Trip to England Part 9: This time we're not kidding - Debriefing.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Mike!

 

All the best and seasons greetings!

 

Castle

 

And to you and herself Castle, trust she is well.

[The Stationmaster]

Mike,

 

that is a much larger challenge for the foreign tourist than you might imagine.

 

People who live in the US do so in a place where the geography and the recorded habitation are vastly different from Britain and what you are able to do on holidays is very different here. It is actually very difficult to get an appreciation for the history of any town in Britain - with the exception of perhaps London and Edinburgh from outside Britain. It would require a significant amount of research and, perhaps more importantly, a starting point.

 

The "it's Tuesday, so it must be Belgium" leitmotif exists because of a combination of two factors:

1. the real difficulty in overcoming an ignorance of things truly British by foreigners
2. opportunism by those selling package bus tours that take advantage of that ignorance

There's a lot of real ignorance of Britain here in the US. It's hard to overcome.

 

Post-Brexit, there are a lot of Visit Britain commercials airing in the US. This one ran some time ago:

 

There is one, very colourful commercial, in current rotation, purportedly extolling the relative virtues of London, Manchester, Wales and Cornwall tied with Expedia airing right now. I'd love to hear the reaction of Britons to it. (Sadly Google is not finding it for me.)

 

Fascinating - oddly four of the locations are within 40 miles of where I live so in effect a fair bit of concentration on London, which is of course the magnet for many tourists (and is accordingly seriously overpriced for many things).  Equally I notice that my relatively small home town which attracts thousands of foreign visitors in a single week once a year didn't figure at all (although we are rather specialised, but so is Wimbledon).  The thing about Britain is that there is an awful lot of all sorts of things if you actually bother to just scratch the surface let alone look underneath it - hence what several of us have said about York and Bath both of which have a tremendous amount to see and neither of which appeared in that ad.

 

I think the 'Tuesday so it must be Belgium' partly exists because of the idea that 'we must do Europe' and because it's geographically smaller than the USA there is a thought that it can all be seen in a short time - you could of course see most of it from an aeroplane in a relatively short time (on a clear day) but by flying above it, or around it, you won't experience any of it.  Thus to get to know it takes time - for example I regularly travelled to Paris and Brussels for work reasons and managed to see a reasonable amount of both, sufficient to find my way around on tourist trips and thus pick up the things (or some of them) that both really have to offer.  But you're doing rather well because you're getting some very useful information on here about things that are worth seeing in some of the places you will be visiting and that is probably worth several thousand websites and tourist guidebooks

[rockershovel]

Just for clarity, Hardwick is Elizabethan (1st)

Hardwick Hall, more glass than wall! Another fine place to visit.

[Castle]

And to you and herself Castle, trust she is well.

Hi Mike,

 

Both doing well thanks. We are just managing to catch up with ourselves... The metal 'other women' is coming on nicely too! Should have her tender back from No. 5051 and the vast majority of her original bits back on for the end of July...

 

Similar glad tidings to Mrs Stationmaster and the little station porters and cats!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[rockershovel]

Not with a car unfortunately.

Visiting Yorkshire without a car should be grounds for deportation! Never mind Tintern Abbbey, beautiful though it is; Rievaulx or Fountains Abbeys knock it into a cocked hat, Whitby Abbey and the adjacent church ...

[Gwiwer]

 

 

The thing about Britain is that there is an awful lot of all sorts of things if you actually bother to just scratch the surface let alone look underneath it

Absolutely Mike.  And true almost where ever you go not just confined to the pretty and / or tourist hot spots.  In a land with documented history going back thousands of years and with tangible remains recording the past for many thousands more we are a richly-blessed little island.  Many of us with strong connections to a particular area could probably act as some sort of tour guide and provide visitors with a fascinating insight into the area in question.  Stop and smell the roses.  

 

I used to drive buses in west Cornwall.  We loved the tourists most of the time.  The Americans were particularly "good value" for a number of reasons.  I liked the couple who lugged their expensive-looking luggage up and down the row of parked vehicles in the bus station (which, it must be said, has never paraded the finest rolling stock the industry has to offer largely due to the impoverished nature of the region) before approaching me and asking which was the First Class Car.  Hmmmm.  Then there was the chap towing enough luggage to have hired his own container - and with wife somewhere at the back of a line of suitcases - who tried swiping his Amex card through the ticket machine.  We didn't then and they still don't yet have that technology on the buses but his attitude was "It's American Express - it's good everywhere".  Not quite.  As a strong Wesleyan Methodist area in God we trust - others pay cash.

 

We were asked quite often "What do you do when this place closes?"  It doesn't close.  Cornwall (and indeed the entire UK) is not a theme park.  It's where we live and work year round.  Come and see us during the winter storms.  60-foot waves smashing into the cliffs, sea-floor shingle picked up and thrown onto the roof of a bus as it approaches Penzance over the cliff  - I've had that twice and if you know the area you'll know that means the water, debris and all also has to clear the railway before even reaching the road.  I did like the elderly couple who flagged me down, boarded and requested two tickets to the "City Centre".  The total fare was 44p for a 5-minute ride.  I was offered a £20 note and told to keep the change and "Have a cold one".  Upon arrival I was then "tipped" another £20.  Yes, I like Americans!  But some have a perception of reality beyond their own shores we found rather bemusing.

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2016 by Gwiwer

[OnTheBranchline]

Hi All,

 

OTBL and I have been conspiring in the background and it seems that the last Sunday in July (30th) happens to coincide with his trip. To this end he is going to be the first person signed up for 2017's RMWEB tour and unless I hear different, he will win the furthest distance travelled award! So put it in you diaries and come an meet me and OTBL at Didcot and get the behind the scenes tour!

 

I look forward to seeing you all there!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

What's the prize?

[Castle]

What's the prize?

An enormous sense of self satisfaction at a job well done!

 

At worst I'll buy you a cup of tea!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[OnTheBranchline]

Visiting Yorkshire without a car should be grounds for deportation! Never mind Tintern Abbbey, beautiful though it is; Rievaulx or Fountains Abbeys knock it into a cocked hat, Whitby Abbey and the adjacent church ...

I am sure that Gwiwer could say the same thing about Cornwall

[OnTheBranchline]

We might switch the zipline at bethesda with a walk at llyn ogwen/llyn idwal.

[branchie]

We might switch the zipline at bethesda with a walk at llyn ogwen/llyn idwal.

Noooooo. Just do both!

[rockershovel]

I am sure that Gwiwer could say the same thing about Cornwall

Oh, ok then.... went down for No 1 Sons wedding in October. Spent a sunny afternoon on the cliff tops at Wheal Coates, a rather ambiguous afternoon at Botallack and Levant (I once worked at Wheal Geevor.. it's all over, isn't it?) and a pint or two in the Queens Head. Walked up Carn Brea, where you can see both coasts on a clear day. I once had a rather memorable weekend in the Mullion Cove Hotel, less said the better given present domestic arrangements.

 

Re bus standards in West Cornwall, I only have one thing to say... Grenville Motors!

Edited December 26, 2016 by rockershovel

[brianusa]

.   I did like the elderly couple who flagged me down, boarded and requested two tickets to the "City Centre".  The total fare was 44p for a 5-minute ride.  I was offered a £20 note and told to keep the change and "Have a cold one".  Upon arrival I was then "tipped" another £20.  Yes, I like Americans!  But some have a perception of reality beyond their own shores we found rather bemusing.

 

 

 

 

I must confess that when we come home, I tend to 'tip' more than I really should!  With all the change in the UK especially Pound coins, one tends to unload them frequently and when tipping waiters, etc,  we tend to tip US percentages whereas relatives seem to leave a lot of small change!  Also instead of handing over small change to transactions, one tends to keep handing out Pound coins.  At least I do, instead of ending up at Heathrow with pockets full of small coins.

 

Brian.

[Gwiwer]

Oh, ok then.... went down for No 1 Sons wedding in October. Spent a sunny afternoon on the cliff tops at Wheal Coates, a rather ambiguous afternoon at Botallack and Levant (I once worked at Wheal Geevor.. it's all over, isn't it?) and a pint or two in the Queens Head. Walked up Carn Brea, where you can see both coasts on a clear day. I once had a rather memorable weekend in the Mullion Cove Hotel, less said the better given present domestic arrangements.

 

Re bus standards in West Cornwall, I only have one thing to say... Grenville Motors!

 

An ambitious day indeed, strenuous but interesting.

 

Mining - it's not all over yet - I haven't heard the corpulent female give song ......

 

Buses - Grenville Motors are long gone.  Probably as well since they didn't seem to adhere to any standards.  If it would start it was fit for use.  Whether it stopped coming down Beacon Hill was another matter ..... More recently the late Stanley Thomas, best described as colourful and irascible, commenced Brookside Travel using a fleet of down-at-heel cast-off minibuses parked in (rather than on, such was the depth) mud at his Relubbus home.  That operation lasted until the then First Western National was up a commercial dead-end and obliged to discuss terms with him.  Brookside ceased bus rivalry though Stanley's son Thomas (Tommy) Thomas and his son Jimmy retain a small minibus operation to this day though the now First in Kernow operation is at last getting some new buses (the previous new ones were delivered in 1994) which should permit many of the oldest to be converted into baked bean tins.

 

Tommy Thomas trading from Relubbus was, incidentally, no relation to Tommy Thomas who ran Lands End Coaches, a one-man one-coach operation out at Sennen.  Only in Cornwall would you have two chaps named Thomas Thomas with their own bus and coach businesses within 15 miles of each other.  Unless anyone knows different.

[rockershovel]

Re #239, I didn't do all that in one afternoon!

 

I'm afraid the singing lady packed her winged helmet and left, having got bored waiting, sometime around 2003. For reasons which don't belong here, I've never regarded the mysterious doings at South Crofty as having any serious value.

 

Sounds like the spiritual successors to Grenville Motors are alive and well! I shared a house with some other CSM students up beyond Troon in the mid-70s, at a place called Boswyn, with a bus stop called Croft Mitchell. Notionally, Grenville Motors sent four buses a day there. However, experience showed that (since the bus had the same schedule for going there, or just turning round in Troon, and nobody else lived anywhere near the bus stop) ANY bus would go there if asked, but waiting there without having forewarned the driver was a fool's errand. Unless, of course, you we're going to Helton, in which case the Western Nat service would stop if hailed, although it wasn't on their schedule

[OnTheBranchline]

Of the places we plan to go to, are there any good places for the sunrise/sunset?

 

I would think that Alexandra Park in Bath would be one because the park overlooking the city.

[Torper]

I'm beginning to wonder if this is a genuine serious thread......

 

DT

[adb968008]

If we landed at Heathrow at 6:30am, how long do you think it would take to collect our bags and use to Heathrow Connevt to go to Paddington?

I have heathrows pleasure on average once every two weeks.

I find getting out early, never happens.

The problem with Heathrow is it's too small for the demand, land early, there's no gate, no queue at immigration..but too many bags, even out of immigration there can be traffic queues or broken escalators.

 

I find average is 45 minutes to clear immigration and be outside ready for onwards transportation, can be 60 has been 15, can even be 10 minutes for a domestic flight.

 

TBH depending where you are going, the Heathrow express can be a slow option, Piccadilly line gets you to the west end in 45 mins and runs every 5 minutes, if you miss the Hex.. you've got a 15 minute wait followed by a 15 minute journey and a 15 minute taxi to the west end... that's by the time your done that's nearly £60 vs <£10 pp.. and your still lumping round luggage.

 

Heathrow has its compensations though... it has a fantastic whisky shop with very good prices.

Another tip.. fancy some duty free whilst in the EU.. try to fly via Switzerland.. no DF payable at EU airports (inc UK).

Edited December 27, 2016 by adb968008

[adb968008]

I only suggested it because:

A) The future SWIMBO would like to see parts of Oxford University.

B) It's actually faster to get to Portsmouth from Oxford than it is from Windsor Castle by train (if Google Maps is to be believed).

 

We have revised the itinerary again:

Day 1-4: Flight into London (Heathrow) and touring London - Airbnb

Day 5: Train from Paddington/Windsor Castle/Swindon/End in Portsmouth - stay with relatives

Day 6: Portsmouth - visit relatives

Day 7: Train from Portsmouth/Salisbury Cathedral/Stonehenge (future SWIMBO's request = not removing it)/End in Bath - Airbnb

Day 8: Train to Didcot/Night in Bath - Airbnb

Day 9: Tour Bath/Night in Bath - Airbnb

Day 10: Bath/Rent car from Bath/Castle Combe/End at Thornbury Castle Hotel

Day 11: Drive to Tintern Abbey/Caerphilly Castle/End and stay at Gladstone's Library (I am aware that it would be a 4 hour drive from South to North Wales).

Day 12: Drive from Gladstone's Library to ZipWorld Bethesda/Caernarfon Castle/End in Crewe - stay with friends

Day 13: Day trip with friends to Snowdon Mountain Railway/Walk around Snowdonia (ideally the Fairy Glen/Betws-y-coed)/End in Crewe - stay with friends

Day 14: Early train from Crewe to York/Tour NRM/York Minister - Airbnb

Day 15: Other York things and train back to London - Airbnb

Day 16: Leave London for Hampton Court Palace and Flight out from Heathrow (Flight would leave at 6pm, so if we got to HCP for 10am, I think we would have enough time).

 

Now when you look at it, the revised itinerary is a big improvement on the original. For most of the trip, we would be sleeping in the same bed for more than one night (four nights in London, two nights in Portsmouth, three nights in Bath and two nights in Crewe). There are some long days for sure (Day 5 and Day 11 in particular), but there are also quite a few relaxing days (Day 6, Day 8-10, Day 13). It's funny, someone mention how Swindon to Portsmouth would be a long haul, but it looks like Windsor Castle to Portsmouth would take roughly the same time (if the train time via Google is to be believed). Also, when we come back, we will have a day of rest as we will fly back on a Sunday and the Monday is a civic holiday.

Hope jet lag doesn't get you, from bitter experience most NYC -U.K. Flights are an evening East Coast departure, followed by takeoff / meal / breakfast and landing... your lucky if you get 4 hours sleep, with time difference a 6.30am arrival off a 6.30pm US departure and a full day ahead of you before bed. Depending on time of year, the jet stream could strip up to 90mins off the booked arrival time too.. (I flew a UA 777 in 5hrs one January.. >100mph tail wind in the pilots own words " we were smokin" that night)..., though if you did chances are you'll do donuts round the boonies or wait on the tarmac for a gate...awake of sorts.

 

You may want to check your hotel is good with an early check in (b4 2pm), but if your planning an action itiniery you need to be awake day 1.. otherwise days 2,3&4 are going to be run off adrenaline, dead mornings and wide awake nights.

(I'm doing a US trip in Jan, and my own experience I'm routing back for an SFO-UK flight.. in 12 hours I should be able to get 8 hours rest !!!)

 

Day 15/16, why not airbnb by hcp.. no need to lug or stash your luggage.. quite nice around their, booked taxi will cost around £20, and take around 20mins outside rush hour to the airport, you'll have no problem finding a nice restaurant for dinner.

 

Indeed I might consider swapping days 5 & 15.. Windsor castle is close to the airport, , HCP and Portsmouth share Waterloo services and saves crossing London termini (1 hour there and there's a baggage storage there, or otherwise leave From Windsor and Elton riverside towards Clapham for a Portsmouth service..don't go back to Paddington for Portsmouth, but then you need to stash luggage..they won't let you take it in the castle !

 

Good dose of UK culture in that itiniery.

 

Final tip, Heathrow alternates landings and take offs half way though the day, on a weekly basis (flight radar will show you which way there doing it that week)..

If your landing mornings from the West.. an A seat gives you a view of Windsor castle, >F window will give you a view of londons water storage.

if your landing from the East, an A seat might give you a view of HCP and if it's the northerly runway a view of Concorde, but a >F window seat will give you a full 360 of central London, starting at Canary Wharf and following a line just south of the Thames showing tower bridge, Tower of London, Houses of Parliament, Buckingham palace, Westminster and Hyde park..even Wembley on a clear day..., and if it's the southerly runway a view of Concorde too.

Either way at 6-9am Heathrow is a cosmopolitan collection of large aircraft from across the globe on a scale of variety and quantity unmatched anywhere else In the world.

Edited December 27, 2016 by adb968008

[Ozexpatriate]

Fascinating - oddly four of the locations are within 40 miles of where I live so in effect a fair bit of concentration on London, which is of course the magnet for many tourists (and is accordingly seriously overpriced for many things). 

Here's the commercial I really wanted to show you.  It's in heavy rotation right now.

 

I'm curious what Britons think about it.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Ozexpatriate

[adb968008]

Here's the commercial I really wanted to show you. It's in heavy rotation right now.

 

I'm curious what Britons think about it.

Personally people from their own country shouldn't make adverts about themselves as they market to an image they don't fully understand. It's better to have people from the host country input to it, as only they know what appeals best about the target country.

 

I'd imagine Australians know as much about a Cornish fishing villages, as British people know about NSW fishing towns (FYI I can't think of any and I've been to Oz 6 times and sure they eat fish). So I am surprised theirs no website suggest to visit as a starting point for ideas, as the word Cornwall might be forgotten after a few minutes.. as would Manchester and Wales to those who don't know them... if the aim if to encourage me to travel further, then the starting point needs to be one I know, hence my admiration for the research the OP has made into their proposed trip !

Edited December 27, 2016 by adb968008

[Ozexpatriate]

But you're doing rather well because you're getting some very useful information on here about things that are worth seeing in some of the places you will be visiting and that is probably worth several thousand websites and tourist guidebooks

It certainly would take a lot of research (along with a stupendous reserve of patience and stamina to deal with the rot you have to wade through to get there).

[Ozexpatriate]

We were asked quite often "What do you do when this place closes?"  It doesn't close.  Cornwall (and indeed the entire UK) is not a theme park.  It's where we live and work year round.  Come and see us during the winter storms.  60-foot waves smashing into the cliffs, sea-floor shingle picked up and thrown onto the roof of a bus as it approaches Penzance over the cliff  - I've had that twice and if you know the area you'll know that means the water, debris and all also has to clear the railway before even reaching the road.

There are parts of the United States where there's not much to do other than the pub when the sun goes down. The Oregon coast is one such place. It doesn't have multiple centuries millennia of human habitation to give it the same character as say Cornwall - we make up for that with the forests, but when the sea's up and the wind is howling the fishermen are home with their boats in safe anchorages.

 

The intrepid James Cook RN did leave his mark with the prosaically named "Cape Foulweather". I presume he knew a lot about that subject.

 

We did have someone swept out to sea from the shore at Cape Perpetua last week. (Cook named that location too, his book of common prayer telling him it was the feast of Sts Felictas and Perpetua at the time.)

Edited December 27, 2016 by Ozexpatriate

[pH]

There are parts of the United States where there's not much to do other than the pub when the sun goes down. The Oregon coast is one such place. It doesn't have multiple centuries of human habitation ...

 

 

I think 130, maybe 150, centuries would count as "multiple".

[Ozexpatriate]

I think 130, maybe 150, centuries would count as "multiple".

Sorry, I was thinking multiple millennia and accidentally wrote centuries. Now fixed.

 

But there's not much to see from 13,000 years ago!  I was thinking more like the last 5,000 years.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Ozexpatriate