Just starting in 00 gauge and have some basic DCC questions on some new stock I have on order

[Spikeyorks]

Hi There

 

As the title says I am just about to start modelling in OO gauge and would like some initial suggestions to help me on my way. I am planning to model an imaginary branch line off the Great Eastern main line and, to this end, have ordered some GE EMUs from Britannia Pacific to get me on my way. As I would like to go DCC with this project, yet know very little about it, I thought I would see if I could get some quick answers that could be incorporated in to the build of my models (or not).

 

I am buying ready to run models and they can have DCC chips fitted to them as part of the build. When I asked what type was recommended I received the reply "most of our customers use Hornby or Hattons or we can fit your own". As a complete novice this didn't really give me a clear path ahead so I thought I would ask here. Any help, suggestions would be greatly appreciated. (Note that I don't have a DCC system at all at the moment). My questions are simply;

 

1) Do you think it is worth getting the chips fitted at the "build stage"? As I am a complete novice this appeals to me in the sense that I get correctly fitted chips right from the start and don't have to worry about retro fitting. The downside, of course, being that I have to make that decision now. 

 

2) Are all chips the same? I believe that I have read that they are but just wanted to make sure. Is it the case that I can get any chip fitted and then pick my control system later? (I didn't really understand the Hattons comment as they seem to have to have lots of different chips on their site?).

 

3) Any thoughts on the best system for a novice to buy? I am planning for my layout to be an end to end (fiddle yard to small suburban terminus) with EMUs shuttling in and out and some parcels / van traffic. Think 1970's GE. Half a dozen EMUs and the same number of locos perhaps. Would this system choice affect the type of chips I should buy?

 

4) I haven't even thought about sound or point control yet. Should I be and does that affect system choice?

 

Hopefully all of the above makes sense. I have a reasonable size budget for the DCC so I am assuming that a mid-priced system suitable for a novice will be preferable to a beginners basic system.

 

I look forward to hearing from the experts in due course. Thanks.

 

David

[johnb]

You will get many diffreing answers as there are many chips and control systems, just have a look at the threads on here. This is not a new question and there are plenty of threads that discuss this. Chips are certainly not all the same in quality of operation, also the cheaper ones do not have the all the facilities of the more expensive ones.

 

However I have a similiar layout as to the one you are planning, end to end with EMUs and some loco hauled, it is an exhibition layout. Powered stock is from most of the usual manufacturers, as for chips I have a selection in use, including Hornby and Hattons, but rather prefer the lower end NCE and TCS chips which do all that I require, I stress the 'all-that-I-require' bit. Others are have stricter requirements and that usually means the more expensive chips.

 

However almost all chips are to the NMRA standards and are interchangeable and if NMRA compatible will work with almost all control system.

 

Mostly I fit the chips myself as I then get the one that I want without the bother of paying to get them fitted.

 

As for the main control system I have used an NCE Powercab for some years and again it suits my needs. I tried several before I took the plunge and decided on NCE, I like the handling and facilities the Powercab gives at a reasonable price.

 

I generally do not have sound locos, but can and have run them. Points I do not use DCC, I prefer to keep it simple, using manually switched Tortoise motors or even push rod operation in association with microswitches

 

In short you must try out several control systems and see what YOU like. It is very much a personal choice.

 

regards

 

John

[Nigelcliffe]

If you're spending hundreds on bespoke, or semi-bespoke models, why would you choose to fit the cheapest most basic chip without any maker's upgrades to those expensive models ?   Why not spend a little more and get the best there is ?

 

At OO sizes, non-sound, a Zimo MX600 costs about £17-£18 per decoder.   Zimo offer probably the best motor control around for OO and above.

 

 

Another factor in any model is how many lights there are to control.  Most multiple units have a lot of lights if they are to be worked prototypically.  That needs a lot of lighting outputs on the decoder, something which cheap decoder's don't have. 

 

 

- Nigel

[BR60103]

As a non-DCC user, who has operated the system, I'll offer the following.

Try an assortment of controllers before deciding. You may be able to try them at a local club or a show, if you ask nicely. The throttles can be as frustrating to use as TV remotes.

You may want to choose a system that most nearby modellers use so that there is support.

 

On decoders, check price. If separate decoder means lower overall price, go for it. The most difficult part of installing it yourself may be getting the body off or finding space inside. Sound is a level up.

[rockershovel]

I had a confusing introduction to DCC a while ago and still haven't mastered it by a long way, but here are a few pointers which don't tend to be evident to novices from the literature or advice offered;

 

1) the various proprietary systems have sockets which are NOT interchangeable, and adapter cables don't appear to be available, presumably for technical reasons.

 

2) a loco may be "DCC ready" meaning you can plug in a chip and go, but this may not mean a sound chip - just a speed-and-direction control

 

3) some locos will run on DC and DCC, some won't. This will be a function of the installation.

[Junctionmad]

In my opinion , DCC is considerably easier to install than many DC systems , especially where complex movements arise. You still have all the same issues with switching frogs etc. But you do not have to section up the layout.

 

As for systems , my preference would be NCE , you can start quite small and cheap , but the system(s) exist to build it up into quite complex systems , including mimic panel support , dcc control of turnouts etc.

 

Note that will dcc at the loco and track level is compatible , controllers , throttles etc are not. So X manufacturers dcc cab cannot be used with "y" control unit. Stick with one manufacturer of dcc controller

 

for locos, I agree with others , fit good quality brand leaders like Zimo or Lenz, especially at the start. Once you get comfortable you can try other cheaper chips.

 

At this point in its evolution. I actually can't understand anyone considering a new layout not using dcc. It's a 25 year old technology at this stage

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Lots of slow speed movement is what I assume from the OP's layout and operation description. I'd want those EMU's to glide about at low speed, with smooth creeping in and out of motion. What I don't know is what the drive capability of the proposed models is like, and if no-one can offer experience then I would suggest  buying one and trial fitting with a couple of decoders. Most 4mm RTR mechanisms perform very well with the Lenz Standard, which can be got very economically. If the drive is rough and beyond the Lenz to tame it acceptably, then next step is a Zimo for the greater range of motor drive adjustment. (Purely economic for what is a utility, using the cheapest decoder that delivers an acceptable job.)

 

RTR locos - presumably diesel or electric -  if of the centre motor flywheel drive type now standard in good models, will all perform immaculately with the Lenz Standard.

 

I have had the chance to try various other low cost decoders including the EMU manufacturer's recommendations, and they typically have what I think of as 'granularity' at the lowest speeds, just not quite smooth motion; and frequently a pronounced 'bump' or discontinuity in the speed curve. With a fundamentally good smooth running mechanism, they may even degrade the intrinsic performance of the drive from what may be obtained from well regulated DC!

[Spikeyorks]

Thanks very much for your replies chaps. It would seem that there is quite a bit for me to consider and already I can see that I have been a little bit ambitious in my initial thoughts. I think that I should start by concentrating on simply getting my EMUs moving and come back to sounds or lights at a later date when (a) I actually have the models and (b) I know a little bit more about what I am doing.

 

I think I do know a few things now though and these are as follows;

 

a) I will probably not need to control any more than two trains simultaneously. It is, after all, an end-to-end layout and I only have two hands.

b) Slow running of EMUs will be essential so I can fully understand both avoiding the cheaper chips and also maybe trying out one or two types in my actual models first to see how they perform.

c) The EMUs are provided r-t-r with the following "All of our EMU & DMU models (unless stated otherwise) come complete with a brand new Hornby motor with pick-ups from all eight wheels on that carriage and all are DCC ready or can have a DCC chip fitted if you wish."

d) I do like the sound of the NCE system, perhaps with the extra cab controller. How have people found this to be "straight out of the box"?

 

In the meantime I will keep researching and go and see if I can have a "play" somewhere.

 

Kind Regards

 

David

[cravensdmufan]

Thanks very much for your replies chaps. It would seem that there is quite a bit for me to consider and already I can see that I have been a little bit ambitious in my initial thoughts. I think that I should start by concentrating on simply getting my EMUs moving and come back to sounds or lights at a later date when (a) I actually have the models and (b) I know a little bit more about what I am doing.

 

I think I do know a few things now though and these are as follows;

 

a) I will probably not need to control any more than two trains simultaneously. It is, after all, an end-to-end layout and I only have two hands.

b) Slow running of EMUs will be essential so I can fully understand both avoiding the cheaper chips and also maybe trying out one or two types in my actual models first to see how they perform.

c) The EMUs are provided r-t-r with the following "All of our EMU & DMU models (unless stated otherwise) come complete with a brand new Hornby motor with pick-ups from all eight wheels on that carriage and all are DCC ready or can have a DCC chip fitted if you wish."

d) I do like the sound of the NCE system, perhaps with the extra cab controller. How have people found this to be "straight out of the box"?

 

In the meantime I will keep researching and go and see if I can have a "play" somewhere.

 

Kind Regards

 

David

I have an NCE Powercab purchased 5 years ago which I found to be great.  I went to a specialist DCC trader (Digitrains) at an exhibition and was able to try out different ones before I decided on the NCE.

 

I found the system excellent - I fitted a good few of my locos with bog standard Bachmann and Hornby decoders and have never had problems.  Slow speed control is fantastic if you select 128 speed step setting.  I have since fitted half a dozen with sound using all Loksound v4 decoders from Legoman and Coastal DCC.  Running wise, I found these decoders no better than the Bachmann and Hornby ones - in fact one has a bit of a mind of it's own!  Not very good for a £100 price tag. But I have to say the sounds are good!

 

So my advice is to try a couple of basic decoders first.

[BR60103]

As far as I can tell, everything between the wall plug and the track or bus has to be the same manufacturer (some manufacturers sell under different names) to be compatible.  All the chips and things are supposed to be compatible with everything else. (well, there are power limitations)  Things like reverse loop modules may or may not be compatible.

[Pete the Elaner]

d) I do like the sound of the NCE system, perhaps with the extra cab controller. How have people found this to be "straight out of the box"?

 

I found it easy to use. The more advanced features are there like consisting (double-heading), programming CVs. The manual is quite big & detailed but usual operations like driving, loco selection & turning on/off lights & sound are easy to use with a decent display to read.

There are bound to be better systems but most of them require to buy the 'Full-fat' version for about £400+ in the first place.

 

If you want to upgrade it later because you want more current available, more than 4 throttles, a separate programming track or a computer interface, then you can buy the add-on modules.

If you find that you want all the features of the PowerPro (It's full-fat brother), then you can turn your PowerCab into one by buying the extra modules without paying any more than if you had bought this in the first place.

 

I can't remember anyone on here selling their PowerCab because they didn't like it. Used ones are uncommon on ebay too.

[Pete the Elaner]

As far as I can tell, everything between the wall plug and the track or bus has to be the same manufacturer (some manufacturers sell under different names) to be compatible.  All the chips and things are supposed to be compatible with everything else. (well, there are power limitations)  Things like reverse loop modules may or may not be compatible.

I think there are some overlaps like a Roco Multimaus can be used as an extra throttle for a Lenz or something like that, but these are uncommon.

 

What we now know as 'DCC' follows the NMRA standards which is why you can run locos fitted with Lenz, NCE, Zimo, Loksound, digitrax, TCS & more chips all on the same layout.

Zero 1 was mentioned earlier & this is technically DCC but not NMRA compliant so you can't run a Zero1 chipped loco with your Lenz 100.

[Pete the Elaner]

I'd like to point out that NCE and Gaugemaster are NOT the main DCC brands, that goes to Lenz and Digitrax.

How do you define that?

From what I have seen at shows, NCE is at least as popular as either Lenz or Digtrax. It may be enlightening to run a poll to find out what people are using, but those voting would only be a small percentage of DCC users.

[rockershovel]

How do you define that?

From what I have seen at shows, NCE is at least as popular as either Lenz or Digtrax. It may be enlightening to run a poll to find out what people are using, but those voting would only be a small percentage of DCC users.

I bought my Gaugemaster from Digitrains, who told me that NCE and Gaugemaster were the main sellers. They also advised that NCE were probably the preferred choice of clubs and exhibitors, but they recommended Gaugemaster to new buyers because of the simpler control structure.

 

Builders specifically interested in the subject of DCC might well have different views.

 

FWIW, my club have a fixed OO layout which has a mixture of DC and DCC control, using a system built in situ using MERG controllers to accommodate various members' stock, various exhibition layouts either functioning or under construction, which use various forms of DC control, and a test track which has the option of a single NEC DCC controller on the 16.5mm circuit, but not on the EM, 9mm or 32mm circuits.

[Phil S]

Looking at the 'Command Station Poll Results' on the Rocrail site, gives 'Expressnet' and 'Loconet' as the 2 'leaders' at around 10-11%, with Z21 (which offers both) now at 5% ..... NCE show as 0%  ....  however, this is a long list, and there is a lot of flexibility in whether respondants chose their specific manufacturer, or the more-common control bus (ie Expressnet is from Lenz, and used by Roco, Hornby,ZTC and others, whilst Loconet was also used by Fleischmann ... and the Z21 (from Roco/FLeischmann) is amongst many offering a choice of European-based controllers offering a choice of protocols.  Even the Marklin Central Controller offers the user both Mfx AND DCC.

Of course, this distribution is probably biased toward those running VDU-screen track diagrams with  Rocrail.8-)

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 

d) I do like the sound of the NCE system, perhaps with the extra cab controller. How have people found this to be "straight out of the box"?

 

 

 Try every control interface you can lay your hands on, preferably actually operating. (Coastal DCC have a good set up that enables this and attend shows, as presumably do other DCC specialist retailers.) Some like consoles with things to waggle or screens to press, others like  handsets, tentered or free range; these can be big with endless buttons, knobs and levers, or small and operable in one hand.

 

Once you have found the one you are most comfortable with, then you can do exactly as with a car: practice everything you are going to use until you are unconciously competent. Declared bias: in my opinion this hobby should be about watching the model trains running, rather than looking at the control interface.