SNCF unveils first TGV Océane

[DavidB-AU]

THE first Alstom TGV 2N2 Euroduplex Atlantique train for the 302km Sud Europ Atlantique high-speed line was revealed to the press at Paris Montparnasse station on September 14 by SNCF president Mr Guillaume Pepy and Mrs Rachel Picard, CEO of Voyages SNCF.

 

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/sncf-unveils-first-tgv-oceane-train.html

[hellotojasonisaacs]

What does this mean for the TGV Atlantique fleet?

[olivegreen]

What does this mean for the TGV Atlantique fleet?

 

Good question.  It seems that the French press is not saying much on the issue - probably because SNCF has not yet released any details (note that investigative journalism is almost unknown here!) and wants the blaze of publicity for the new sets to stick in people's minds: rightly so given the massive public investment in the LGV extension and the trains.

 

As far as the branch of the LGV from just east of Le Mans to Rennes is concerned, we to the west of Rennes (in railway terms) are receiving lots of publicity on the reduced journey times to Rennes (edited to add 'from the east'), of course, and as a consequence to St Malo (of interest to me), Brest and Quimper and major points in between - and also (off topic!) on the likely increase in property values that they will generate. Ditto for the bit to Angers and Nantes. Hmmm...

 

Given the heavy loadings from Paris, in particular, to Rennes and Nantes - less so beyond - even on the duplex TGVs, and from what I have seen projected in the local press (but only there) as the likely timetabling once the new LGV is in operation which is not a lot better than now, not many TGV-Atlantiques displaced from the Bordeaux route are likely to be needed for any of those services.

 

Is anyone here better in the know able to shed more light on the issue?

 

Mike

[Fat Controller]

Because of ever-increasing charges for train paths, SNCF seems to be standardising on double deck TGVs. Perhaps the Atlantique power-cars might be given new trailers, or perhaps the ensemble will be heading for Culoz for scrapping. The trains are approaching 25 years old.

[runs as required]

Not entirely clear from the pics how the seats are reversable - especially in the view where there is a table with forward and rear facing seats.

Any clues anyone?

Won't it slow down turn-around of a late arriving train?

 

It looks a more complex rotating operation than the simple double-decker tram quick walk-through flip-over of seats upstairs and down.

dh

.

[jjb1970]

Have they adopted Japanese style rotating seats? The Shinkansen trains have used those for many decades and are turned around very quickly in stations.

[Titan]

Because of ever-increasing charges for train paths, SNCF seems to be standardising on double deck TGVs. Perhaps the Atlantique power-cars might be given new trailers, 

 

Would that make them an Atlantique Océane?

[SNCF stephen]

 

When I saw the video above I thought they were being sent for scrap. I hope I am wrong.

[Fat Controller]

 

When I saw the video above I thought they were being sent for scrap. I hope I am wrong.

Both trains were of condemmed stock; the coaching stock had the 'Z' used to indicate condemmed vehicles, whilst the power cars were heavily tagged.

[olivegreen]

Have they adopted Japanese style rotating seats? The Shinkansen trains have used those for many decades and are turned around very quickly in stations.

 

As far as could be seen in a TV report last week, yes.

[olivegreen]

Both trains were of condemmed stock; the coaching stock had the 'Z' used to indicate condemmed vehicles, whilst the power cars were heavily tagged.

Also, the TGV power cars are TGV SE (= the original) stock, not the later Atlantic ones.

[Foulounoux]

Alstom may need some good publicity they put on hold the plans to close the Belfort site yesterday ( geler : to freeze.)

All over the French TV news but as I was only catching up after abonimal 7hr journey from Charente to Bolougne I didn't get all the details

[JDW]

The interior looks far more welcoming and warm than anything I've seen from the privatised UK operators - especially first class, no cold leather (I'm no militant vegan but do we really need seats made from dead animals as a status symbol?), and a pleasant spacious bar area. Maybe we could learn a thing or two from them...

[Mike Storey]

A long article in today's regional newspaper (SudOuest) announces that Belfort will be saved by a further state investment in 15 TGV's for non-LGV lines (Bordeaux - Marseille and Montpelier - Perpignan) plus 6 new sets for the improved Paris - Milan services. This is conditional on Alstom spending around 40m euros on modernising and diversifying the Belfort and La Rochelle plants, with some eventual job reductions, but doubling theoretical capacity. Allied to this is an order for 20 diesel or bi-mode locomotives, the development of which Alstom must fund.

 

The emphasis does seem to be on saving Belfort prior to the general election due soon. La Rochelle, which does have a share of this new work, only has enough guaranteed orders currently to survive until the end of 2018, but has always had a much better capability for diverse products (trams and regional units as well as TGV work). However, it is not likely to vote for the Front National, unlike the population around Belfort.....The order has already been criticised as election fodder, in the absence of a realistic strategic plan. I am not sure what else the public or the industry/unions are expecting, given the recent announcements about LGV extensions, and the accelerated scrapping of 20/25 year old trains to create an artificial market for new orders. They cannot "legislate" SNCF or Alstom to get better at their jobs and win greater market share, instead of increasingly losing it.

[olivegreen]

A long article in today's regional newspaper (SudOuest) announces that Belfort will be saved by a further state investment in 15 TGV's for non-LGV lines (Bordeaux - Marseille and Montpelier - Perpignan) plus 6 new sets for the improved Paris - Milan services. This is conditional on Alstom spending around 40m euros on modernising and diversifying the Belfort and La Rochelle plants, with some eventual job reductions, but doubling theoretical capacity. Allied to this is an order for 20 diesel or bi-mode locomotives, the development of which Alstom must fund.

 

The emphasis does seem to be on saving Belfort prior to the general election due soon. La Rochelle, which does have a share of this new work, only has enough guaranteed orders currently to survive until the end of 2018, but has always had a much better capability for diverse products (trams and regional units as well as TGV work). However, it is not likely to vote for the Front National, unlike the population around Belfort.....The order has already been criticised as election fodder, in the absence of a realistic strategic plan. I am not sure what else the public or the industry/unions are expecting, given the recent announcements about LGV extensions, and the accelerated scrapping of 20/25 year old trains to create an artificial market for new orders. They cannot "legislate" SNCF or Alstom to get better at their jobs and win greater market share, instead of increasingly losing it.

 

Agree, it is all highly political and, I would add, populist and naïve.

 

Furthermore,  SNCF has made it quite clear that the railway neither needs nor, with its immense debt, can it afford these trains that the government is imposing upon it.

 

 

(Minor edit)

[jjb1970]

The continued survival of Alstom is one of the miracles of the modern world, they've been going bankrupt for as long as I remember, and state bailouts by the French government (whether direct, or hidden behind a veneer of conjuring up orders for stuff nobody wants) seem to be almost timetabled events.

[jjb1970]

I’ve never worked in rail, but Alstom have a major presence in the industries I have worked in (electricity generation, marine and offshore energy) and many of their product lines utilise the same basic technology despite differing applications (rotating machinery such as motors and generators, transformers, variable frequency drives, circuit breakers, switches, automated control systems etc). I have always found Alstom a bit of a Jeckyl & Hyde company. Some of their equipment is genuinely market leading and cutting edge and superbly built, then you’ll see something from them that begs the question of which lunatic ever thought that releasing this garbage for sale was a good idea? Equally on product support, some of the support I’ve experienced from their power conversion and turbine people is as good as anything I’ve seen and far better than most, then other parts of the company may as well issue a disclaimer to the effect that once we’ve received payment for whatever you’ve been mad enough to buy from us then don’t bother calling us again. The result is an inconsistency which I found rather perplexing. Whereas with Siemens, Hitachi, Mitsubishi, GE etc there was a consistency which gave you comfort and confidence (even where in some cases that consistent level was well below what the better parts of Alstom could deliver). The result was that at least two of the companies I worked for steadily moved from a position where Alstom were their major supplier of big ticket equipment (such as their big gas turbines and turnkey contracts for complete power plants) to one where you needed an extremely strong case to even have them considered unless there was no alternative and where rivals had supplanted them (especially Siemens). Which was sad as at their best Alstom are very good indeed.

[Focalplane]

I have experienced many journeys on the so-called Hybrid Duplexes which at one time were used primarily on the Paris-Montpellier-Perpignan route.  The term Hybrid implies that a set is composed of two Reseau power cars top and tailing a rake of Duplex carriages.  I have a few photos of them on my Sud de France collection.  The power generated by the Reseau units is slightly less but on the Paris-Montpellier run there is apparently no problem in keeping up with the schedule.  I believe there were about 20 Hybrid Sets built.

 

These days the Hybrids seem to have disappeared, partly due to the dreadful AVE Reseaus being given rights as far as Lyon.  Anyone know where they are?

[PaulCheffus]

The interior looks far more welcoming and warm than anything I've seen from the privatised UK operators - especially first class, no cold leather (I'm no militant vegan but do we really need seats made from dead animals as a status symbol?), and a pleasant spacious bar area. Maybe we could learn a thing or two from them...

Hi

 

I'm not a fan of leather seats either but the ones in the Italo trains are quite nice and weren't at all cold.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Joseph_Pestell]

The interior looks far more welcoming and warm than anything I've seen from the privatised UK operators - especially first class, no cold leather (I'm no militant vegan but do we really need seats made from dead animals as a status symbol?), and a pleasant spacious bar area. Maybe we could learn a thing or two from them...

 

What else do you want to do with all those animal skins? So long as people eat meat, there will be plenty available and it seems better to use them than send them to landfill.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Agree, it is all highly political and, I would add, populist and naïve.

 

Furthermore,  SNCF has made it quite clear that the railway neither needs nor, with its immense debt, can it afford these trains that the government is imposing upon it.

 

 

(Minor edit)

 

Something new by way of rolling stock is needed for the non-LGV routes such as Bordeaux-Toulouse. The Corail coaches on these services date from up to 40 years ago.

 

But they are heavily used and what is needed is plenty of space rather than the high-speed capability of a TGV. Subsequently, of course, as the LGV network is increased (Montpellier - Narbonne) this route will need TGVs, so I suppose there is some merit in building them now.

[GoingUnderground]

The Atlantique fleet was the original French TGV trains, and they did receive a makeover several years ago, a slightly unusual one in that in the 1st class cars, the 2 x 2 seats are partly screened off from the gangway, making them feel like a compartment, but the 1 x 1 seats do not have that same screening, making the occupants feel like they are sitting in the corridor. Like the Eurostar units, they will no doubt be scrapped to make way for the higher capacity Duplex or e320 units. Having seen the pictures of the new cars in the link at the start of this thread, they look to be a bit deficient in suitcase storage space, or at least for space for my wife's suitcase. 

[Dunsignalling]

The interior looks far more welcoming and warm than anything I've seen from the privatised UK operators - especially first class, no cold leather (I'm no militant vegan but do we really need seats made from dead animals as a status symbol?), and a pleasant spacious bar area. Maybe we could learn a thing or two from them...

Apart from any connotations of "luxury", I think the main reasons for adopting leather seat covers is that they are harder wearing than fabric alternatives and easier to keep looking good. 

 

Personally, I'm not a great fan, but I can see the logic. 

 

John

[JDW]

There's definitely a logic to it from that point of view yes, its hard wearing and easier to clean, but also much too hot when its in the sun, and freezing when its cold!

[olivegreen]

The Atlantique fleet was the original French TGV trains, and they did receive a makeover several years ago, a slightly unusual one in that in the 1st class cars, the 2 x 2 seats are partly screened off from the gangway, making them feel like a compartment, but the 1 x 1 seats do not have that same screening, making the occupants feel like they are sitting in the corridor. Like the Eurostar units, they will no doubt be scrapped to make way for the higher capacity Duplex or e320 units. Having seen the pictures of the new cars in the link at the start of this thread, they look to be a bit deficient in suitcase storage space, or at least for space for my wife's suitcase. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but… I always thought that the 'original French TGV trains' were the PSE units (the orange ones). The Atlantique fleet was a later build - from the outside, the most notable differences were the colour scheme and the roofs of the power cars which were faired into the fronts, rather than having the 'step' behind the cabs.

The rather odd first class seating arrangement in cars 2 or 12 and 3 or 13 (1 and 11 are usually ordinary opens) was there from the start in the Atlantiques (ie not the result of a makeover) and i would agree with you that it leaves much to be desired: I have never heard praise for it from any fellow traveller. As to the makeover of the fleets in general, SNCF spent what I presume must be vast amounts of money to get Christian Lacroix (who is what one these days calls 'a designer', I am told…) to redesign the seating, which is why, in second class, for example, we suffer these horrible purple and lime green seats, magazine racks that don't hold anything worth holding, elastic bits to hold tickets that don't (and in any case they were always a silly idea) and rubbish bins that are pretty useless, too (but better than those in first class, which are a challenge even to find! (Rant on design over)

But, as seems to be the standard in rail design, space for luggage, whilst vastly improved in second class in some but far from all of the units, is universally lamentable in first. When will interior designers realise that people travel with luggage?