Resolving print quality issues with Shapeways

[2mmMark]

I've recently ordered some N scale French metre gauge prints from Shapeways as the illustrations on their page looked quite reasonable.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/8R8NF2M8B/wagon-set-1-4-wagons-nm-1-160?optionId=20146943&li=ostatus

 

However what I received is really bad which only really came to light with a very thin coat of Vallejo model air primer:

 

I've raised the issue but I'm wondering if this is what can regularly be expected from Shapeways. It's quite disappointing as these apparently were checked before dispatch.

 

The initial reply to my complaint was "Do you also have images of the models without having them coated? We can not accept images of models that have been processed by the customers." As if a few microns of paint would affect matters!

 

I have responded but no reply as yet.

 

By contrast, the loco body I ordered at the same time is really good:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/3SQ4YWBU6/locotracteur-x-valences-nm-1-160?optionId=10039077

 

Looks like "Frosted Ultra Detail" should really be "Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt"

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

[Quarryscapes]

I've recently ordered some N scale French metre gauge prints from Shapeways as the illustrations on their page looked quite reasonable.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/8R8NF2M8B/wagon-set-1-4-wagons-nm-1-160?optionId=20146943&li=ostatus

 

However what I received is really bad which only really came to light with a very thin coat of Vallejo model air primer:

copy20161031_090026.jpg

 

I've raised the issue but I'm wondering if this is what can regularly be expected from Shapeways. It's quite disappointing as these apparently were checked before dispatch.

 

The initial reply to my complaint was "Do you also have images of the models without having them coated? We can not accept images of models that have been processed by the customers." As if a few microns of paint would affect matters!

 

I have responded but no reply as yet.

 

By contrast, the loco body I ordered at the same time is really good:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/3SQ4YWBU6/locotracteur-x-valences-nm-1-160?optionId=10039077

 

Looks like "Frosted Ultra Detail" should really be "Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt"

 

Mark

 

If you look at my posts in this section of the site, you'll see most of them are in very much the same fashion as yours. What shapeways would have you believe and what you actually receive are often times poles apart. FUD and FXD are very much a lottery as regards quality. It CAN be very good indeed if a lot of variables all fall into line in your favour. 

 

The issue is mostly with the support material. FUD and FXD will not print an overhang at all, not even a fraction of a mm. To hold up any overhang the machine prints a wax bed under it alongside the actual plastic of the model. ANy surface of the model that is in contact with the support material will come out at best with extra rough lines or at worst, what you see in your pictures - which is basically an amalgam of the lines and residual support material and actual plastic all screwed up. If you take a fibreglass brush to it you'll be able to sweep most of it away to get back to solid plastic, but beware, the plastic in the region around the any support is much more fragile than in unsupported areas, and it's fragile at the best of times. Any detail in there is likely to be lost. 

 

I've switched all my production to High Def Acrylate where possible, but this too is not without issues. 

[Brinkly]

That does seem poor Mark.

 

I bought a couple of LSWR 3D coaches last year from Scaleforum and they certainly don't look like this.

 

Would you be able to send them back?

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

[rue_d_etropal]

It is one reason I am happy with WSF . It is a lot stronger and more durable,and  is UV safe.  I know some don't like it, but for those that can be bothered they can always smooth surface down.Less problems with painting, although it is always worth gettting rid of any loose powder first. There have been stories about paint and effect on FUD. I do offer some of my designs in FUD, and have had no grumbles. I also have seen theses same models on one layout and no problems with them, so the sugestion about cleaning is a good idea.

Having said that , posting negative comments like this don't do anyone any help. A lot of hard work goes into the designs, and where possible test prints are done, but remember you are geting something which traditional manufacturers don't produce and alternative might be a kit or else you have to scratchbuild. I do wonder if some are expecting too much these days.

[2mmMark]

According to Shapeways, by painting them, I've "processed" the prints and they will not accept my complaint but have credited the cost of the print back to my account. I wonder what else might class as processing - extensively cleaning them perhaps? (which is what I also did)

 

Also said was "When you have placed a new order send me a reply so I can keep track of the order for you".

 

I'm inclined to give it one more go and if it fails, that's me finished with 3D printing, certainly at Shapeways, for now.

 

What's interesting is that the top half of the Fourgon is acceptable but the bottom half is not. Similarly the full sides of the Wagon Couvert are fine but the ends are not. This ties in with Quarryscapes findings about the wax supports.

[2mmMark]

It is one reason I am happy with WSF . It is a lot stronger and more durable,and  is UV safe.  I know some don't like it, but for those that can be bothered they can always smooth surface down.Less problems with painting, although it is always worth gettting rid of any loose powder first. There have been stories about paint and effect on FUD. I do offer some of my designs in FUD, and have had no grumbles. I also have seen theses same models on one layout and no problems with them, so the sugestion about cleaning is a good idea.

Having said that , posting negative comments like this don't do anyone any help. A lot of hard work goes into the designs, and where possible test prints are done, but remember you are geting something which traditional manufacturers don't produce and alternative might be a kit or else you have to scratchbuild. I do wonder if some are expecting too much these days.

 

Of course they help! People need to know what they could be getting from Shapeways. I got prints which are way worse than the photos of actual models on the designers page.

 

I've got some prints in WSF and they need so much smoothing down, it would be simpler and quicker to scratchbuild them.

[MarcD]

Hi,

 

I get most of my patterns 3D printed, however I've never used shapeways. I don't think I have ever seen such a set of rough prints before. Depending on what I want printing it normally use the corse setting as on open wagons it give a wood grain effect on both the inside and outside of the wagons.

 

The chap who does my prints uses nylon  

 

I have attached some of the parts we have had printed to show the quality I would be expecting.

 

Marc

[John_Hughes]

Hi,

 

I get most of my patterns 3D printed, however I've never used shapeways. I don't think I have ever seen such a set of rough prints before. Depending on what I want printing it normally use the corse setting as on open wagons it give a wood grain effect on both the inside and outside of the wagons.

 

The chap who does my prints uses nylon  

 

I have attached some of the parts we have had printed to show the quality I would be expecting.

 

Marc

 

Nice, Marc - who does your printing?

[billbedford]

However what I received is really bad which only really came to light with a very thin coat of Vallejo model air primer:

 

 

If you didn't notice the faults until after it was painted, how do you expect people at Shapeways to pick up the problem?

[2mmMark]

If you didn't notice the faults until after it was painted, how do you expect people at Shapeways to pick up the problem?

 

Maybe I expressed it badly. I was a bit concerned about the quality before painting but thought I'd try some primer to see if the prints be improved in any way.

 

Perhaps I'm expecting a bit too much from Shapeways but their prices are up at premium levels. They are doing this as their business so would it be wrong to expect them to have a feel for how well a print has turned out?

 

I get the feeling that most 3d printing is at "dot matrix" equivalent, with a few people being able to achieve "laser printer" quality.

 

Mark

[MarcD]

Nice, Marc - who does your printing?

 

CWRailways They have just been taken over new chap is called Tim. Chris who used to run it was very good turned things round in a few days the new chap is very good quality but is still finding his feet on the turn round times.

 

We do all our own 3D design and we can produce 3D drawings in all scales we just use CWRailways for the printing.

 

Marc

[Guy Rixon]

To be honest, the photos from the vendor look pretty rough, and consistent with your prints. I would not have bought the prints based on the apparent quality in the photos.

 

However, sometimes it works the other way. There's a PBV print in WSF from another vendor that suits my needs, but looked too coarse in the photos. When I saw a finished, painted print at Scalefourum it actually looked fine, so I bought one. This was for a teak-finish van where the paint finish can hide the roughness of the print finish.

[rue_d_etropal]

Given that this is a probem with FUD, it might be better to add that to heading. It is too easy for people to be put off when they see such headings. I am planning to try out some polished versions of my own designs in WSF, to see how much difference there is.

[Revolution Mike]

 

Perhaps I'm expecting a bit too much from Shapeways but their prices are up at premium levels. They are doing this as their business so would it be wrong to expect them to have a feel for how well a print has turned out?

 

Shapeways are far from a premium level (for 3D printing) and in comparison to many high end 3D printers Shapeways are very reasonably-priced!

 

The big problem with Shapeways has always been print orientation and variability of the process. They seemed to have largely sorted the variability of output but it looks like you were particularly unlucky.

 

I know Simon/Rue is happy with WSF but I wouldn't touch it for most things - it is too coarse (and not particularly easy to smoothe out).

 

The reality is that 3D printing is not particularly cheap nor does it give you a guaranteed perfect finish, but for one offs or very small runs it can have its place.

 

Cheers, Mike

[SpoorObjecten]

Hi All,

 

Mitchell here (I'm the Customer Service Coordinator at Shapeways).

 

So I've done a little bit of digging to see what is going on here.

I can confirm that the quality you've received is below our standards and we apologize for this.(*)

 

However we also see that you've ordered back in August, we would have loved to receive this feedback right away upon receiving the package.

The reason we need this feedback right away is not just because our terms and conditions but also because we can talk to the people that planned, printed and post processed the models to see if they noticed any strange behavior from the printer (we do log stuff, but some stuff is just not noticed till after a complaint).

Looking back at the logs, the day we printed these models, no mention of issues with the printer was mentioned.

 

As I've mentioned, the quality is below standards, but this doesn't have to do with orientation as Mike mentions above in this particular case. (@mike, not saying you are wrong tho...customer set orientation is something we do need for FUD, personal opinion)

The model was printed bathtub style, like we print all trains/coaches (this lowers the amount of support material required by a big factor).

 

I've checked the file and added some visuals to show how the model will be affected by support material when printed "normal" versus upside down/bathtub (how SW prints).

 

Bathtub: (sorry, i didn't add any visuals on the side of this one!)

 

normal:

 

yellow: model

red: support material (wax)

 

Basically the support material needs to support anything that sticks out.

When printing bathtub style we use the minimum amount of support material as we don't have to fill the inside of the model to support the roof and at the same time, in case of this model, the least amount of support on the side is used. <-- this is orientation used when printing your model!

When printing normal, we have to support the roof everywhere (it sticks out on every side) and thus the model would look ###### (excuse my words).

 

 

 

*Why your model looks this bad, I don't know, something obviously went wrong!

As a courtesy of Shapeways I have issued a reprint for the full set. 

You'll receive an email from us with the new order number, we'll do our best to have it printed in a quality standard you should expect from us.

[Quarryscapes]

Here we are, the extreme ends of the scale of FUD quality! http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/111145-shapeways-qc-gone-downhill-or-are-they-just-picking-on-me/ 

 

[nick_bastable]

quality customer service I hope the reprints are suitable

 

 

NIck

[2mmMark]

Hi All,

 

Mitchell here (I'm the Customer Service Coordinator at Shapeways).

 

So I've done a little bit of digging to see what is going on here.

I can confirm that the quality you've received is below our standards and we apologize for this.(*)

 

However we also see that you've ordered back in August, we would have loved to receive this feedback right away upon receiving the package.

The reason we need this feedback right away is not just because our terms and conditions but also because we can talk to the people that planned, printed and post processed the models to see if they noticed any strange behavior from the printer (we do log stuff, but some stuff is just not noticed till after a complaint).

Looking back at the logs, the day we printed these models, no mention of issues with the printer was mentioned.

 

As I've mentioned, the quality is below standards, but this doesn't have to do with orientation as Mike mentions above in this particular case. (@mike, not saying you are wrong tho...customer set orientation is something we do need for FUD, personal opinion)

The model was printed bathtub style, like we print all trains/coaches (this lowers the amount of support material required by a big factor).

 

I've checked the file and added some visuals to show how the model will be affected by support material when printed "normal" versus upside down/bathtub (how SW prints).

 

Bathtub: (sorry, i didn't add any visuals on the side of this one!)

 

normal:

 

yellow: model

red: support material (wax)

 

Basically the support material needs to support anything that sticks out.

When printing bathtub style we use the minimum amount of support material as we don't have to fill the inside of the model to support the roof and at the same time, in case of this model, the least amount of support on the side is used. <-- this is orientation used when printing your model!

When printing normal, we have to support the roof everywhere (it sticks out on every side) and thus the model would look ###### (excuse my words).

 

 

 

*Why your model looks this bad, I don't know, something obviously went wrong!

As a courtesy of Shapeways I have issued a reprint for the full set. 

You'll receive an email from us with the new order number, we'll do our best to have it printed in a quality standard you should expect from us.

 

Mitchell, many thanks for arranging the reprint. Looking forward to receiving them.

 

Yes, I did receive the prints in August but we're in the middle of building an extension to our house, so modelling time is limited to a few snatched moments late in the evening.

 

What I'd planned to do was to get the loco & wagons in primer and running in time for ExpoNG which was last Saturday.

 

I'll give an update when the replacements arrive.

 

Mark

[John_Hughes]

CWRailways They have just been taken over new chap is called Tim. Chris who used to run it was very good turned things round in a few days the new chap is very good quality but is still finding his feet on the turn round times.

 

We do all our own 3D design and we can produce 3D drawings in all scales we just use CWRailways for the printing.

 

Marc

 

Thanks - can I ask how well the nylon takes paint?

[MarcD]

Can't tell you we use the parts as patterns so I don't paint the parts

 

Marc

[John_Hughes]

Can't tell you we use the parts as patterns so I don't paint the parts

 

Marc

 

Fair enough, thanks!

[rue_d_etropal]

Can the heading for this be changed, as it has been sorted out (and could have been checked before, and Shapeways contacted first) and negative comments in headings can hurt everyone using Shapeways to produce items.

When I have shown my items at exhibitions, most are amazed at the quality of WSF, given that if they have read anything about it they tend to think is is a lot worse than in reality.

[2mmMark]

Can the heading for this be changed, as it has been sorted out (and could have been checked before, and Shapeways contacted first) and negative comments in headings can hurt everyone using Shapeways to produce items.

When I have shown my items at exhibitions, most are amazed at the quality of WSF, given that if they have read anything about it they tend to think is is a lot worse than in reality.

 

I believe you're being a bit over sensitive but I'm happy to amend the subject and have done so.  I'm reminded of Apple fanbois and their outraged reaction when their kings new clothes are challenged.

 

What we need is a realistic assessment of 3D printing. I'm still sceptical but was prepared to give it a go. For my money, you have to go a long way to beat high quality etching and resin castings for limited production items. However I do realise that a lot of people are attracted by the unitary nature of a 3D print and are prepared to accept shortcomings in surface finish.

 

I shall happily build and run my N scale metre gauge train and see what people's reactions are to it. Will it be one of my favourite models? Possibly not but at least it'll be something different.

 

Mark

[MarcD]

When I started to using 3D printing I was told that the quality of the finished item is directly to 3 factors

1. production drawing (needs to be built from a solid block)
2. CAD system (we used AutoCAD we were told that the we might have problems with turboCAD)
3. step value of the printer.

The chap who does our printing uses a machine a step value of 0.1mm which gives a very satisfactory finish for 7mm.

 

we draw every thing as 3D .dwg file then convert them to .stl files within AutoCAD 

 

Marc

[rue_d_etropal]

thanks for changing heading. I am not that sensitive, but I do keep coming across comments on various modelling things, which are based on misleading info. It is all too easy to believe what youmight have read, or seen,without fully checking it out. One reason I want to see more 3D printed stuff at exhibitions.

 

We do have to remember that 3D printing is still relatively new for personal use. The hobby has changed a lot over past few years. Traditional production methods are fine but they have limitations. Many of the cottage industries seem to have been set up in a very narrow period of time, so many of those involved are reaching that age when they want to retire, or worse. If someone else does manage to take over, there is no certainty that things will run smoothly. Many of those who start things going put a lot of effort into not only starting them up but keeping them going.

Now more people are expecting new items, which for r2r would not be economically viable, and fewer people are prepared to build complex kits. 3D printing can help here, but that does not mean it is perfect. It has the big advantage of reduced start up costs. No molds to produce, no stock to be manufactureed before the first item sells. It does still require a lot of work from the 3D designer, as I have found, but I enjoy that, especially as I know that once a design is finished, that is it. I can pass responsibility for production onto companies such as Shapeways. I can step off the treadmill, although I stepped onto another, designing even more models. Designing is very addictive.