Birmingham Hope St- BR (ex GCR) Minories Style Urban Layout 1965

[Joseph_Pestell]

That's the idea

 

That is such a good layout, I've seen pictures of it running br late crest green. A very cohesive layout. The working goods lift is impressive

 

I think urban layouts look good running on viaducts. It adds depth . Thanks for the pics

 

I can further simplify Birmingham Castle Street...  It makes more of the viaduct

 

Would it be naughty of me to suggest that you could probably also include through tracks, like Moor St?

[Flying Pig]

That's the idea

That is such a good layout, I've seen pictures of it running br late crest green. A very cohesive layout. The working goods lift is impressive

I think urban layouts look good running on viaducts. It adds depth . Thanks for the pics

 

I can further simplify Birmingham Castle Street...  It makes more of the viaduct

Could you try substituting curved points for just the four that I've highlighted? I know it isn't completely Bastille, but it will maintain the flow of the main line. It's quite obvious from things like bogie swing when a loco runs between short sections of straight and curved track and I find it a bit jarring to watch.

 

[Ian_H]

That's the idea

 

That is such a good layout, I've seen pictures of it running br late crest green. A very cohesive layout. The working goods lift is impressive

 

I think urban layouts look good running on viaducts. It adds depth . Thanks for the pics

 

I can further simplify Birmingham Castle Street...  It makes more of the viaduct

Hi Dan,

 

I think the Bastille plans are very interesting and will provide a lot of enjoyment if you proceed with these designs. I can get a great deal of pleasure watching the shunting movements of ECS and have spent a couple of hours watching a few videos this afternoon that John Elliott (Leeds City - The Midland Side) produced of his last model "Bradfield Gloucester Square". Perhaps you are familiar with the videos but if not here a link for the "6.35am Preparing mainline departures";

 

 

There are quite a number of Johns' videos on YouTube but I guess they can also be found on RMWeb Bradfield Gloucester Squaretopic ...from  say page 21 onwards.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/28198-bradfield-gloucester-square-br-1962-ish/page-21

 

Ian

[danstercivicman]

Could you try substituting curved points for just the four that I've highlighted? I know it isn't completely Bastille, but it will maintain the flow of the main line. It's quite obvious from things like bogie swing when a loco runs between short sections of straight and curved track and I find it a bit jarring to watch.

 

Studio_20180324_164234.jpg

 

 

Like this?

 

It actually gives more space in the station

[danstercivicman]

Hi Dan,

 

I think the Bastille plans are very interesting and will provide a lot of enjoyment if you proceed with these designs. I can get a great deal of pleasure watching the shunting movements of ECS and have spent a couple of hours watching a few videos this afternoon that John Elliott (Leeds City - The Midland Side) produced of his last model "Bradfield Gloucester Square". Perhaps you are familiar with the videos but if not here a link for the "6.35am Preparing mainline departures";

 

 

There are quite a number of Johns' videos on YouTube but I guess they can also be found on RMWeb Bradfield Gloucester Squaretopic ...from  say page 21 onwards.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/28198-bradfield-gloucester-square-br-1962-ish/page-21

 

Ian

Such a brilliant layout

 

I have seen a few of them but not all- so I will now be busy

[danstercivicman]

Would it be naughty of me to suggest that you could probably also include through tracks, like Moor St?

 

Good future proofing...  I will build the capability to make the far two lines through lines...

[Flying Pig]

Good future proofing...  I will build the capability to make the far two lines through lines...

You might be interested in Wigan Central, which was built with extension in mind (along with a number of interesting chemicals, judging by the station building).

[danstercivicman]

You might be interested in Wigan Central, which was built with extension in mind (along with a number of interesting chemicals, judging by the station building).

 

 

Quite interesting that.   Looks like it was made on a raise embankment and then they never developed the line further on!   Seems like a lovely set of buildings for what was a secondary route

 

I think I'm happy now with my plans.  I have added a goods spur which will go to the goods building.  I've also worked out how to so the boards!!!  

 

1x1 m 1x1 m (cut down) and 2 x.06 m.   Thats for the main sections

[Flying Pig]

Quite interesting that.   Looks like it was made on a raise embankment and then they never developed the line further on!   Seems like a lovely set of buildings for what was a secondary route

 

I think I'm happy now with my plans.  I have added a goods spur which will go to the goods building.  I've also worked out how to so the boards!!!  

 

1x1 m 1x1 m (cut down) and 2 x.06 m.   Thats for the main sections

I've had a play with your goods yard. You now have on the left, top to bottom:

 

- a reception road,

- two roads running into a half relief goods warehouse (grey shaded area), with a goods platform between,

- a headshunt for the kickback siding

 

This only needs a bit of realignment and doesn't cost any more points. For a few more points, I've added:

 

- a runround to make shunting the kickback much easier,

- an extra kickback siding

 

I'm not sure what I'd do with the kickback sidings, but I wouldn't want to put large buildings over them and hide the view of the station throat. Coal drops perhaps?

 

[danstercivicman]

Nice

 

I'll remodel it later that's a good adaption.

 

Yeah I think coal drops into the lower level some gloomy scenes could be modelled that way. A bit like moor st with the lower level or the kings x coal drops

[31A]

This all looks very promising but not wanting to pour cold water, I have a dim and distant memory of reading that it was a Ministry of Transport requirement for a terminus to have the facility for a loco to run round its train (obviously that no longer applies in this day and age of multiple unit working).  Therefore, I would suggest putting a release crossover at the buffer stops end between at least one of the pairs of platform roads, even if you don't often use it.  Even if I'm wrong and it wasn't an actual requirement, they were very common features of steam age terminus layouts.

[Zomboid]

If the very top road is #1, I would put a crossover for run round purposes on 4 & 5. This would allow passenger trains arriving on 4 to run round, and also freight trains arriving on 5.

A run round will make it possible to shunt the whole goods yard & kickbacks with one engine.

[Flying Pig]

A couple more in the light of 31A's comment and I promise to stop doodling after this. I like middle roads for some reason and they do provide a loco release without blocking a platform as well as a dead end for vans to lurk on.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Flying Pig

[danstercivicman]

A couple more in the light of 31A's comment and I promise to stop doodling after this. I like middle roads for some reason and they do provide a loco release without blocking a platform as well as a dead end for vans to lurk on.

 

Studio_20180325_172023.jpg

 

Studio_20180325_171933.jpg

 

Like this?

If the very top road is #1, I would put a crossover for run round purposes on 4 & 5. This would allow passenger trains arriving on 4 to run round, and also freight trains arriving on 5.

A run round will make it possible to shunt the whole goods yard & kickbacks with one engine.

 

Let me know if you still think one is required in the latest plan?

 

Platform 2 and 3 appear the most suited to long distance trains.  1 is a bay/parcels platform.   4 is goods reception.   5 goods. 6 goods 

Edited March 25, 2018 by danstercivicman

[danstercivicman]

This all looks very promising but not wanting to pour cold water, I have a dim and distant memory of reading that it was a Ministry of Transport requirement for a terminus to have the facility for a loco to run round its train (obviously that no longer applies in this day and age of multiple unit working).  Therefore, I would suggest putting a release crossover at the buffer stops end between at least one of the pairs of platform roads, even if you don't often use it.  Even if I'm wrong and it wasn't an actual requirement, they were very common features of steam age terminus layouts.

 

Clearly didn't bother Minories

 

I think pretty much even terminus in steam days had a run round or a traverser like Moor St so deffo a good idea.  I was just being tight with points/turnouts

[Zomboid]

I'd still put a run round in the goods yard myself. Even if you've got a shunter for the cost of a crossover you could get rid of the train engine without waiting for it. And if you've got no shunting loco then the train engine needs to get on the back, and I don't think freight would arrive on 2/ middle/ 3 during passenger hours.

[danstercivicman]

I'd still put a run round in the goods yard myself. Even if you've got a shunter for the cost of a crossover you could get rid of the train engine without waiting for it. And if you've got no shunting loco then the train engine needs to get on the back, and I don't think freight would arrive on 2/ middle/ 3 during passenger hours.

Would you run into 3 or into 4 for the goods? 4 to 5 for the release?

[Zomboid]

Depends on the purpose of 4. If it's part of the goods yard then I'd arrive on it and run round on 5. If it's a platform primarily then I'd probably arrive on 5 and use 4 as the run round (using 6 would eat a lot of the goods handling facilities). [i'm not counting the middle road as a number]

 

But... I have done no research into this. If I were building this I'd do that research and quite possibly change my tune...

Edited March 25, 2018 by Zomboid

[danstercivicman]

Depends on the purpose of 4. If it's part of the goods yard then I'd arrive on it and run round on 5. If it's a platform primarily then I'd probably arrive on 5 and use 4 as the run round (using 6 would eat a lot of the goods handling facilities). [i'm not counting the middle road as a number]

 

But... I have done no research into this. If I were building this I'd do that research and quite possibly change my tune...

Haha, yeah I think it's gonna be a choice rather than an informed decision. 4 makes sense with the run round into 3 or 5. 3 is platform. 5 is a siding

[Flying Pig]

Like this?

 

 

Let me know if you still think one is required in the latest plan?

 

Platform 2 and 3 appear the most suited to long distance trains.  1 is a bay/parcels platform.   4 is goods reception.   5 goods. 6 goods

 

If I understand you correctly, by 4 you mean the 5th line from the top of the plan, on which you have put six carriages in your diagram. As you have things at the moment, the next line down, 5, makes a much better reception since it's connected directly to the headshunt, which 4 is not. If you want to use 4 as the goods reception, you need to revise the connections so that the train can be drawn directly back into the headshunt, without movements onto the main line.

[Pacific231G]

Clearly didn't bother Minories

 

I think pretty much even terminus in steam days had a run round or a traverser like Moor St so deffo a good idea.  I was just being tight with points/turnouts

I need to check this but ISTR that Paddington didn't but relied on shunting locos to bring coaches to and from the station and a departing train would generally be followed out by sometihing like a Pannier tank. 

 

The dificulty with loco releasing traversers is that only two main line termini in the whole of Europe used them ; Birmingham Moor Street and Paris Bastille.  I suspect the reason for that was that loco release to an adjoining platform wasn't all that useful at most main line termini simply because the opposite platform was likely to be occupied. I know from accounts of its operation that the releasing crossover between the "bay" platforms at the old Fort William station fell into disuse and was eventually removed long before units appeared. The lochside platform never had any form of release in any case and the station pilots were kept busy when trains were being worked through. 

 

I'll look it up but I think the BofT requirement was to avoid trains being constantly propelled out of stations by the locos that had brought them in. 

[danstercivicman]

I need to check this but ISTR that Paddington didn't but relied on shunting locos to bring coaches to and from the station and a departing train would generally be followed out by sometihing like a Pannier tank. 

 

The dificulty with loco releasing traversers is that only two main line termini in the whole of Europe used them ; Birmingham Moor Street and Paris Bastille.  I suspect the reason for that was that loco release to an adjoining platform wasn't all that useful at most main line termini simply because the opposite platform was likely to be occupied. I know from accounts of its operation that the releasing crossover between the "bay" platforms at the old Fort William station fell into disuse and was eventually removed long before units appeared. The lochside platform never had any form of release in any case and the station pilots were kept busy when trains were being worked through. 

 

I'll look it up but I think the BofT requirement was to avoid trains being constantly propelled out of stations by the locos that had brought them in. 

 

 

How about this?

 

The Headshunt is signified by H

 

Goods Reception Line is line 6 (GR)

 

Loco release is line 7 and line 3

Edited March 26, 2018 by danstercivicman

[danstercivicman]

If I understand you correctly, by 4 you mean the 5th line from the top of the plan, on which you have put six carriages in your diagram. As you have things at the moment, the next line down, 5, makes a much better reception since it's connected directly to the headshunt, which 4 is not. If you want to use 4 as the goods reception, you need to revise the connections so that the train can be drawn directly back into the headshunt, without movements onto the main line.

 

I think we are thinking of the same thing- I've redrawn the plan- hopefully it works now?  

 

I don't think shunting onto the UP main would be a problem at quiet times but at busy times it would restrict passenger workings

[danstercivicman]

I've removed some of the duplication of the throat.  It moves the plan away from Bastille slightly but I don't think any running is affected...

 

Also re configured the goods yard slightly...

 

 

[Pacific231G]

I've removed some of the duplication of the throat.  It moves the plan away from Bastille slightly but I don't think any running is affected...

 

Also re configured the goods yard slightly...

Looking at a few of them, what seems to have often happened was that many main line termini originally had an arrival and a departure side with a couple of extra tracks between them. There was often a loco release crossover on the arrival but not the departure side and, though this pattern of working generally disappeared, the single releasing crossover still urvived at termini like Bath Green Park  and Cheltenham St. James. presumably because it was useful for some shunting. The GWR also used a scissors crossover for releasing locos at Plymouth Millbay  and probably elsewhere. 

Marylebone did have relasing crossovers between both pairs of platforms while others such as Bournemouth West had no releasing crossovers at all and simply relied on the station pilot. The net result of all this seems to be, do what suits you and don't worry about the Board of Trade's preferences; the railway companies clearly didn't. 

 

The centre road 3 should though add to the general sense of grandeur of the terminus. Frank Dyer used that arrangement of a three way and two points on Borchester Market as I think did the MRC on their O gauge Happisburgh . However, Peco don't do a symmetric three way in Code 75 and their Code 100 three way though described as "medium" has a nominal radius of 24 inches for the two branching tracks. Their curved turnouts also have an inside radious of 30 inches so are a bit tighter than a straight left or right medium.