For those who like old Motorcycles.

[rockershovel]

On 18/06/2022 at 02:14, MrWolf said:

An example of a motorcycle that pioneered a lot of ideas that were reinvented decades later but like a lot of advanced British machines, was too much for conservative home market buyers, most of which just needed to get to work.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascot-Pullin_500

 

 

weeeeeeellllllll....... the lay-down engine worked well for Moto Guzzi. However the enclosed shell was a thoroughly nuisance when married to an engine which needed as much msintenance as a 500cc JAP. 

 

Also, looking around the market at the time, DKW and Zundapp were having considerable success with pressed steel frames in a more conventional layout; NSU would appear in 1952 with the pressed-steel bottom-link forks which would go on to appear on millions of Hondas (and, in fact, the Ariel Arrow). Linked brakes weren't new (Rudge had experimented with a mechanical spring-loaded linkage from the rear pedal to the front brake) and Moto Guzzi had a short-lived hydraulic disc linkage at one time, but it never caught on until ABS came along. 

 

The Ascot Pullin also had a 3-speed hand change, at a time when the 4-speed positive stop gearbox was beckoning. 

 

I've always felt that the whole thing about "conservative British buyers" was a red herring. The LE Velocette sold quite well, although too expensive for what is was; but the Italian scooters of the post-WW2 era were very successful, and the wildly successful Honda Cub - with radical engineering like SOHC, semi-automatic clutch and plastic weather shields sold as fast as they could be imported. They were simply very good personal transport for people who didn't want a motorcycle at all. 

 

Sporting and enthusiast riders never liked the "tin hippo" look. It took the popularisation of aerodynamic shells in sponsors logos to do that. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by rockershovel

[New Haven Neil]

4 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Carole Nash was at one time the Insurance Officer for the Vintage Motorcycle Club and left to form a separate company which was pretty good. These days they have "gone full commercial" , grown a great deal and largely abandoned their original customer base. 

 

I used to use them but don't even bother with quotes these days. Footman James have the classic motorcycle market sewn up these days. 

 

 

Yes, I'm a VMCC member too!  As I understand it, CN Insurance sold out a while ago to US interests - explains it all really.  We used FJ when we lived in the UK, but local insurers here can't be beaten for cars or bikes, the only thing we insure elsewhere is the campervan, Adrian Flux are good for that.

[rockershovel]

Just been rummaging about for parts for the Electra Glide.

 

It has lost its pannier guard rails over the years, or possibly never had them (there are no marks on the rear crash bars and they are one of those "optional" parts that weren't always fitted from new) and after a frustrating interlude trying to work out what would, or wouldn't fit (they vary greatly in detail from year to year and there is little in the literature to actually guide what fits) I opted for a generic "football helmet" 2-bar set from Drag Specialities, a name from the past in itself!

 

Silencers, hmmmm.... I have a 33" fishtail "muffler" which has graced at least two bikes over time, although not at MoT time! I'd like to give it an outing on this one sometime, but not yet. 

 

The Vance and Hines ones fitted just before lockdown aren't stupidly noisy, the bike seems to go well on them and are in good cosmetic shape. I guess I'll leave them in place for now. 

 

Looking ahead, there are some nice-looking 60s-era replicas around at the moment although the rear mountings would need some thought. A job for the coming winter, I think. 

 

[MrWolf]

https://www.oldbikemart.co.uk/when-was-it-that-commander-2/

 

The 1952 Commander was another heroic failure and a full seven years before the Honda Cub.

 

 

[spikey]

4 hours ago, MrWolf said:

 ... The 1952 Commander was another heroic failure ...

 

Given the sort of tooling cost that must have been sunk into that abomination and the amount (cost) of all the presswork, it's very difficult to imagine how anyone could have thought it might be a money-maker.

[MrWolf]

3 hours ago, spikey said:

 

Given the sort of tooling cost that must have been sunk into that abomination and the amount (cost) of all the presswork, it's very difficult to imagine how anyone could have thought it might be a money-maker.

 

Probably not as much as was sunk into the Cub, which in many respects is a similar machine, aimed at the same market. 

The difference is that the Japanese government took a genuine interest in their nation's industry. Around the time the Cub was launched, the government realised that there was a huge global market for a machine for the masses, something that anyone could ride and not necessarily on paved  roads. So they began pumping over £30,000 per month into Honda's development programme and it clearly worked way beyond expectations.

For all of the 1960's British governments talk of "Backing Britain"they clearly weren't. All they could do was sit back while the motorcycle industry was toppled, then  nationalise what car manufacturers didn't belong to the Americans and run them into the ground. That might have worked in the USSR where the car buyer's choice was take it or leave it, but it was economic suicide in an open market.

 

As for abominations, how about the sports scooters so beloved of teenage muggers? Not only are they ugly, everything about them is cheap nasty and disposable.

[rockershovel]

Ah, but the Honda Cub was serious engineering. Its all-new SOHC engine and semi-automatic transmission were state-of-the-art and (provided the limited oil reservoir was kept full) totally reliable. Its pressed-steel and tubular spine frame  added to plastic legshields and mudguards were clean and attractive, and have proven timeless in their styling. The Step-through frame was what the market wanted.

 

The motorcycle industry wasn't "toppled", it collapsed from its own deficiencies. Photos of the AMC plant at Plumstead show working practices unchanged since Edwardian times, building motorcycles little changed since the 1930s. Edward Turners Speed Twin was quite brilliant by 1930s standards, but by the 1950s it was badly outdated.

[New Haven Neil]

Just for the record - some early Hodna step-through's were pushrod ie OHV.  Surprised me when I heard it mentioned at the dealer's Mrs NHN worked at, so the mechanic dug one out of the bits treasure trove upstairs!

[57xx]

On 20/06/2022 at 14:21, Kickstart said:

 

I agree. A lot of modern bike have (to me) a very bity design. Lots of little bits poking out.

 

And bits missing. I don't get the current trend of truncated rear ends with non existent pillion seats.

[MrWolf]

On 28/06/2022 at 12:05, rockershovel said:

Ah, but the Honda Cub was serious engineering. Its all-new SOHC engine and semi-automatic transmission were state-of-the-art and (provided the limited oil reservoir was kept full) totally reliable. Its pressed-steel and tubular spine frame  added to plastic legshields and mudguards were clean and attractive, and have proven timeless in their styling. The Step-through frame was what the market wanted.

 

The motorcycle industry wasn't "toppled", it collapsed from its own deficiencies. Photos of the AMC plant at Plumstead show working practices unchanged since Edwardian times, building motorcycles little changed since the 1930s. Edward Turners Speed Twin was quite brilliant by 1930s standards, but by the 1950s it was badly outdated.

 

Perhaps my phrase wasn't specific enough. It was toppled from the inside, particularly the big companies. When you had directors and shareholders completely detached from what was going on and senior management who refused to take anything new seriously. Take Norton's racing and development shops, you had the likes of Joe Craig grudgingly accepting the McCandless frame after it was race proved, but remaining stubbornly obsessed by the Cammy single, which had it's origins in 1927, rather than creating an OHC twin or racing four, customers got the rather agricultural chain drive ohv twin. 

Big manufacturers ignored what the public wanted and the small ones lacked the necessary funding to counter superior machines from Europe and Japan.

[rockershovel]

On 28/06/2022 at 12:21, New Haven Neil said:

Just for the record - some early Hodna step-through's were pushrod ie OHV.  Surprised me when I heard it mentioned at the dealer's Mrs NHN worked at, so the mechanic dug one out of the bits treasure trove upstairs!

One version of the 100cc and 125cc singles was a pushrod engine, too. We had one as a junior grasstrack bike 

[rockershovel]

6 hours ago, MrWolf said:

 

Perhaps my phrase wasn't specific enough. It was toppled from the inside, particularly the big companies. When you had directors and shareholders completely detached from what was going on and senior management who refused to take anything new seriously. Take Norton's racing and development shops, you had the likes of Joe Craig grudgingly accepting the McCandless frame after it was race proved, but remaining stubbornly obsessed by the Cammy single, which had it's origins in 1927, rather than creating an OHC twin or racing four, customers got the rather agricultural chain drive ohv twin. 

Big manufacturers ignored what the public wanted and the small ones lacked the necessary funding to counter superior machines from Europe and Japan.

I wouldn't say big manufacturers ignored what the public wanted. BSA produced the A7 and A10 Gold Flash models very quickly, because they thought they would sell, and they did. By 1940s standards, they were state-of-the-art, as was the Norton Dominator.

 

The real problem was that the Japanese moved the goalposts in the 1950s, introducing radical new concepts in quality control and production engineering. The Japanese set out to improve production and design simultaneously, with designs based upon superior metallurgy and simplified assembly. They bought in German design concepts and turned them into motorcycles which could be produced very efficiently  and show high degree of reliability in use. 

 

Honda beat BSA-Triumph to the punch with a completely new series of 250cc to 450cc ohc twins with 12v electrics, easy starting, good performance and total reliability. The 350cc version in particular was hugely successful; then they built a 4-cylinder SOHC with 5 speeds  electric start and the rest while BSA were struggling with, basically the ultimate development of the 1930s Speed Twin. 

 

The British industry, by the 1960s didn't even understand the game they were involved in. 

[spikey]

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

... The real problem was that the Japanese moved the goalposts in the 1950s, introducing radical new concepts in quality control and production engineering ...

 

... which were concepts that the British motorcycle industry didn't grasp until it was too late.  I do wish I still had the list of defects that had to be sorted with the brand new Bonneville I made the mistake of buying in 1968/9 whichever it was.

 

Incidentally, ref Mr Wolf's earlier mention of Nortons, I bought that Bonneville from Freddie Frith's in Grimsby.  Fred had won a couple of TTs pre-war on Nortons, and in due course I got to know him quite well.  Certainly well enough to know that by the time Norton introduced the Commando with The Green Blob on the tank, Fred had given up hope of them ever getting their act together ,,,

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by spikey
misplaced comma

[Kickstart]

14 hours ago, 57xx said:

 

And bits missing. I don't get the current trend of truncated rear ends with non existent pillion seats.

 

Something I think of as looking awful! But maybe I am showing my age.

 

The "sports tourer" seems to have been abandoned, with the market going for distance optmised bikes or more extreme race replicas (no objection to either for their purposes) or naked bikes. The sports bike to be ridden daily seems to have been abandoned - FZ750, GPX750, VFR750, even the ZX12R

 

All the best

 

Katy

[Northmoor]

22 minutes ago, Kickstart said:

The "sports tourer" seems to have been abandoned, with the market going for distance optmised bikes or more extreme race replicas (no objection to either for their purposes) or naked bikes. The sports bike to be ridden daily seems to have been abandoned - FZ750, GPX750, VFR750, even the ZX12R

Even Mark Forsyth wrote in one of the last editions of PB (incorporated into Practical Sportsbikes) that sports bike power levels were now at such ridiculous levels, that they serve no purpose beyond bar-room bragging, for most owners,

Ewan and Charlie are largely responsible for the massive market swing towards Adventure-style bikes.  The sports bike market is now very small; the days when the CBR600 was the UK's best seller, are long gone.

[Kickstart]

17 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Even Mark Forsyth wrote in one of the last editions of PB (incorporated into Practical Sportsbikes) that sports bike power levels were now at such ridiculous levels, that they serve no purpose beyond bar-room bragging, for most owners,

Ewan and Charlie are largely responsible for the massive market swing towards Adventure-style bikes.  The sports bike market is now very small; the days when the CBR600 was the UK's best seller, are long gone.

 

I would agree on power levels, but smaller engined sports bikes with more sensible power have disappeared. 600cc sports bikes are pretty much unavailable now, and partly that is the kind of thing I am talking about. Original CBR600 was the kind of sports all rounder I mean. It evolved into the CBR600RR which was great for those who wanted and out and out sports bike while the more sensible F version was allowed to whither, moving back into being a faired version of a cheap naked bike (OK, being a bit damning there!). Suzuki did the same with the GSX600, giving us the GSXR600 while allowing the GSX600F with be replaced with a cheaper cruder version which was allowed to whither. Kawasaki did the same with the ZZR600 and Yamaha with the Thundercat. All sports bikes replaced with race replicas, with the sports version just being left pretty much unupdated.

 

If I wanted a faired sports bike now there is very little choice without buying something with close to 200hp in race replica bodywork, except some low powered A2 market bikes, or some even lower powered learner bikes.

 

My current regular bike is a 675 Street Triple. A bit over 100hp which is fine by me (although honestly I would prefer the power delivery to be a bit peakier). The sports bike version of this is now dead, but the middle ground bike between the naked Striple and the race rep Daytona never even existed. Striple with a better pillion seat, sightly lower bars and a useful but sporting fairing, etc. Could even put the mirrors on the fairing so that they are useful (unlike the Striple ones which seem to be an afterthought assuming that people will pay for tiny little bar end mirrors!)

 

Afraid the adventure style bikes just don't appeal.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[2mmMark]

If anyone is at loose end on Sunday 3rd July, may I recommend The Brooklands Motorcycle Show?

https://www.brooklandsmuseum.com/whats-on/motorcycle-day

There's a lot of interesting stuff lined up, we have some rare TT, race & record breaking bikes from the 1920s/30s/40s/50s on show, some rarely seen in public.  BSA, Francis Barnett, Harley, Hollis Motorcycles, Indian, Royal Enfield, Triumph and Wardill will be on show - BSA with their new Gold Star, Royal Enfield with the recreation of the first motorcycle built by the company in 1901.  The ABC/Bradshaw story will feature in a display, a marque not often featured.

 

Allen Millyard is riding his Kawasaki Super Six to the event and alongside Allen will be Henry Cole & Guy Willison with their "Junk & Disorderly" autojumble.  Silverstone Auctions & Bonhams are going to be there, also bringing some rare & unusual machines.

 

For the first time Project Pit Stop, a new men’s health initiative supported by The Distinguished Gentleman's Ride (DGR) and Movember UK, will be with us.
Weather permitting, there'll be the opportunity to ride up Test Hill on your own machine and there will be demonstation runs of various bikes in the morning and afternoon.

And of course, a huge part of the event is the bikes people ride in on,  ancient & modern, large & small.

Pre-booking is strongly recommended to make entry smoother on the day.

[rockershovel]

IMHO the old division of 500cc tourer, 650cc sports bike and 900cc Heavyweight are still valid. Certainly any modern 650-900cc bike can hold its own in any traffic conditions likely to be met and go faster than most riders are competent to handle. 

[alastairq]

For a whilse now, I have 'followed'' a Youtube channel by a Canadian biker.

 

https://www.youtube.com/c/FortNine

 

I find his presentation to be quite marvellous [as an old age pensioner-rider-wannabe]..

 

More to the point, I find his topics to be interesting, even if irrelevant to me personally.

[For perceived physical reasons, my motorcycling is confined to driving around in my Dellow.....4 wheels, so less likely to 'damage' a rather delicately-skinned damaged leg.]

 

However, I recently watched one of his videos about engine oil.....and was intrigued......and surprised by the results.  

Certainly worth a watch....even if it does upset Katy?  :)  :)  :)

 

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by alastairq

[alastairq]

Incidentally....whilst, when I sell the Mustang, I am tempted to consider purchasing a Royal enfield 350 [whether 'classic' or 'Meteor,  I have yet to determine conclusively] , purely as a 'hobby' bike [since, most of my motoring is currently centred around running my son around here & there...and he won't like pillion riding at al at all at all!]!

 

But, when considering going back to motorcycling, I have one or two physical issues to contend with.

Firstly, being now over 70 years of age, I find I have lost a lot of the articulation and flexibility in my legs.

In other words, I would struggle to get my right leg up & over the saddle of a motorcycle. especially if it has lumps at the rear of the seat area.

Secondly, I am over 6 foot 2 inches tall, so a low saddle height might prove to be an uncomfortable, squatting , riding position?

Thirdly, my right leg!

It is the 'strongest' of the two legs I am equipped with, but 40-odd years ago, it was badly smashed in a motorcycle incident, [compound tib & fib]...

 

 

Ever since [and I was warned it would get 'worse' as I got older] it has persistently swelled up [lower leg] to serval times it's early morning size, by breakfast time. This is pretty much all 'water'....I realise...but makes the wearing of jeans difficult..I can get them on easily fist thing in the morning...getting them off again at night is a real task!  Just setting the scene, really, by way of explanation, but......

 

The lower leg can be, and is, easily 'damaged', skin & flesh-wise, by the slightest of normal , easy for me to shake off, knocks....

 

No real 'pain' as such [my left leg more than ,makes up for the lack of pain].....but 'awkward'....

 

Now, with regards to motorcycle gear, the preferential footwear, especially for a born-again beginner like me, is for something like an armoured boot....motocross-style, perhaps? Since a huge percentage of motorcycle injuries actually occur to the lower legs [and hands], rather than the torso itself.

I do intend to fall off with monotonous regularity, so intend to plan for such frequent events...

 

But, I can't see me being able to get into, or out of, a properly supportive [protective?] boot, as such, due to the above aftermath of injuries received.

The alternative is an expensive, more 'ankle' boot type.   Something along the lines of these?  Falco Aviator Motorcycle Boots?

https://www.fc-moto.de/epages/fcm.sf/?ObjectPath=%2FShops%2F10207048%2FProducts%2FFalco-Aviator-Motorcycle-Boots%2FSubProducts%2FFalco-Aviator-Motorcycle-Boots-0011&Currency=GBP&Locale=en_GB&utm_source=connexity&utm_medium=productlisting&utm_campaign=CON_GB&iccm=CON_GB

 

Easy to get on & off for me... but bloody expensive for a pensioner.

 

Now the crux of the matter. How do I 'protect' my lower leg?

 

Bearing in mind, a commonplace tumble can inflict considerable flesh-wound damage to an older person....especially one with a huge leg-swelling issue to contend with?  [Skin stretched more taught  in practice]

Back when my leg was being treated [and even after the ketal work was removed] I had use of a swiss fracture device,  a 'brace' of plastic & steel, in several parts, which encased my calf, and had an armoured cover up the front, all held together by Velcro straps. This meant my compound tib & fib, once all had been pushed back into place, sort of, could be freed when I the bath [lower half of lower leg would wobble about unnaturally, of course]...

I cold also apply gentle pressure on the breaks when on crutches.

This didn't 'work' in my case ,resulting in a steel bar being inserted instead.

However, it gave me  the idea of being able to 'wear' some sort of lower leg protection[under or over trousers]...

 

But I have never come across anything suitable from the motorcycling world....

 

Does anyone have any suggestions.....that don't involve full length boots, high heels, or open toed sandals?

 

Or, for the safety of the rest of the travelling public, should I stick to the Dellow? Despite its low -twenties fuel consumption?

 

 

 

Or, for the safety of the rest of the travelling public, should I stick to the Dellow? Despite its low -twenties fuel consumption?

Edited July 3, 2022 by alastairq

[spikey]

4 hours ago, alastairq said:

... should I stick to the Dellow? Despite its low -twenties fuel consumption?

 

Alas I have no sensible suggestions to make regarding apparel, as all I ever wore was Barbour jackets, jeans and your typical 1960s zip-back boots (with, of course, seaboot socks turned over the tops thereof as was the mode du jour) - apart from one pair of ex-Army dispatch rider boots and the 1966-pattern flying boots I managed to hang on to when the RAF and I parted company.

 

I am though indebted to you for mentioning the Dellow, about which I was completely unaware.  I could quite fancy one of those :)

[Rugd1022]

 

[Rugd1022]

[MrWolf]

Ah, the old fizzy, a bike I remember from my school days. It's amazing how much people will pay for a restored one "Just like they had when they were sixteen".  But they were rusty, dented, leaking, with snapped off indicators, a split seat that meant a wet a***, the rear number plate bent double and a tail light lens held together by Airfix glue and sellotape.

 

Much more authentic!😜

[57xx]

3 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

 

Not sure if that's the H1 500 or H2 750 motor, but either way, it looks like a death trap!