Clerestory coach roof boards

[checkrail]

I've found a few pictures in my GW 1930s albums of gangwayed clerestory coaches with roof boards, and would like to copy this.  Unfortunately none of the photos is clear enough to give detail as to how they were secured.  They seem to be mounted vertically (which makes sense - they'd be unreadable if in line with the shallow roof profile) and are perhaps a bit higher than on later elliptical roofed stock - maybe in line with the top of the rain strip?  Or were they up against the clerestory itself?  How were they fixed?

 

Any info gratefully received!

 

Thanks,

John C.

 

​My layout: STOKE COURTENAY, 4mm scale 1930s GWR junction station.  See layout topic.

[phil_sutters]

I've found a few pictures in my GW 1930s albums of gangwayed clerestory coaches with roof boards, and would like to copy this.  Unfortunately none of the photos is clear enough to give detail as to how they were secured.  They seem to be mounted vertically (which makes sense - they'd be unreadable if in line with the shallow roof profile) and are perhaps a bit higher than on later elliptical roofed stock - maybe in line with the top of the rain strip?  Or were they up against the clerestory itself?  How were they fixed?

 

Any info gratefully received!

 

Thanks,

John C.

 

​My layout: STOKE COURTENAY, 4mm scale 1930s GWR junction station.  See layout topic.

Michael Harris' Great Western Coaches 1890 - 1954 has some useful photos.On page 19 it shows what it describes as 'A typical Western Region express of the 1950 period' which shows a train with boards on elliptical stock. These seem to be mounted below the rainstrip but lying back against the roof, not vertical. On page 12 it has an overhead view of a fairly recently painted clerestory roof. The brackets for the board do lie just above the very shallow curve of the lower rainstrip. They are wedged shaped with the two outer ones having corner framing to hold the ends of the board and a central one that just has a lower projection. The angle of the front faces seems to be similar to the angle that the board would be on an elliptical roof - i.e. not vertical. There is a drawing on page 33, of an elliptical coach's design which shows the dimension between the end brackets as '18'0" clear. I imagine that that would have to be standard for all coaches.

In Kichenside's Railway Carriage Album, the official 'works' photos don't show any brackets on new clerestory coaches, but do on some elliptical ones. I wonder when roof boards were introduced. It does illustrate some longer, presumably permanent, boards for a clerestory LONDON, NEWPORT, CARDIFF, DINING - CAR

Fraser, Geen & Scott's The Great Western Railway in the 1930s - Volume one  has a nice overhead view of a local Avonmouth train in the Avon Gorge, comprised of mostly clerestory coaches, in which the brackets can clearly be seen to be set back more than on the one elliptical coach, whose brackets are very close to the edge of the roof.(photo 103). Both types of coaches' board brackets have the much same rake back - probably about 15 - 20 degrees. Without wanting to put a dampener on your wish to fit roof boards to your clerestory stock, it does appear from this book, that any 1930s train, prestigious enough to have roof boards, didn't include clerestory coaches.

[checkrail]

Thanks Phil for useful info, pointing me in the right direction (and opening my eyes!).  Haven't seen a copy of Harris for years, but have just looked up the photo you mention (no. 103) in Geen et al 'GWR 1930s Vol 1'.  Leafing through I noticed another pic (no.90), also with clear details of roof board brackets on a clerestory coach (behind 'Tintagel Castle'), plus pic. 207 in Vol 2.  So it's clear that the boards were mounted just at the top of the rain strip, which answers my question.  I've since dug out 'Great Western pictorial No. 2: the Hubback collection, which has quite a few clear pics showing the brackets on clerestory roofs.

 

I'd agree that the actual fitting of roof boards on these coaches was rare by the 1930s, largely because they'd been cascaded to less prestigious duties as you suggest, but I found a couple in Earley's books 'GW scene' & 'Truly the GW'.  Semmens' 'GW passenger train services' also has 2 pics of the Cardiff- Portsmouth service in 1936 (pp.47, 94) with a clerestory van 3rd with roofboards behind the locos.  These help to establish the angle - as you say, similar to the boards on later coaches. 

 

I've also found quite a few pictures of clerestory coaches without headboards on express trains, e.g. for Torbay, within rakes of elliptical roof stock which do carry them.  I suppose in many cases these were relief trains, or the clerestories were strengtheners.

 

Thanks again,

John C.

 

​My layout: STOKE COURTENAY, 4mm scale 1930s GWR junction station.  See layout topic.

[Coach bogie]

For comparison of mounting angles of clerestory compared to 1925 stock.

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Edwardian]

For comparison of mounting angles of clerestory compared to 1925 stock.

 

GC001boARDS.jpg

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

That is a great photograph, Mike.  When, where and what service, may I ask?

 

It is good to see a clear view of a mid-'20s Collett in original panelled livery.  I would assume E128 Brake Composite (1926), but, if so, I confess I had not realised that these were built 'handed'?

 

I wonder if the noticeably darker pair of clerestories are simply far dirtier than the others, or whether they are still in wartime brown?

 

Interesting to see the mix of footboards and no foot boards on the clerestory bogies.

 

From front to rear, I will hazard a guess that the clerestories are D31 Van Third, a pair of C17 Thirds, next it's tempting to assume another Van Third, but could be something more exotic; an H2 with the kitchen at the further end? 

[chrisf]

 

It is good to see a clear view of a mid-'20s Collett in original panelled livery.  I would assume E128 Brake Composite (1926), but, if so, I confess I had not realised that these were built 'handed'?

 

 

It's older than an E128 and the first class appears to be at the end remote from the guard.  I suggest that it is an E113.

 

Chris

[Edwardian]

the first class appears to be at the end remote from the guard.

 

Chris

 

That is, indeed, what confused me! 

 

So, flat-ended from 1923.

 

Looking at the 'as-built' picture in Russell's Appendix Vol. 1, it appears to match the coach in Mike's photograph perfectly.  Thanks.

[Coach bogie]

That is a great photograph, Mike.  When, where and what service, may I ask?

 

 

It is approx 1923 (as the train engine is still in GC livery) of a Sheffield - Swindon, location unknown but opinion is to be near Oxford.

 

Mike

[Edwardian]

It is approx 1923 (as the train engine is still in GC livery) of a Sheffield - Swindon, location unknown but opinion is to be near Oxford.

 

Mike

 

Many thanks, Mike.  What a great service to reproduce.  A string of fully lined GW coaches hauled by Bachmann/NRM's Butler Henderson is an idea!  Also in period, I presume, would be Bachmann's latest City release.  

[Il Grifone]

I would think the coaches in a single colour are in crimson livery rather than brown (though wartime brown or even 1908-12 brown is a possibility). If the photo is dated just after grouping, this livery would have been current up to a year or two before and still a common sight.

[Guardian]

That sounds reasonable as from the picture as above, only coaches no. 1, 2 and 5 seem to be in chocolate/cream. The rest - the majority - is in a monochrome livery, be it crimson lake or brown.

 

Cheers

Mark

[Edwardian]

I would think the coaches in a single colour are in crimson livery rather than brown (though wartime brown or even 1908-12 brown is a possibility). If the photo is dated just after grouping, this livery would have been current up to a year or two before and still a common sight.

 

Good point.  Fully lined Chocolate & Cream was re-instated, when?  1921? 

 

It is impressive, then, to see so many clerestories repainted by 1923 (The E113 means the picture can be no earlier than July 1923). 

 

At least, I assume repaints.  These clerestories were probably built c.1900-1902.  This suggests that a first repaint would be brown or crimson lake, which, indeed, is presumably what happened to the darker pair of coaches. Could the chocolate and cream coaches still be wearing the livery applied when built? If not, the chocolate and cream must have been recently re-applied.    

 

Only the nearest clerestory is clear, but it is very clean and the lining quite visible.  What you see on the upper surface of the chocolate waist-band beading seems, to me, to be reflected light, but could be lining.  On the Collett it must be lining, as there is no moulding.  Either way, the impression is that the clerestory's finish is as fresh and polished as the Collett's.

[Nick Holliday]

Just noticed, whilst thumbing through "Great Western Infrastructure" from Noodle Books, that there are a couple of close-ups of clerestory coach roof board brackets which might be of interest.  Thanks to the penchant of the photographer, E Wallis, for taking his bulky camera up signals and bridges, his shots occasionally and accidently capture unexpected detail of roofs on buildings and rolling stock, in addition to his beloved signals and boxes.

[57xx]

That sounds reasonable as from the picture as above, only coaches no. 1, 2 and 5 seem to be in chocolate/cream. The rest - the majority - is in a monochrome livery, be it crimson lake or brown.

 

I'd have said only coach 3 & 4 are the single colour livery, you can see the lighter panels on the coaches from 5 backwards.

[Edwardian]

I'd have said only coach 3 & 4 are the single colour livery, you can see the lighter panels on the coaches from 5 backwards.

 

I agree, hence my comment "It is impressive, then, to see so many clerestories repainted by 1923".  At least I assume repaints, as I find it hard to imagine the chocolate and cream coaches further down the rake had not been repainted in over 20 years!