RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted November 20, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2016 I have a GWR pattern crossover (designed to avoid facing points) which goes from line 1 to line 3 crossing line 2 on a diamond. In effect i need to switch 4 frogs from one switch. I thought I had worked out a satisfactory method but it's shorting out so clearly wrong. Using a dpdt switch as illustrated Any ideas??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium dhjgreen Posted November 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 20, 2016 If you draw the wiring for reversed onto the diagram for normal, in a different colour, you should immediately see your problem. Edit: a four pole switch is available Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted November 20, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2016 self help improves the mind and makes you stronger. Using the Brian Lambert site to see how he switches a diamond the switch looks like this If I am right I can use this by connecting the grey and yellow wires as scratched onto the bottom of my original diagram. Anyone tell me if I'm rigbt or wrong? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium dhjgreen Posted November 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 20, 2016 self help improves the mind and makes you stronger. Using the Brian Lambert site to see how he switches a diamond the switch looks like this 20161120_143037.jpg If I am right I can use this by connecting the grey and yellow wires as scratched onto the bottom of my original diagram. Anyone tell me if I'm rigbt or wrong? 20161120_143053.jpg See above Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted November 20, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2016 If you draw the wiring for reversed onto the diagram for normal, in a different colour, you should immediately see your problem. Edit: a four pole switch is available Thanks for trying to help. Im terribly sorry but i don't understand your response? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium dhjgreen Posted November 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 20, 2016 You have 4 frogs in this circuit. In either of your proposed solutions you are connecting a number of them together. Drawing all the wiring on one diagram will show this. I see no alternative to a 4 pole switch. I presume Brian was switching a simple diamond on its own. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium dhjgreen Posted November 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 20, 2016 This is what I mean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium dhjgreen Posted November 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 20, 2016 So the red frogs in the LH diagram are connected together by the black wires, so the green wires are not doing what you expect. A separate pole for each frog will solve your problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted November 20, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2016 thank you very much. Down tools and send for new switches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium dhjgreen Posted November 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 20, 2016 Someone else is bound to be along soon with another opinion Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Only the double pole switch is needed so long as all of the red rails and all the blue rails are in the same section, which is normal for DCC but for DC I would expect each of the three tracks to have a different section to allow running a train on each of the three tracks. Thus for DC I would expect to have to complicate things a bit. However, assuming all one section your original circuit looks to be correct. Are you sure that it is actually wired as drawn? Regards PS David said, You have 4 frogs in this circuit. In either of your proposed solutions you are connecting a number of them together Indeed two of the frogs are connected to red for normal, to blue for reverse, so these two can be connected and switched together, vice versa for the other pair, hence a double pole switch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 What is key is are all the blue and red rails fed from the same feed? If so what you have drawn is fine and you could use a switch that works in conjunction with one of the points to keep things simple. If the middle road is from a different feed then things get a lot more complicated. What you have drawn should not result in a short if the switch is set the correct way (which is easy if it works with the points). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted November 20, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2016 Thanks all. The middle road (indeed all three roads) are different feeds from the same controller. They are all wired with feed and return the same way round, as shown on my diagram. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff park Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 As far as I can tell this is the same diagram, electrically, as the first one in this post. There are no short circuits, whichever way the switch is thrown. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted November 20, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2016 As I originally had it wired this switch was causing a short which was making my controller short out. When i disconnected the switch it resolved the short. I thought my original approach was logical. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 If you are using only the one controller this is OK. Most times a double track layout would have 2 controllers at least. Since the obtuse (K) crossings of the diamond are part of the centre track you will need that section turned on when using the crossover to avoid a dead section. As per my previous post, the diagram is OK, if you have a short its coming from the wiring or the track. Check all the insulated joints on the frogs and also check that the wiring is correct to diagram. Regards PS. If I understand correctly the rewiring has resolved it. Which means the original wiring was not actually to the diagram since the diagram is correct. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted November 20, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2016 Hi Keith. Nothing is resolved as i still dont know the right way to wire the switch. Disconnecting it just proved to me that the switch was the issue. As others have asked , this was my full wiring diagram and track layout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 You presumably have insulated joiners on the frog rails... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted November 20, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2016 You presumably have insulated joiners on the frog rails... The frog rails are gapped but dont have joiners. All frogs are isolated and separately fed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Colin, earlier you said that all was from one controller, but your diagram shows controllers 1 and 2 with common return, so as wired shorts may or may not occur depending on which sections are swithed to which controllers. Please confirm that the two controllers have independent transformer windings so they are suitable for common return. Can you advise which rail is your common return, the red or blue on the diagram? Also please advise which direction is up and down on the photograph. With that I should be able to produce a diagram that properly allows for the different sections when switching the frogs. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted November 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 20, 2016 Is it possible for you to check the particular DPDT slider switch you are using? I ask because I encountered an issue a while back and eventually found that it was the slider switch that was the problem, the connectors inside not clearing properly and breaching the separate contacts. It's probably an outside chance but may be worth checking. Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted November 20, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2016 Colin, earlier you said that all was from one controller, but your diagram shows controllers 1 and 2 with common return, so as wired shorts may or may not occur depending on which sections are swithed to which controllers. Please confirm that the two controllers have independent transformer windings so they are suitable for common return. Can you advise which rail is your common return, the red or blue on the diagram? Also please advise which direction is up and down on the photograph. With that I should be able to produce a diagram that properly allows for the different sections when switching the frogs. Regards Hi Keith. I said one controller to simplify the question as i am currently only testing with one. You are quite right the aim is for cab control with two separate controllers. Blue is return red is feed. Lines are top to bottom down loop, down main, up main, up loop I really appreciate this help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon H Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I am struggling to get past my concern over the welfare of that poor slide switch pictured in Post #3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 I've not forgotten my offer but I want to do a decent job of a drawing for you, and this has turned out to be a heavy week at work. Note that, while your diagram pairing up the frogs is fine if the station is all one section, that would make it difficult to use the crossovers with two trains present let alone make proper use of the two controllers. To do the switching properly allowing for your two controllers and 4 sections you do need 4 changeover contacts for each of the three track crossovers. There are two choices here, gang two slide switches together, which would mean redoing some of your mechanical point drives, or using relays, which I would see as the better option but will need an auxiliary power supply. I'll do the drawing with relays unless I hear otherwise. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted November 22, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 22, 2016 I've not forgotten my offer but I want to do a decent job of a drawing for you, and this has turned out to be a heavy week at work. Note that, while your diagram pairing up the frogs is fine if the station is all one section, that would make it difficult to use the crossovers with two trains present let alone make proper use of the two controllers. To do the switching properly allowing for your two controllers and 4 sections you do need 4 changeover contacts for each of the three track crossovers. There are two choices here, gang two slide switches together, which would mean redoing some of your mechanical point drives, or using relays, which I would see as the better option but will need an auxiliary power supply. I'll do the drawing with relays unless I hear otherwise. Regards Thanks Keith I really appreciate this. Would 4 pole switches not be an alternative? Would they not equate to the joined DPDTs? If im right thats the option I'd like to take. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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