South Wales Valleys in the 50s

[chrisf]

On how auto trains were described in working timetables:  some time in the 1950s the description was changed to "rail motor".  Clearly someone did not know that these beasts were withdrawn by 1935.

 

Chris 

[Compound2632]

21 hours ago, The Johnster said:

TTBOMK, only the GW and WR used the term 'auto train', and further cofused the matter by referring to them as 'motor trains' in the working timetables.  I believe the LMR and SR referred to theirs as 'push-pull' trains.

 

"Motor Train" was the Midland term and, as far as I'm aware, always the LMS term, going right back to the Midland's steam rail motors; by late LMS days I think "rail motor" referred to the Sentinel self-contained units, although those had all gone before 1939:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of Midland Railway Study Centre Item 77-11931.]

 

7 hours ago, chrisf said:

On how auto trains were described in working timetables:  some time in the 1950s the description was changed to "rail motor".  Clearly someone did not know that these beasts were withdrawn by 1935.

 

Well, that's simply re-use of a convenient term; there would be no ambiguity.

[The Johnster]

 

This shot is the result of changed working of the colliery exchange siding, which is now assumed to be a loop with the 'country' end out of sight off stage, worked by a ground frame released from the signal box, and the train 'locked in' by the guard.  The loco then detaches and runs around, the driver exhanging tokens at the signalbox during this procedure, and the guard operating the ground frame again, to retrieve the van.  When the frame is put back, the collliery Peckett can propel the empties on to the weighbridge road and collect the outgoing loadeds which it has marshalled previously from the washery and put over the weighbridge, all off stage (though I represent this activity sometimes with the Peckett appearing from under the road bridge with a few wagons, empties or loaded, waiting a minute for the NCB shunter to set the road, and disappearing back whence it came...).

 

As the 56xx has only just arrived with the empties and the guard is still putting the frame back to lock the train in, 8497, having finished it's perishable goods shunting and in the process of running around to couple on to the front of it's train, dep 15.30 for Bridgend Goods, is held at the starter.  As soon as the guard finishes with the frame, the dummy at the foot of the starter can be cleared to allow it to complete it's running around move, and back on to it's train in the loop.

 

 

 

A while later, and the situation is now reversed.  The perishables has been examined, a brake continuity test carried out, and now has the road at the loop starter, right away Blackmill.  The 56xx off the coal empties has detached from it's train and run forward on to the platform road, and is now held in it's turn at the platform road starter, before collecting the van.  It will bring the van in to the platform road and take water before running around the van.  While all this is going on, the Peckett will bring the loaded into the exchange loop, cut off, and retire to it's shed road out of the way for the 56xx to propel the van on to the rear of the outgoing train.  It will then set back into the platform road and run down to the ground frame to attach to the front of it's train, and, after a period allowed for the guard to examine and give the load to the driver, who knows it by heart having done this many times before, at which point the ground frame is again used to release the train from the exchange loop, and the exchange loop starter used to authorise it's occupation of the section. 

 

Somebody has left a 12 foot high container of acrylic matt varnish in the open yard to the left of the factory siding; the barcode is a bit of a mystery to the mid 50s people 4mm people who are already wondering where the paint came from and what 'acrylic' means.  The colliery Peckett can be seen in the background on it's shed road waiting to spring into action at a second's notice, or perhaps the the crew are in the cabing having a cuppa and a Woodbine.  They are usually prompted into activity by the sound of the BR loco's whistle to the guard when he's given the 'tip' from his van, and will stroll out at a pace consistent with not arriving at the bottom end of the exchange loop before the frame has been put back.  The performance with the weighbridge is repeated and the empties put under the washery hoppers for loading, then weighed again, and the Peckett will retire to it's shed again ready for the next delivery of empties and the return clearance.

[The Johnster]

Impulse buy! 

 

In town earlier and in the antiques market window in the Royal Arcade, where there is a guy with a stall upstairs doing 2h trains, Dinkies, etc, was a good looking Hornby Railroad J94, 68010 with a hopper bunker for £43.  Come to daddy, I thought, and a few minutes later it was in my bag, the guy not wanting my change so I paid £40 for it.  Runs like a sewing maching forwards with excellent slow running capacity, and not too badly backwards but can't quite emulate the near perfect forwards running.  And, despite some comments in online reviews which I read on the bus on the way home, runs silent as well!

 

So, job for later is to do a full test run and then remove the body and see if I can get it to run as well backwards as it does forwards, and reverse the polarity which is opposite to Cwmdimbath standard.  It's previous owner has clearly looked after it well, but it has been used.  The gearing is excellent for an industrial, and top speed is around 30mph, which is very acceptable.  A bit of detail to do on the body, but the basics are there already, all it needs is a new smokebox dart to replace the moulded one and some rear lamp brackets, and then a repaint into an NCB livery, probably plain mid green, perhaps with yellow buffer beams in which case I'll paint the rods yellow as well, if not I'll paint them red.  Cab interior light cream,  controls picked out and a crew, oil can on the running plate, fireman's bike on the front, that sort of thing.  It will then take up duties at the colliery alongside Forest No.1.  There is some talk of a new coke oven plant down the valley from the pit, and this will need coking coal brought in as the local product is steam coal, so there might will be work for both locos in future.

 

It's not apparently as good as the DJ or EFE loco according to the reviews, but it's pretty good all the same, and captures the hulking brutality of an 18 1/2" Hunslet well enough.  I might give it a name; had it not had the hopper bunker I'd have probably gone for 'Pamela', the Maesteg loco preserved in an incorrect BR livery as a J94 at the Garw Valley Railway's base at Pontycwmmer, which would have meant a lined blue livery for the loco in Maesteg condition, not that they stayed clean enough to see it for very long...  Some of the reviews criticise the chimney, but I can't see anything glaringly wrong with it; all the same, a retrofit turned brass one won't do any harm.

[mike morley]

This might interest you.

https://www.rtmodels.co.uk/rt_models_023.htm

I think doing something about the fin-like smokebox door hinge is also worthwhile.

 

[The Johnster]

Good link, mike, tx.  I'm thinking a replacement smokebox door might be the way to go, which would hopefully deal with the hinge issue and save me making a mess of removing the BR number plate moulding as well.  Early days yet, and I still haven't  taken the body off and given the loco a proper test run, but I am not expecting any problems with this.  I'll drop the keeper plate off to check for crud in the axle channels which might be the reason she's a bit stoppystarty in reverse at very low speed.  She has certainly triggered memories of these engines in the South Wales coalfield during the late 60s and early 70s; I wonder if this is because I was often up mountainsides looking down on them from a very similar viewpoint to the operating position.

[The Johnster]

I think the dome needs a bit of improving as well, and retrofit injectors will make a big difference, so the RT stuff will be very useful.

 

It's an odd little thing, isn't it, and looks as if a certain ex-Dapol personage had a hand in the design of the mech.  I had a bit of an adventure finding out how it all comes apart, but we got there in the end, well, part of the way there anyway.  I've been unable to sort the polarity out yet, as there are complications.  I did find out how to remove the motor, a nice looking open frame that reminds me of Anchoridges from back in the day, but turning it around makes no difference to the polarity.  This is where the fog descends, because according to Adrian, the bloke I bought it off, it is DCC fitted, fitted not ready. 

 

Now, I do not know much about DCC.  I'm aware of what it does and, as a generalistion, how it does it, but the nuts and bolts are a foriegn country to me.  The chip is, I'm assuming, contained in a mass of wiring enclosed in some tape in the area ahead of the motor in a space in the chassis block which seems to be provided for it, and I'm a bit wary of pulling all this stuff apart tbh.  I think what is happening is that there is a chip in there and it has been programmed to run with this polarity, or in this apparent direction if that's not exactly how DCC changes the direction of travel.  If this is the case, I don't have a DCC controller or any means that I am aware of of reprogramming the chip.

 

Taking the ballast weight off the top of the block has improved running in reverse, and the loco is performing very well now in both directions.  I'm inclined to leave matters as they are for now.  I've started the repaint, first coat in a light green/khaki colour, painting the wheels to match and the coupling rods red.  I've cut the shedcode plate off fairly neatly but not yet attacked the smokebox number plate.  IIRC Little Planet do etched works plates, and for some reason I fancy 'Silurian' as the name (there's something Trilobite-like about the hopper bunker and squat beastie look of the loco), available as the plate for an ECML pacific.  I'll reglaze the cab windows with Glue'n'Glaze.

 

So, a bit of ordering; the RT stuff, a Modelu industrial crew and a few bits and pieces, and Hunslet works plates.

[5BarVT]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

This is where the fog descends, because according to Adrian, the bloke I bought it off, it is DCC fitted, fitted not ready. 

 

Now, I do not know much about DCC.  I'm aware of what it does and, as a generalistion, how it does it, but the nuts and bolts are a foriegn country to me.  The chip is, I'm assuming, contained in a mass of wiring enclosed in some tape in the area ahead of the motor in a space in the chassis block which seems to be provided for it, and I'm a bit wary of pulling all this stuff apart tbh.  I think what is happening is that there is a chip in there and it has been programmed to run with this polarity, or in this apparent direction if that's not exactly how DCC changes the direction of travel.  If this is the case, I don't have a DCC controller or any means that I am aware of of reprogramming the chip.

Do you want to post a photo of the innards.  I know it will be a mass of wires, but we may be able to confirm which wires are pick up, which are motor and which are superfluous.

As I write, it has just occurred to me, swapping the pickup connections on a DCC fitted loco won’t change the direction of travel. You would need to swap the motor wires (or tell the chip to alter the direction, which isn’t an option for you).

Paul.

[The Johnster]

I should be able to swap the wires at the motor terminals; as yet I haven’t worked out how to even get at them where they come off the pickups.  The pickups must be mounted on some sort of insulated piece, but it’s hidden from view somewhere behind the running plate which is integral with the chassis block, as opposed to the ‘normal’ position on the keeper plate, and I can’t see how to get at them.  Not sure that swapping the wire at the motor terms will affect polarity either; this is where my comprehensive lack of understanding of matters DCC comes into play!

 

It looks as if someone has chipped the loco for DCC but as it seems not to have been originally built ‘DCC ready’ there is no blanking plate into which the chip plugs, or at any rate not one that I can see.  The chip, enclosed in tape, and it’s associated wiring and connections, sit ahead of the motor, where there is a sort of well which accommodates them.  In reality this is a neater and less amateur looking job than is suggested by my description.  
 

In the cold light of day it looks straightforward enough and probably is; the two black wires that come up through the cab floor and run forward to the loom are the feed wires from the pickup,  and, if they were soldered to the motor terms, would feed current directly to the motor old skool style.  I can disconnect these from the wiring loom, and the motor feeds from the loom/chip, and all will be well, won’t it?

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by The Johnster

[Nick C]

Looks like the yellow and grey wires go to the motor, and the two black ones to the pickups. If you don't want the DCC chip, they're all you need. Unpick the black tape, cut and strip the ends, and connect yellow to black, grey to the other black, and test - if it goes the wrong way, swap. Once you're happy, solder them and re-tape.

[The Johnster]

Ok, now I've cut the chip out of the system and soldered the feed wires (two pairs of these from front and rear pickups, junctioned to red and black feed wires originally to chip, now to motor terms) to the motor, a 50% chance of getting it right first time.  Got it right first time, and the chassis test runs perfectly.  Second coat of paint is on, and I'm having a cuppa while it goes off before touching up and finishing off.  NCB initials will be pinched from an old BR loco and coach HMRS sheet, RESTAURANT CAR and BUFFET CAR.  Coat of varnish and she'll be ready for her photo!

 

The chip is still wrapped in it's tape protection, and I've got no idea what sort it is...  happy Johnster, though, needed cheering up after the 3100 chassis disaster and wallet battering session yesterday, nice little colliery shunting engine for £40!

[Northmoor]

If youre' planning on doing several NCB locos Johnster, you might consider a sheet sufficient to do six locos for £4.50:

https://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=2198

Usual disclaimer, etc.

[The Johnster]

Useful info, Northster!  I’m thinking about a new NCB identity for Forest no.1 as well.  In the event the NCB initials came from an old Ratio Toad kit, couldn’t find the HMRS  and need new anyway.  A hopper bunker Hunslet is a bit new and big for Cwmdimbath colliery, which is one of the reasons I’m thinking about offstage coke ovens or something to provide work for it.  If the traffic appears at the top of the valley like the coal, it would need two more ‘full length’ fy roads, one for the mts and one for the lds, like the coal traffic, or I need to devise a wagon emptying and refilling system.  Then the Hunslet could work the coke ovens and the Peckett could manage the colliery. 
 

Anyway, here’s the state of play for now.  The new Hunslet (it will be a Hunslet because I’ve ordered Hunslet works plates for it) stands over on the old NCB loco shed spur with an empty steel 16tonner waiting for the first mts of the day, which will be placed on the exchange road by the BR loco.  When the BR loco has removed the van, the Hunslet will propel the mts down to the offstage colliery, and eventually bring the lds up before retiring out of the way to the spur again.  
 

Even in 1958, the end of Cwmdimbath’s period, this loco is going to be pretty new, so I will go easy on the weathering.  Just noticed one of the photos is upside down; not sure how that happened, I was the ususl way up when I took it!
 

 

[The Johnster]

NCB lettering replaced by better quality xfers from Railtech and loco given the number 5.  As it shares duties with Forest no.1, the fate of 2,3, and 4 remains a mystery...

 

There may be even bigger changes in the offing.  I've been given permission to extend the fy further along the wall, in conjunction with more clothes storage for The Squeeze that will act as the support for it's baseboard, and this would allow space currently occupied by the present fy to be used for a colliery or at least a part of one, with open plain running line in front of it.  Early days yet for this plan, and the possible suggestion of coke ovens to the  south of the colliery as well, but it would enable shunting operations concerning the washery and a weighbridge.  The current overbridge scenic break would move south towards the new fy, and scenery would be possible over a further 5 feet of layout.

 

[The Johnster]

Goodies delivered by Royal Mail and APC today; RM posted a DAPR 3D print kit colliery headgear set, and APC turned up trumps with an eBay Baccy Ivatt 4MT, which is to donate it's chassis and wheels to the 31xx project, currently stalled with incessant shorts on my rebuilt Airfix chassis.

 

The Pithhead is in white plastic, and there are no instructions, only a photo from a completed kit to work from.  Come on, Johnster, your grand and great grand parents were miners, it's in the blood, you can do this, shouldn't be a problem.  I actually ordered this before the plan to include the colliery on the layout was formed, as a backdrop detail, but of course it will now have a more prominent role, and I will assemble it asap to ensure that none of the bits make a break for the border!  The colliery project will incorporate this, and at least a suggestion of the baths, locker room, lamproom, battery room, and canteen.  The washery is pretty much a given seeing as it will be the focal point of railway operations, but I want to include a weighbridge as well; the screens will occupy any real estate left empty after that is done, and there probably needs to be a pumphouse and ventilation fan, or at least buildings purporting to house them, as well.

 

Not to worry about it yet, we need to get the new fy built and land cleared on the existing fy board for the colliery, which will involve a ground frame operated access/exit point for BR loco release.

[The Johnster]

The new fiddle yard boards are in rought trial position, but will need trimming to fit properly, a job for Sunday daytime as I'm off on an adventure to the Barry Exhibition tomoz, and it's too late now to be making power tool noises with the jig saw.  They are skipraids, sides of what was once an oak veneered MDF cabinet, not ideal but the price was right.  They are about 42"x 18", and this means that the effective total extension of the layout is just over the 42" mark, but there is a good bit of width on what will be the colliery board. so I'll be able to cut loose a bit with the scenics.  The actual fiddle yard extension is wide enough to have a colliery 'south end' headshunt, and my rotational system of permanent loaded and permanent empty mineral rakes can be incorported into the new regime.  It can also act as an overrun for the weighbridge; the plan here is to draw or propel  trains to be tared at a dead slow speed giving time for the Pooley operator to do his stuff.  Actual track layout for the colliery is not at all planned yet, and may be allowed to develop naturally with the assistance of some boxes representing buildings to see what works from the shunting pov., visually, and what is the best use of the space.

 

The headgear is finished, painted, and rusted up a bit, and is beginning to look the part.  My memory of these contraptions in the 50s and 60s was that they were always painted black, but red oxide seems to have been the norm in later years; mine is black and a bit rusty.  I had the Coopercraft weighbridge in mind for this project, but have run into the problem that it is Coopercraft, and will have to scratch build or modify something else.

 

Sitting here with my cuppa reviewing the thought process that led to this project.  This time last week I had ordered the headframe kit from eBay, with the idea that it would be nice think to have and would look good in the background, establishing that there was an off stage colliery just south of the road overbridge.  Then, in town last Saturday, I came across the J94, and having two colliery locomotives led the mortal remains of my brain to consider how to provide enough work for both of them.  Then The Squeeze, when I showed her the eBay picture of the headgear, asked if I was going to make a colliery (she's Polish, and her dad is a Silesian miner).  'No room for one', says I, to which she responded 'there's a bit of wall between the layout and where the wardrobe door opens, you can put it there'.  This one is very definitely a keeper.  'There'll be less room for you to get to the wardrobe', I pointed out, and she coame back with' I'm not that fat, I'll manage'.  Love that woman...

 

No going back after that, and I quickly came to the conclusion that the new space would be better used as a new fiddle yard and the existing fy should be redeveloped as the colliery.  It's a slightly odd shape, and the throat part of the fy will have to be in front of a scenic divider that is angled away from the viewing side, possibly creating an impression that the colliery curves eastwards in to the side valley leading towards Clydach Vale on the other side of the mountain.  The whole site can be pretty claustrophobic, with the mountains pressing in on all sides, which is a reflection of the real Dimbath valley and the Nant Lechyd stream.  It would be good to incorporate some gradients, but the circulatory nature of the mineral rake workings mitigates against this.  From the station viewpoint, the running line should drop away down the valley and the colliery branch should climb away up the mountainside to the east of the valley and around the mountain spur into the side valley.  As things are, I'll move the running line scenic break bridge, Heol Pontdimbws, to the entrance to the new fy and evoke the presence of a severe drop just south of it with an 'all up goods and mineral trains must stop here to pin down brakes' notice, and perhaps a brakeman's cabin.

[The Johnster]

Headgear photos

[The Johnster]

Taken at night with the lens cap on. Don’t know what went wrong there, I’ll try again later. 

[MrWolf]

I thought it was a close up shot of the face workings.... 

[The Johnster]

It might as well be!

[The Johnster]

An important part of the Colliery plan has been done this afternoon, with the aid of The Squeeze holding the felt tip pen.  The branch running line must be relaid and taken from the current scenic break locus around about 50 degrees of curve in order to approach the new fy board at a suitable angle after a reverse curve, and while I want as much space as is practicable for the colliery corner, which I'll come back to in a minute, I need to keep a close eye on the radius of the running line to allow as large a radius as possible in the interests of both appearance and good running.  Two guidance marker curves in green felt tip have been set at roughly 36" and 30" radii, and the ability they give to visualise the use of the space shows that the track needs be laid to be laid to 30".   I'll be purchasing some curve setters on Wednesday as well...

 

The colliery corner is not a simple corner, but a complex shape made up of the angled wall of that end of the bay window, an inglenook, and the chimney breast.  One at least of the colliery roads needs to run offstage into the fy, but I can get away with tighter curves and even the larger radius setrack if absolutly neccessary.  I am considering the use of setrack no.3 Y turnouts for the fy in the interests of economy and space saving, but it would mean rather a lot of reverse curves which I want to avoid as much as possible.  Wednesday is pension day, and the project is on hold until then because I will be undertaking the two-bus schlel crosstown to Lord & Butlers' to buy half a dozen lengths of code 100 streamline, which should be sufficient, and some turnouts, but not all of them as I will wait until the track is half laid to be sure which additional turnouts are needed. 

 

I'm increasingly sold on the idea of Walthers' Cornerstone 'New River' as the main colliery building complex, not cheap but cromulent and a good use of space.  I can raise the washery (and the whole complex if neccessary) a little if the side screen clearance is an issue (Americans seem to refer to what we describe as a washery as a tippler), and there needs to be an impressiong of the pit occupying a site sloping upwards from the railway and the valley floor, which 'New River' suits admirably, though with probably a good bit of bashing, cut'n'shut, and 'Johnsterification'.  So a job for later tonight or early next week will be to make a full size card template of the footprint of this kit to aid positioning and ensure it doesn't end up where the washery feed roads will be a problem.  The actual track layout of the colliery is as yet undecided as I will need to be flexible in terms of what goes where and how the shunting will actually be carried out, another reason for not buying all the turnouts at once.  There will be at least two through washery roads.

 

A question for the knowledgeable, and one I should know the answer to and think I do but need reassurance... about weighbridge working.  My memory of working pits long ago when I did not pay as much attention as I should have is that they were usually situated between the washery roads and the exchange, and that rafts of emtpy or loaded wagons were pushed or pulled over them at very low speed, but I'm wondering if this is right and if, in fact, the wagons were stopped on the weighbridges for individual weighing; I may be thinking of MGR working.  The correct procedure may have some impact on my timetable!

 

The timetable is probably going to be impacted anyway, as there will be a lot more operation centred on the colliery (haven't named it yet, how about 'Forest Pit') and I may have to cut some of the passenger workings.  There may be a workman's halt outside the pit as well, as it's a bit of a walk from the main passenger station especially if the downcast is in the far corner, though the trains will still have to come up to the terminus to run around.  I may reinstate the night shift as well, all this NCB investment has to be paid for, but I can't see the branch's signalboxes being open overnight; TTBOMK Blackmill and Brynmenyn didn't do night shifts, though Ogmore Jc and the rest of the Tondu complext worked  24/6 (not Sundays).

 

Mines in the UK must, as a legal requirement, have at least two means of entry and exit for obvious safety reasons, and the normal situation is to have separate downcast and upcast shafts for ventilation purposes, a vital consideration.  But I don't want to lay out another £30 for another DAPR headgear kit (though I'm open to persuation). and might go with the excuse that the downcast is incorporated in the 'New River' complex but the sheaves are enclosed and out of sight, while the DAPR pithead is the upshaft.  The usual arrangement was that the downcast shaft was the main one in terms of the (often double decker) cage for taking men and empty drams down, and men and full drams up; a constant supply of full drams and the efficience with which they could be brought to the surface was one of the key factors in a pit's productivity and output.  The other, upcast, shaft, is used to take down the likes of pitprops, hay for the ponies, equipment in general, and anything else that needs to go down or come up, without interuppting the flow of coal from the main shaft.  It can also be used as an overflow to the main shaft if needed. 

 

There will have to be a narrow gauge dram network, and some drams to pose on it, but I can't see making this operational.  The drams were pushed around be hand or sent off by gravity on their own cogniscance, which was exactly as rough and ready as it sounds, and scarier than in Indiana Jones and the Temple Of Doom (aa bom shavai, aa bom shavai), and, sadly, locomotives were not used, even petrol tractors, IIRC; no chance of a quarry Hunslet!  Electric locmotives were used underground of course where there weren't pit ponies or conveyor belts, but we won't be modelling that...  There was a surface testing and driver training track for the undergound locos at the back of Nantgarw, visible from the A470 dual carriageway when it was built, with ridiculouts gradients and curves and deliberate bad tracklaying, great fun as a spectator sport!

 

I'm getting impatient to crack on with this now, and must be disciplined.  Pension day not being until Wednesday will prevent me buying anything until then, but the temptation to rip track up and see how the turnouts and new curve will work in practice is strong.  I must and will resist, as I will not be able to operate the layout at all if I do this, we need to retain the existing fy and pretend colliery for now and, while the colliery is less urgent, the fy needs to be replaced completely on the new board and the plain line section of branch put in in one session to enable running to continue.  Once that's done, I can start laying new track in the colliery with the aid of my 'New River' footprint template and some card cutout turnouts.  Patience, Johnster, patience!

[Nick C]

I've got a set of tracksettas you're welcome to borrow if you want, not the full set but includes the ones around 36"

[The Johnster]

I actually have a fair idea of exactly which turnouts to buy, having made some templates out of cardboard and laid them out, showing that the  proposed scenic break needs to move stationwards about 8 inches.  This will mean an odd viewing of the colliery, sort of around a corner, which I think has the potential to be quite effective at drawing attention away from the scenic break and look as though it continues further into the southerly distance down the valley towards Glynogwr, perhaps to a suggestion of coke ovens; no, stop that now, Johnster, you haven't got storage room for another two rakes of wagons!  The rest of this evening will be devoted to researching anglepoise led lamps to illuminate the extension.  I've also moved the stock storage shelf unit so that I won't have to reach across the colliery to access it; some attention needs to be paid to lighting for this as well.

[The Johnster]

8 minutes ago, Nick C said:

I've got a set of tracksettas you're welcome to borrow if you want, not the full set but includes the ones around 36"

Thanks Nick.  I'm looking for the 30" which may be smaller than you have, and small enough for me to make a cardboard former that will do the job 'close enough for jazz'; I may need a little wobble room as opposed to absolute precision...

[Budgie]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Mines in the UK must, as a legal requirement, have at least two means of entry and exit for obvious safety reasons, and the normal situation is to have separate downcast and upcast shafts for ventilation purposes, a vital consideration.  But I don't want to lay out another £30 for another DAPR headgear kit

Can't you put the second headgear on the scenic backdrop?