches in Penzance.

 

​In the opposite direction, the return workings would have been attached to trains heading for Birmingham as well as the North and split at Hereford for example.  These would have been attached to other workings going in the same direction coming off of other feeder lines.  Here is an example of a Shrewsbury to Crewe from 1911:

 

a_SHREWSBURY_Image.jpg

 

The first 3 LNWR coaches are Swansea to Liverpool, next 3 GWR clerestory coaches Cardiff to Liverpool, then 3 LNWR coaches including a dining saloon originating from Plymouth/Bristol, a 6 wheel van, and then 3 corridor coaches; Kingswear to Leeds, Kingswear to Manchester, Plymouth to Manchester.

 

As one can see, entire trains were made up of through coaches; in this instance the first portion being a long-distance local.

 

Few local trains had through coaches attached though an LNWR 42ft radial coach for Birmingham was attached at Wooferton to the Tenbury branch train.  I think there is a picture of this in Edwardian Enterprise.

 

Peter

 

Peter,

That is just a fabulous picture!  It is interesting to note that there are two LNWR 6 wheel coaches in the rake, as well as the van.