Andrew P Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I like the idea of the through Station like Quorn but, and it's a BIG BUT, Fiddle Yards take a lot of room, if your talking 6 Coaches plus a Loco that's 7ft, so a minimum of 14ft for the two Fiddle Yards. A larger Terminus will also give more real operation, and long term could be more interesting, the only down side to a Terminus is your Freight operation side, it's more restricted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 In one sense, you've already got a Minories, so what would be the point of building another one? (I'm not saying there wouldn't be one, just ask yourself the question - if building structures is what you like then that's the point). On the other hand, I agree with Andy; you'll get much more play per metre from a largish urban terminus, and you'd only need one FY. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted April 3, 2017 Author Share Posted April 3, 2017 And that is the dilemma... I do like my minories it's very easy to operate and it works well as a whole. Shunting the stock and messing with train formations is also great fun, parcels, dairy and fish also add variety. Overall it's a great plan and the throats gives great access to all platforms... The downsides are: no freight (resolved by a lower level yard) and train lengths (solved by bigger version). The other downside is that trains run in and out, the benefit of a train running through is variety and recreating operations... The downside is as well pointed out enourmous fiddle yard space required... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard i Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 helixes might be the solution at one end and stock underneath, you could have it run down the back of the top for one end befor turning and apperaing thus making a roundy roundy withouth the consumption of space. Go pregrouping trains are shorter and so are coaches but you still read a five coach train how ever long five coaches are. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 Cheers for the suggestions I think my time period is well and truly set in 1965,although seeing your layout the pre-grouping looks awesome, especially the private owner wagons with the small pits feulling the nation! I have considered helixes but I am rubbish at woodwork and my Bachmann locos hate inclines, when I had my original big rounds roundy they struggled to pull five coaches and even when weight was added it was less than stellar! I really am torn for future ideas... thankfully they are just that... future ideas as minories work well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 How about having a large oval for the freight operation to run through the station and have a terminus within the loop? Such an arrangement has the best of both worlds and can be extremely effective when disguised with scenery. Additional benefit of being able to run in new engines on the same layout. Tetley's Mills had a similar arrangement in its Mk2 guise 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) Fiddle yard- through station- fiddle yard does mean that more may have to happen in the fiddle yard than in the scenic section which may be fine for an exhibtion layout but I'm not sure how much fun it would be for a home layout. The great advantage of an urban location like yours is that through tracks, particularly goods lines and possibly single track, running past a terminus but not part of it sometimes at a lower level, are perfectly credible. There were several in London but Birmingham Moor Street. Plymouth Millbay (line running on to docks mostly freight but in GW days Ocean Mails as well), Southampton Terminus (ditto and with Pullmans to the Ocean Terminal in recent times) Weymouth (harbour tramway and the Portland branch) also come to mind. Southampton was also an example of a different arrangement where a main line terminus branched off a through main line fairly close to the station. That was quite common in other countries particularly France and N. America where the railway wanted to get a main line terminal close to the heart of a city (e.g. Orleans, Tours, Lille & Biarritz) but couldn't or didn't want to build their main line across the city centre. I'm sure there were examples in Britain (Norwich Thorpe?) . Depending on traffic flows the junction for these was quite often a triangle but not always. Edited April 4, 2017 by Pacific231G 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 I think TBH I'm guilty of doing what I normally do and plan for the short term.... So I have been daydreaming (thankfully after some DIY)... The loft space is huge. ATM I am limited by family pressure to 3.4m by 1m in the loft, however... if in the future I was allowed to expand there is 6m by 5m, avail. This would mean a huge future layout would maybe be possible. So with that in mind maybe I need to see the next step as phase 1 leading to a phase 2 and 3 etc... Please find attached MONSTER PLAN! It has the GCR and Minories Scan0036.pdf 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 I think TBH I'm guilty of doing what I normally do and plan for the short term.... So I have been daydreaming (thankfully after some DIY)... The loft space is huge. ATM I am limited by family pressure to 3.4m by 1m in the loft, however... if in the future I was allowed to expand there is 6m by 5m, avail. This would mean a huge future layout would maybe be possible. So with that in mind maybe I need to see the next step as phase 1 leading to a phase 2 and 3 etc... Please find attached MONSTER PLAN! It has the GCR and Minories You're not far off there a design for a fixed in the house plan that i've always liked, but never had the oppotunity to put into action, pictured below. This gives you the terminus and through stations plus the only time you'd need to shunt and turn locomotives is in the terminus station saving yourself time 'behind scenes' handling trains. I've done 2 basic drawings below, the first just shows the simple arrangement. In the second, if you felt brave enough to run a gradient up to the minories terminus (didn't you want it on arches anyway?) then you could put your storage loops along the stretch marked A and hid them beneath the terminus. Another alternative is putting the through station at C which would not only line it up nicely for the junction, but leaves B clear to be something like a big impressive Viaduct across the middle of the room. Lots of options there just to give you more future ideas... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 Nice plan that! I think minories will definitely be on arches, I'm loathe to add gradients because I'm rubbish at wood work and maths and none of my locos seem to run on them... I have some ideas that will make minories appear on arches and give a good scenic break. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) I have reverted to some old style planning with lining paper... as you can see Majories is quite a terminus! It will make use of my existing scalescenes terminus buildings! It's quite a beast! The good news is 5 plus loco will fit as is into platform 1 and 3... if I extend the lines by 30 7 plus loco will fit, which I think is more than reasonable. I'm still planning the lower level which will more than likely be a goods yard onto a future continuous run section... This is the view from the back- the side which will be effectively hidden by the backscene Edited April 4, 2017 by danstercivicman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomJ Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 There is a great plan in the Peco N gauge track book for something similar. It was for 7x3ft I think in N so could easily fit in your space in OO - and even extended. Basically an oval on the lower level and a branch to a high level terminus over the top. Finally a reversing loop Allows trains to return to the terminus. Lots of retaining walls and tunnels. The terminus could easily be laid out as a Minories style. At the back you could add a fiddle yard - perhaps even a scenic one as carriage sidings or refuge loops. So trains leave the terminus, run round as many times as you want then reverse and can return so no handling needed and only shunting needed at the terminus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 The good news is 5 plus loco will fit as is into platform 1 and 3... if I extend the lines by 30 7 plus loco will fit, which I think is more than reasonable. You need to fit two locos in with the carriages - the arriving loco, and whichever one takes the train back out (new train engine or a shunt to the sidings). Being within the platform isn't so critical for the second loco, but it needs to fit inside the signals and not snarl up the approach tracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted April 5, 2017 Author Share Posted April 5, 2017 You need to fit two locos in with the carriages - the arriving loco, and whichever one takes the train back out (new train engine or a shunt to the sidings). Being within the platform isn't so critical for the second loco, but it needs to fit inside the signals and not snarl up the approach tracks. Good call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted April 5, 2017 Author Share Posted April 5, 2017 After a lot of thinking when I should have been sleeping.... I have come up with Phase 1. It is the foundation of what can be expanded to become a roundy/roundy and also a gritty urban decline layout. The focus is on the elevated Minories Terminus which serves a gritty run down area (think Wolverhampton 1965...) It also has a viaduct through line (both run off the same fiddle yard, which has a spur coming from the goods yard (the back of which you can see modelled in a static fashion). Eventually the goods yard spur and the through track will become part of the full layout, and the through viaduct will feature a basic fiddle yard at one end to add interest. Overall I think that its a place to start. The Viaducts will be 8.5cm high and in between there will be a dump of urban dereliction- possibly a run down and abandoned canal or some dodgy under viaduct businesses cutting and shutting cars. Into this the last bastion of the GCR Birmingham Extension will run.. Birmingham Hope Street (V.2) or Hopehampton. I haven't decided which. The odd Jubilee hauled 6 coach express and the Bournemouth-Birmingham Service making the odd exception to the grind of suburban working and Semi Fasts to Marylebone as the 4MT's and V3's clank out their last gasps of steam with the lines closure earmarked for 1967... Gloom gloom gloom I think its a cracking place to start! The viaducts will be engineers blue brick this time! Scan0039.pdf 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted April 5, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 5, 2017 I think TBH I'm guilty of doing what I normally do and plan for the short term.... So I have been daydreaming (thankfully after some DIY)... The loft space is huge. ATM I am limited by family pressure to 3.4m by 1m in the loft, however... if in the future I was allowed to expand there is 6m by 5m, avail. This would mean a huge future layout would maybe be possible. So with that in mind maybe I need to see the next step as phase 1 leading to a phase 2 and 3 etc... Please find attached MONSTER PLAN! It has the GCR and Minories You are going to need at least three people to operate that layout fully: one for the terminus, one for the GCR station and one for the fiddle-yard. However, you (and they) should get a lot of enjoyment out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Dan, Have you looked at Borchester Market, as the basis of an idea? http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80479-a-borchester-market-layout-appreciation-topic/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted April 5, 2017 Author Share Posted April 5, 2017 Dan, Have you looked at Borchester Market, as the basis of an idea? http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80479-a-borchester-market-layout-appreciation-topic/ Hello, yes, that was very much in my mind when I couldn't sleep I love Borchester Market and my take on the double track viaduct is similar to the idea of the coal road which curves away from Borchester Market Station. I'd like mine to be more bleak and depressive in terms of setting and avoid having the Engine Shed there as I have plans for that in Phase 2! Hopefully this new plan will capture some of the Borchester Market feel? A good shout and one of the greatest layouts ever 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted April 5, 2017 Author Share Posted April 5, 2017 Phase 2 (if I'm ever allowed) would look something like this.... It would be the loops around the 'Steel Works' towards the fiddle yard! Scan0040.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 I think better use of the Loco Depot area for the Goods Yard, for ease of coupling and un-coupling etc. And stick the MPD in the area where the Goods Yard is at the moment, as that would be Light Engine Movements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted April 5, 2017 Author Share Posted April 5, 2017 I think better use of the Loco Depot area for the Goods Yard, for ease of coupling and un-coupling etc. And stick the MPD in the area where the Goods Yard is at the moment, as that would be Light Engine Movements. Yeah that makes good sense... the loco depot would be in a good point there as it would fill that corner nicely, in the meantime the 'scenic' goods roads could be scrap roads of withdrawn locos. I think the spur running into the viaduct might really be overkill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted April 6, 2017 Author Share Posted April 6, 2017 (edited) Plan 500, Version B, Subsection A, Annex C.... I have taken the feedback about the MPD and worked it in. It looks like the resistance from the Boss to a layout that uses the entire loft will be significantly higher than expected. The Landowners and Bosses' are concerned about the lack of storage space (there is a thing called a tip for non railway stuff).... Here is Phase 1 and 2... Phase 3 would be the extension of the running lines Phase 1 and 2 indicated on the plans Phase 1.1 is the construction of the basic terminus (and fiddle yard) Phase 1.2 is the construction of the MPD turntable and bits (this is more for static effect at this stage and runs from a line from the fiddle yard) Phase 1.3 is the construction of the Goods Yard. ATM this is the same level as the terminus, however it may be better at a lower level. For now the Goods Yard terminates but that end section will be removable for Phase 3. TBH, I may need to rationalise the track somewhat...but this is the general theme! Phase 2 is the expansion to the junction. This puts in the large curves and the scenic section to the fiddle yard which is now pushed further around the room... As you can see from the attached photo even the smallest platform bay will easily take a five coach train (with room to spare). The longest bay will accept a 7 coach and two locos so that will be used for the inter-regionals and expresses. The majority of the workings will be Semi-Fasts, suburban's and DMU's... Feedback welcome. Financial Gifts most welcome!!!! Scan0042.pdf Edited April 6, 2017 by danstercivicman 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted April 6, 2017 Author Share Posted April 6, 2017 FINAL TRACK PLAN PHASE 1 AND 2 (subject to revisions...) I have rationalised some of the over duplication...I'm leaving the option open for the line past the goods yard to be doubled but it is as planned a singled goods line Scan0043.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 Without having looked at the latest track plan I would advise that you need to consider the space you have now and not anticipate something you might have in the future. The problem with thinking with the future in mind is that it probably won't happen either in a reasonable timescale or at all. I made that mistake gathering stock for a layout in a future house that was about 10 years into the future. Ended up with too much stock and no railway. I also found dreaming of the future layout blighted what I had available, so rather than enjoy what I had I felt somehow disappointed. Build into what you have space for, don't overfill with track and then when/if the extra space became available build new whilst keeping the existing in situ until the new can replace it. You've an excellent layout now, if you rip it up and start over will its replacement be a masive improvement or just a little bit better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted April 6, 2017 Author Share Posted April 6, 2017 Without having looked at the latest track plan I would advise that you need to consider the space you have now and not anticipate something you might have in the future. The problem with thinking with the future in mind is that it probably won't happen either in a reasonable timescale or at all. I made that mistake gathering stock for a layout in a future house that was about 10 years into the future. Ended up with too much stock and no railway. I also found dreaming of the future layout blighted what I had available, so rather than enjoy what I had I felt somehow disappointed. Build into what you have space for, don't overfill with track and then when/if the extra space became available build new whilst keeping the existing in situ until the new can replace it. You've an excellent layout now, if you rip it up and start over will its replacement be a masive improvement or just a little bit better? That's a fair point, I do like my current 'minories', the main frustration is firstly I know I can do better and secondly it doesn't cater for larger services. I'd very much like to add the MPD and Goods Yard at some future point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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