East Midlands rail report calls for new trains and more capacity

[DavidB-AU]

East Midlands franchise will need to see renewal and expansion of its train fleet to meet the demands of the next decade, according to a report published on September 16 by incumbent operator East Midlands Trains (EMT).

 

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/main-line/east-midlands-rail-report-calls-for-new-trains-and-more-capacity.html

[griffgriff]

It's merely a begging letter to see if HMG will invest in new trains so EMT don't have to. They clearly didn't read the memo on the implications of rail privatisation

 

Griff

[Zomboid]

Well electrification is bound to lead to new trains, isn't it?

[RANGERS]

It's pretty much a statement of the obvious! No franchise holder is likely to invest their own cash in new stock unless there's a lengthy franchise which warrants it, this just highlights that fact.

 

There's a number of issues which the new franchise holder will need to tackle if any increase in demand is to be met.

 

There's limited scope to increase capacity on the main MML route with increased frequency, the paths currently don't exist (largely on account of the short sighted reduction in platform capacity at St Pancras when it was rebuilt), so any increase in capacity can only be from longer trains on the existing paths and filling in the few gaps which do exist. HST refurbs wouldn't do anything to help that.

 

There's a vagueness on DfTs part as to what the new franchise will actually consist of, the progress with electrification plans by December when the expressions of interest are invited will largely dictate what it finally materialises as. The smart money is on getting the wiring plans far enough advanced to ensure Kettering/ Corby are completed by 2020ish which could allow them to lump that into an extended Thameslink franchise. That would allow an increase in frequency, on paper at least, without a massive change to the amount of rolling stock the East Mids franchise would require. Redeploying the units and paths currently serving Corby could help increase capacity to destinations further North if this happened. Corby and all stations South would be served by Thameslink and run to terminal destinations beyond London.

 

I'm in no doubt many (probably DfT included) would like to see the East Mids services run non-stop from Kettering, it would allow an increase in capacity for the destinations North from there and Kettering would become the interchange, but the revenue EMT gets from the stations it serves south of Wellingborough is substantial so any changes in those services would have to be reflected in the revised franchise.

 

The other routes suffer less from a lack of paths, more from a lack of rolling stock. The Nottingham based 15X fleet is well short of meeting demand at peak periods and as it ages, availability will inevitably deteriorate. With no compatible units (or incompatible for that matter) available, the only option is new build as part of a longer term plan, which is where I'd suspect this report is coming from.

[pete_mcfarlane]

The other routes suffer less from a lack of paths, more from a lack of rolling stock. The Nottingham based 15X fleet is well short of meeting demand at peak periods and as it ages, availability will inevitably deteriorate. With no compatible units (or incompatible for that matter) available, the only option is new build as part of a longer term plan, which is where I'd suspect this report is coming from.

There's also the problem of platform lengths - some of the local stations only have platforms long enough for 3 cars (on in some cases, only have a section 3 car long maintained for use). So either SDO needs to be used (which doesn't always work, judging by the signs at Newark Castle asking people to board class 222 units in a particular way), or some platform lengthening is needed. 

 

I also see that a few things proposed in the past aren't mentioned, so presumably have died a death (doubling the Liverpool-Norwich frequency, a London train from Mansfield, extending the Robin Hood services to Bingham). I also couldn't see any mention of the Newark flat crossing problem, and how that's going to be solved. 

[great central]

There's also the problem of platform lengths - some of the local stations only have platforms long enough for 3 cars (on in some cases, only have a section 3 car long maintained for use). So either SDO needs to be used (which doesn't always work, judging by the signs at Newark Castle asking people to board class 222 units in a particular way), or some platform lengthening is needed. 

 

I also see that a few things proposed in the past aren't mentioned, so presumably have died a death (doubling the Liverpool-Norwich frequency, a London train from Mansfield, extending the Robin Hood services to Bingham). I also couldn't see any mention of the Newark flat crossing problem, and how that's going to be solved. 

The signs are to try to get through to passengers that there is more than ONE door on the train, usually the first class section is platformed and a lot of people would sooner take an age waiting to get in one door than walk through the train

Then the same people will be complaing about a late departure

[phil-b259]

It's pretty much a statement of the obvious! No franchise holder is likely to invest their own cash in new stock unless there's a lengthy franchise which warrants it, this just highlights that fact.

 

There's a number of issues which the new franchise holder will need to tackle if any increase in demand is to be met.

 

There's limited scope to increase capacity on the main MML route with increased frequency, the paths currently don't exist (largely on account of the short sighted reduction in platform capacity at St Pancras when it was rebuilt), so any increase in capacity can only be from longer trains on the existing paths and filling in the few gaps which do exist. HST refurbs wouldn't do anything to help that.

 

There's a vagueness on DfTs part as to what the new franchise will actually consist of, the progress with electrification plans by December when the expressions of interest are invited will largely dictate what it finally materialises as. The smart money is on getting the wiring plans far enough advanced to ensure Kettering/ Corby are completed by 2020ish which could allow them to lump that into an extended Thameslink franchise. That would allow an increase in frequency, on paper at least, without a massive change to the amount of rolling stock the East Mids franchise would require. Redeploying the units and paths currently serving Corby could help increase capacity to destinations further North if this happened. Corby and all stations South would be served by Thameslink and run to terminal destinations beyond London.

 

I'm in no doubt many (probably DfT included) would like to see the East Mids services run non-stop from Kettering, it would allow an increase in capacity for the destinations North from there and Kettering would become the interchange, but the revenue EMT gets from the stations it serves south of Wellingborough is substantial so any changes in those services would have to be reflected in the revised franchise.

 

The other routes suffer less from a lack of paths, more from a lack of rolling stock. The Nottingham based 15X fleet is well short of meeting demand at peak periods and as it ages, availability will inevitably deteriorate. With no compatible units (or incompatible for that matter) available, the only option is new build as part of a longer term plan, which is where I'd suspect this report is coming from.

 

Ahem... what about the 15x and 170 units being displaced from Anglia within the next 5 years?

 

Also given Corby, Kettering & Wellingborough are currently served by InterCity type stock - there will be uproar if they are forced to use 700s instead - which there are not enough of to extend beyond Bedford anyway.

 

My prediction for the next MML franchise would be more IEPs (bi-mode) so as to take advantage of the wires as they extend north and to remove diesels from St Pancrass - and allowing the dingy platform extension to have its roof cleaned or replaced with something more transparent. Extra DEMUs could come from cascades or maybe as a follow on to the Anglia ones.

[great central]

Ahem... what about the 15x and 170 units being displaced from Anglia within the next 5 years?

 

Also given Corby, Kettering & Wellingborough are currently served by InterCity type stock - there will be uproar if they are forced to use 700s instead - which there are not enough of to extend beyond Bedford anyway.

 

My prediction for the next MML franchise would be more IEPs (bi-mode) so as to take advantage of the wires as they extend north and to remove diesels from St Pancrass - and allowing the dingy platform extension to have its roof cleaned or replaced with something more transparent. Extra DEMUs could come from cascades or maybe as a follow on to the Anglia ones.

 

The 153s from Anglia won't be any use, unless a way is found to make them compliant with legislation post 2020, anyhow they must be around 30 years old now. The 156s are only a couple of years newer so again will be over 30 by the time Angila get rid of them. The 170s will be around 20 years old and in dire need of a re-furb, some of them are still in Anglia livery, despite two franchises since then.

So that'll be new trains for the south, new trains for the north, new trains for east anglia, recent new trains for the west midlands, but the east midlands might just get a few cast offs .

The MML has always been a cinderella line, now that's extending to the whole of the east midlands .

Always been the same since the GC was handed over to the LMR

 

PS, Not that I really like new trains though, much prefer my 156s and 153s even to 158s

[phil-b259]

The 153s from Anglia won't be any use, unless a way is found to make them compliant with legislation post 2020, anyhow they must be around 30 years old now. The 156s are only a couple of years newer so again will be over 30 by the time Angila get rid of them. The 170s will be around 20 years old and in dire need of a re-furb, some of them are still in Anglia livery, despite two franchises since then.

So that'll be new trains for the south, new trains for the north, new trains for east anglia, recent new trains for the west midlands, but the east midlands might just get a few cast offs .

The MML has always been a cinderella line, now that's extending to the whole of the east midlands .

Always been the same since the GC was handed over to the LMR

 

PS, Not that I really like new trains though, much prefer my 156s and 153s even to 158s

 

Re the 153s - relatively easy solution if the leasing company wants to go with it, turn then back into 2 car 155 units.

 

Re the156s - Southern and SWT are quite happy to continue using their 30 year old 455s (which admittedly have been given a decent refurbishment inside) and they are also looking at fitting them with a new traction package to give them plenty more life yet. Np reason why a leasing company cannot do the same for the 156s / 158s

 

Re the 170s - A refurbished interior is hardly a difficult thing to do and will come in way cheaper than new traction.

 

As someone else on this forum observed 'new' most definitely does not equal better - have a read up on the new Crossrail or Thameslink stock.

[griffgriff]

Re the 153s - relatively easy solution if the leasing company wants to go with it, turn then back into 2 car 155 units.

 

Re the156s - Southern and SWT are quite happy to continue using their 30 year old 455s (which admittedly have been given a decent refurbishment inside) and they are also looking at fitting them with a new traction package to give them plenty more life yet. Np reason why a leasing company cannot do the same for the 156s / 158s

 

Re the 170s - A refurbished interior is hardly a difficult thing to do and will come in way cheaper than new traction.

 

As someone else on this forum observed 'new' most definitely does not equal better - have a read up on the new Crossrail or Thameslink stock.

I don't think 455s have any emission problems

 

Griff

[phil-b259]

I don't think 455s have any emission problems

 

Griff

 

Neither do the 153s, 156s, 170s etc.

 

Emissions rules apply to new engine builds only. Hence why it is perfectly acceptable to refurbish 56s, 37s etc for mainline use - and why, provided the engines were not changed, a 153 could be converted back to 155.

[great central]

I'm not suggesting new is better, as I said I prefer my existing stock, I'm certainly not keen on 170s having spent 12 hours a day on them in Central days. But from a public perspective it's galling when it seems the east midlands is likely to get cast offs again. I positively dislike air conditioning in all it's forms but particulary in a rail environment, especially if there's no 'back up option', opening hopper windows as per 158

[Dava]

There is more to this report than just the mooted cascading of stock to the East Midlands so readers should think beyond the trainspotting possibilities which seem to fascinate some. As the report indicates, there is growing user dissatisfaction with service timekeeping, seating accommodation & many other matters, set against the remorselessly rising fares. Some paths never run to time. Many people are fed up of repetitive signaling delays around Leicester, thieving toe rags stealing signal cables again etc. Major Network Rail investment is needed too.

 

The region has economically vibrant cities but service speeds only marginally better than in 1996. Full electrification is well overdue and HS2 is uncertain both over if/when it happens and whether it makes much difference to city-city times from Derby/Nottingham. The West Midlands has had a much better deal on rail investment and the report doesn't even mention the 'Midlands Engine' initiative which ol' George Osborne tried to kick off, now presumed moribund.

 

Bombardier [Derby] and Hitachi [Durham] are well able to build the necessary trains. A commitment to invest in this vital rail network rather than other vanity projects [i can list them, some will disagree] will boost the region's economy. So can we raise the level of ambition beyond cascading 80's cast-offs and build new trains to replace the faithful IC125s and other, inferior, stuff?

 

Dava

[Zomboid]

There's going to be lots of newer "cast off" trains available. 185s spring to mind (unless I've missed an announcement), but frankly a decent refurb can do wonders. The 30 year old 455 fleet on SWT doesn't feel anything like that age, and nor do the 20 year old 158/159s. GWRs 165/166s don't feel their age either.

[phil-b259]

There is more to this report than just the mooted cascading of stock to the East Midlands so readers should think beyond the trainspotting possibilities which seem to fascinate some. As the report indicates, there is growing user dissatisfaction with service timekeeping, seating accommodation & many other matters, set against the remorselessly rising fares. Some paths never run to time. Many people are fed up of repetitive signaling delays around Leicester, thieving toe rags stealing signal cables again etc. Major Network Rail investment is needed too.

 

The region has economically vibrant cities but service speeds only marginally better than in 1996. Full electrification is well overdue and HS2 is uncertain both over if/when it happens and whether it makes much difference to city-city times from Derby/Nottingham. The West Midlands has had a much better deal on rail investment and the report doesn't even mention the 'Midlands Engine' initiative which ol' George Osborne tried to kick off, now presumed moribund.

 

Bombardier [Derby] and Hitachi [Durham] are well able to build the necessary trains. A commitment to invest in this vital rail network rather than other vanity projects [i can list them, some will disagree] will boost the region's economy. So can we raise the level of ambition beyond cascading 80's cast-offs and build new trains to replace the faithful IC125s and other, inferior, stuff?

 

Dava

 

Electrification may be overdue but.... I refer you to how the GWML & Scottish schemes are going.

 

Realistically if you want new Intercity stock within the next 5 years its going to have to be of the hybrid type - on paper (which is what the DfT will look at when awarding the next franchise) the IEP is the obvious choice. Just don't come winging that you would rather have your HSTs back after a few years.....

[griffgriff]

Neither do the 153s, 156s, 170s etc.

 

Emissions rules apply to new engine builds only. Hence why it is perfectly acceptable to refurbish 56s, 37s etc for mainline use - and why, provided the engines were not changed, a 153 could be converted back to 155.

.... but they are filthy compared to 455.... they don't even have an exhaust

[Edwin_m]

This campaign is calling for DfT to authorise procurement of new 125mph bi-modes to replace HSTs which don't comply with accessibility rules for use beyond 2020, and they would also have to designate them as franchise assets so the incoming franchisee has to take them on.  The bi-modes would then run part of their journeys under diesel power until completion of electrification in around 2023. 

 

The whole fleet could be replaced at this time or the Meridians could run on the route until 2023 and be replaced by more electric units then.  In practice these replacements would have to be the same design as the bi-modes, though possibly in an electric-only variant.  This probably means the Hitachi class 80x units, as no other supplier has a suitable design and would be unlikely to produce on in this timescale (the Stadler design for Anglia is only 100mph).  DfT would then be procuring a large-ish fleet from a single supplier, not necessarily the best value for money. 

 

The alternative would be to give a derogation for the HSTs to remain in use until 2023.  This would give the incoming franchisee the time to propose and procure whatever fleet they consider most appropriate, but would obviously postpone the service and accessibility benefits until then.  However all the HST routes also have day-long services that will by 2020 be provided by accessible stock. 

 

I don't think any of the other potential stopgap alternatives of Mk4 stock, 185s, 442s etc are viable as they couldn't keep to the existing schedules. 

[phil-b259]

In practice these replacements would have to be the same design as the bi-modes, though possibly in an electric-only variant.  This probably means the Hitachi class 80x units, as no other supplier has a suitable design and would be unlikely to produce on in this timescale (the Stadler design for Anglia is only 100mph).  DfT would then be procuring a large-ish fleet from a single supplier, not necessarily the best value for money. 

 

 

Erm.. Have you read up on the background to the IEP - a train that has cost the DfT FAR MORE than it should of done because they ran the procurement themselves rather than letting the specialist in the field do it (as they are allegedly all rip off merchants, despite numerous inquiries proving otherwise)

[Edwin_m]

Erm.. Have you read up on the background to the IEP - a train that has cost the DfT FAR MORE than it should of done because they ran the procurement themselves rather than letting the specialist in the field do it (as they are allegedly all rip off merchants, despite numerous inquiries proving otherwise)

Yes, I follow the writings of Roger Ford on this subject.  Which is part of the reason I'm a little skeptical of what would most likely turn out to be a single-source procurement ... although it's possible the price would go down (as it did for GWR) for run-on purchases once the development costs are paid off. 

[Zomboid]

Though the procurement process was a complete shambles which proved that the DfT can't be trusted to specify a train from the Hornby catalogue, the result is that there is now an off the peg design for a bi-mode intercity train capable of 140mph. If the EMT fleet is to be replaced, it certainly warrants consideration.

TPE already came to that conclusion and ordered some, after all.

[cheesysmith]

The EMT area needs a good long term plan for improvements. A lot of the network isnt set out for the present passinger flows, a legacy of the old midland railway and the then improtance of the coal traffic. The HS2 comming through could provide the base for improvments. It should , in my opinion, be built through toton, up the wood head and a triangular junction at the eastern end so high speed trains (doesn't have to be the HS trains) can run faster services between Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds and via a junction at toton to Nottingham. The MML needs the voyagers/meridians refitted with a pantograph coach and a power link between coaches, and refitting with tilt packs. The APT proved in the 70s the best way to make journey time improvements on the MML as using tilt. The latest story comming from DaFT is for the 185 to goto SWT to replace the 159s, which would actually be a good idea. SWT is already a Siemens stronghold and the ex SR line through to Exeter would allow them to run at full speed, unlike up here where the overweight DMUs that they are cannot used the enhanced speed limits for things like sprinters and HSTs. The old BR DMUs, with refurb, would last at least another franchise, which would allow time to see how many DMUs would be needed to be ordered for the entire network when several of the big DMU franchises come up for renewal. The 153 would be better rebuilt as 3 car trains (inc the WYPTE ones). This would only require the DDA bog on one coach, and would provide a perfect unit for the secondary tourist lines like the S&C, as due to the way they were built they have lots of glass and a good view outside.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The EMT area needs a good long term plan for improvements. A lot of the network isnt set out for the present passinger flows, a legacy of the old midland railway and the then improtance of the coal traffic. The HS2 comming through could provide the base for improvments. It should , in my opinion, be built through toton, up the wood head and a triangular junction at the eastern end so high speed trains (doesn't have to be the HS trains) can run faster services between Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds and via a junction at toton to Nottingham. The MML needs the voyagers/meridians refitted with a pantograph coach and a power link between coaches, and refitting with tilt packs. The APT proved in the 70s the best way to make journey time improvements on the MML as using tilt. The latest story comming from DaFT is for the 185 to goto SWT to replace the 159s, which would actually be a good idea. SWT is already a Siemens stronghold and the ex SR line through to Exeter would allow them to run at full speed, unlike up here where the overweight DMUs that they are cannot used the enhanced speed limits for things like sprinters and HSTs. The old BR DMUs, with refurb, would last at least another franchise, which would allow time to see how many DMUs would be needed to be ordered for the entire network when several of the big DMU franchises come up for renewal. The 153 would be better rebuilt as 3 car trains (inc the WYPTE ones). This would only require the DDA bog on one coach, and would provide a perfect unit for the secondary tourist lines like the S&C, as due to the way they were built they have lots of glass and a good view outside.

 

185s to SWT allowing 159s to strengthen 158 fleets elsewhere looks like a very sensible option.

[Zomboid]

The only question there is that they lack the corridor connections, which may be an issue with the amount of joining and splitting which goes on, and staffing on the regular 8 and 9 car trains.

Aside from that, it seems an eminently sensible way to get 100mph trains onto the SWML.

[cheesysmith]

If the idea of the 185 vs159 swap goes ahead, it would allow the 185 to use their full line speed ability whilst the 159 changed back to 158 MU spec would be able to use the EPS limits regi rail installed for them originally. And as to the problems of no gangway, the DaFT have already shown that it doesn't care about things like passinger amenities or comfort, judging by the latest train purchaises. All they want is maximum numbers of seats and DOO to cut costs anyway( and IIRC the 185 are fitted for DOO already). The DaFT inspired cost cutting is wrong (let's cut the workers at the coal face, whilst increasing the back room costs), but they do appear to be pushing for it especially down south.

[Zomboid]

185s to the Salisbury- Exeter line would need some platforms extending though, as Tisbury, Feniton & Whimple can only fit 3 coaches, but there are regular 6 coach trains. Without a gangway they'd either need extending or the stops omitting. Given that Tisbury has London commuters, I can't see non-stopping working there...

 

Anyway, how on earth did we end up on this subject? This is an MML thread...