Cabside red dot on Britannia

[millerhillboy]

As the title suggests,I'm currently doing an n gauge 70018 flying dutchman, and note that she appears to have had a red circle underneath her number on the cabside.

Can anyone elaborate on this for me, I've never seen this before.

[Phil Bullock]

As the title suggests,I'm currently doing an n gauge 70018 flying dutchman, and note that she appears to have had a red circle underneath her number on the cabside.

Can anyone elaborate on this for me, I've never seen this before.

 

Hi there

 

As visible on this shot....

 

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=70018+flying+dutchman&view=detailv2&&id=F3A6132D0FB069FD45DA273695416082132F8994&selectedIndex=14&ccid=6oZKaWHe&simid=608015427342502780&thid=OIP.Mea864a6961deb097f1a2cd8ecd8880b5o0&ajaxhist=0

 

She was a WR loco and that is the WR route restriction system - othe red engines were Castles,  Kings were double Red

 

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Railway_Power_and_Weight_Classification for more info

 

Phil

[millerhillboy]

Thanks, makes sense of course with the WR connection.

[Phil Bullock]

Post 3 as originally posted:

 

Thanks Phil, that's useful but since posting previously I've found this information

 

"The red circle in the photo of 70019 Lightning shows the position of the encased coil spring between the first and second drivers. This modification was carried out on all 'Britannias' after No 70010 suffered a lock-up in reverse gear in 1952."

 

From

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page90.htm

 

Hmm....

 

I think you will find what David refers to is the red circle he has marked on the photo between the driving wheels 0f 70019 as you allude to - not the red cab side circle!

 

According to his caption all the Brits had that mod - but I challenge you to find a red circle on the cab side of any other than a WR loco....hee hee

 

Kind regards

 

Phil

[The Johnster]

It was applied to all WR locos including BR standards and WDs allocated to the region, and I presume to Pontypool Road's LMS Stanier 8Fs as well but I cannot state that definitively, and to the pre-blue liveried diesels.  A GWR system which BR (W) inherited, it was, from the lightest axle loads up:-

 

'Uncoloured'............... up to 14 tons, e.g Dean Goods, 14xx.  

 

Yellow......................... 14-16 tons (and what do you get?), e.g 45xx. 54/64/74xxx, 43xx.

 

Blue............................ 16-17 tons, e.g. 57xx, Manor, BR Std 4MT 4-6-0.

 

Red............................ 17-20 tons, e.g Hall, 56xx, 5100, Castle, 28xx, Britannia.

 

Double Red (2 red spots side by side on cab side) ..... King. 47xx is Red but restricted to Paddington-Plymouh via Westbury or Bristol.

 

There would be a GWR power classification code in black inside the spot, these were A to D in ascending order with 'unclassified' for 'sub A' locos such as 14xx, and 'special' for Kings and 47xx.  This was also applied to BR standard locos and WD's allocated to WR.  AFAIK this did not apply to diesels which were power banded into 'Types' at the time of the Modernisation Plan.  BR awarded power classifications to ex GWR locos, but they were pretty much ignored on the WR; describe a Hall to it's driver as a 5MT and he'd look at you blankly.  To him it was Red D, and could pull a Red D train, which was all he needed to know

 

The principle was that all the locomotives could haul all the trains (with of course the exception of unfitted such as 67xx or ROD) if needed, and there was no distinction between 'P', 'F', or 'MT'.  The traffic department told the loco department that they wanted a Blue C loco to haul a train, and the shed provided one.  Obviously, in practice, a suitable loco would be sent out, a Castle for a fast passenger, 5101 for a local, 28xx for a long haul coal train or whatever, but the system could be seen in operation on summer Saturdays in the West Country when anything that could turn a wheel was used; often the term 'pressed into service' is brought into play by railway journalists and authors, but used is a better term; if a loco had a vacuum brake and sufficient power, the WR would happily put it on a 12 coach express.  WR working timetables are full of lists of timings and loads for every engine over each section, so if a 57xx was working a Castle turn, a specified amount of extra time was allowed in each section.  Compared to most railways, the GW had an almost complete stud of vacuum braked locos, with only the 67xx steam reverse shunters (the only locos Swindon ever built specifically for shunting), the RODs, and some of the absorbed Welsh 0-6-2 tanks not being provided with it.  There must have been 57xx that worked their entire lives shunting yards and never had a use for the hoses dangling at the ends, but they were there anyway!

 

As an example, the 56xx were built to replace time served 0-6-2T locos in South Wales, and were closely based on the Rhymney Railway 'R' class which was considered a very successful example of the type; in fact there is an argument for regarding the 56xx as a Rhymney R made of Swindon standard parts.  The Rhymney engine was a variant of 3 'standard' classes with interchangeble parts, 'M' with 4'1" drivers for mineral, 'R' with 4'7" for general freight work (mostly mineral in practice), and 'P' with 5'3", which was plenty fast enough for South Wales passenger work.  Only the 'P' had automatic brakes, originally the Rhymney's standard Westinghouse air but converted to vacuum by the GW.  

 

So, in building what was a GWR version of an unfitted general goods loco, the GW in accordance with the principle that all the locos must be able to work all the trains fitted it with a vacuum brake, and it rapidly became the archetypical valleys workhorse as at home on a heavy coal train as a Cardiff-Merthyr rush hour passenger.  Imagine the Southern using it's Z class 0-8-0 tanks for inner London suburban work; the engine would have accelerated like a rocket, easily kept up with the electrics, and been ideal for the job up to about 40mph, but it probably never occurred to them to try it; the Z was not a loco designed GW style to work all the trains because the Southern didn't think like that, it was intended for hump shunting and banking and that was that.  The 56xx were so associated with passenger work that Swindon gave them full lined out passenger livery after 1956.

 

When 'Evening Star' was allocated new to Canton, the shed used her on the crack 'Red Dragon' turn, on which 80mph was expected with 14 on, presumably because she was painted like a passenger engine and looked a bit like a Brit; nobody considered that her 5' wheels were an issue.  And they weren't...

 

Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, like you do when you get to my age.  Hope some of it was of use to you millerhillboy, and good luck with the Flying Dustbin.

[Phil Bullock]

And early blue liveried diesels too!

 

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=D857&view=detailv2&&id=1A9FE1E012011F161163DAF2200ED07A259535E0&selectedIndex=1&ccid=llRg4oUG&simid=608048988217544302&thid=OIP.M965460e285066f196147ec2411c799d4o0&ajaxhist=0

 

Did the system change over the years? 28xx and 51xx - always thought they were blue...

 

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=2857&view=detailv2&id=CE79D10DCAD42709909469DB91356F90D0705CF2&selectedindex=17&ccid=zEXWQQ8P&simid=608016629932165127&thid=OIP.Mcc45d6410f0f328be2348495cae64138o0&mode=overlay&first=1

 

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=5164+2-6-2t&view=detailv2&&id=F43A1FD06713787DD9510C7FED31EA84046FEB70&selectedIndex=8&ccid=YsSP7U6e&simid=608055280348430469&thid=OIP.M62c48fed4e9e6f1b4196902d4ed180f2o0&ajaxhist=0

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[The Stationmaster]

And early blue liveried diesels too!

 

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=D857&view=detailv2&&id=1A9FE1E012011F161163DAF2200ED07A259535E0&selectedIndex=1&ccid=llRg4oUG&simid=608048988217544302&thid=OIP.M965460e285066f196147ec2411c799d4o0&ajaxhist=0

 

Did the system change over the years? 28xx and 51xx - always thought they were blue...

 

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=2857&view=detailv2&id=CE79D10DCAD42709909469DB91356F90D0705CF2&selectedindex=17&ccid=zEXWQQ8P&simid=608016629932165127&thid=OIP.Mcc45d6410f0f328be2348495cae64138o0&mode=overlay&first=1

 

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=5164+2-6-2t&view=detailv2&&id=F43A1FD06713787DD9510C7FED31EA84046FEB70&selectedIndex=8&ccid=YsSP7U6e&simid=608055280348430469&thid=OIP.M62c48fed4e9e6f1b4196902d4ed180f2o0&ajaxhist=0

 

Cheers

 

Phil

 

The only engines which were re-classified were the 5700/8750 panniers which were orginally Blue but were altered to Yellow postwar (post nationalisation I think - without checking the date) on account of low hammer blow.

 

Alas a number of classes listed in the Johnster's post are show incorrectly.  The 43XX were RA Blue although the 93XX series were RA Red, most of the large prairies were RA Blue although the 3100 variant were RA Red.  The Blue category was over 16 tons to 17 tons 12 cwt while the Red category was everything above 17tons 12 cwt except the 'Kings' which were allocated Double Red category due to their (original) maximum axleload of 22tons 10cwt  (reckoned in their final state to be rather more!).  The 28XX were indeed RA Blue as Phil has noted.  There were also what were know as Dotted Red and Dotted Blue routes over which certain exceptions could be made from the normal restrictions - basically RA Red engines were restricted to a maximum speed of 20 mph on Dotted Red routes whilst A Blue engines were restricted to a maximum speed of 25 mph on Dotted Blue routes.

 

Stanier 2-8-0 8Fs were technically RA Blue but were subject to different restrictions depending on whether or not they had the 'Fast Goods' star on the cab sidesheet; I can't recall seeing an RA disc on any of them when they came back to the Western in later years and don't know if Swindon had applied one originally when they were built although they certainly operated quite widely on the GWR during the war before they finally all went to the LMS.  Standard 9Fs were also RA Blue but were subject to the same siding restrictions as 38XX & 47XX on Red routes, I think I've related previously how 92220 actually finished up working the Up 'Red Dragon' for the first time following the failure on shed of the booked engine.

 

As far as allocating engines to trains is concerned the system was as follows -

 

Train work would be diagrammed to various depots plus they would, in effect, be given a paper allocation against specials etc.  The actual allocation of engines a depot then received was based on its diagrammed workload plus an allowance for maintenance, boiler washouts, repairs arising locally and so on with any shortfalls being addressed by loan of engines from other shed in their motive power area (the principal shed always carrying more engines than it would need in order to allow some flexibility in meeting special traffic and maintenance needs.

 

The cover for any particular train would be diagrammed on the basis of providing an engine of suitable power capable of meeting the timings with the booked load.  While the diagramming offices must have undoubtedly kept in mind the matter of route availability their principal concern (within that constraint) would have been to diagram a type which had sufficient power to run the booked load to time.  In reality if a depot could not allocate the diagrammed type of engine then they either had to beg, borrow or steal one or substitute a less powerful type which would lose time with the booked load (if the load could not be reduced) or possibly maybe even provide an assistant engine.  The latter was of course particularly important on sections with heavy gradients.

 

The GWR introduced a standardised system of tonnage based loads for passenger trains in 1927 and it makes interesting reading - for example on the virtually level stretch between Paddington and Reading a fascinating mixture of classes were allowed the 420 ton maximum load and accordingly expected to keep time with it - so 'not just things like 'Castles', 'Stars' and 'Saints' but 31XX prairie tanks, County tanks, 'Counties' and Belpaire firebox 'Bulldogs' while 'Cities', 'Atbaras' and 'Dukes' were limited to 392 tons.  But in sharp contrast where the gradients were tough the picture changed completely - for example between Taunton and Whiteball only 'Castles' and 'Stars' were allowed 392 tons with the 'Saints', 43XX and 31XX prairie effectively one coach less at 364 tons while the belpaire 'Bulldogs' were limited to 308 tons; rather amusingly exactly the same loads applied in the Down direction on the Henley branch while the Windsor branch was similar although there in the Down direction 'Bulldogs' were limited to 208 tons.

 

So in simple terms a shed was allocated its diagrams and then it was allocated what were considered to be sufficient engines of the necessary types to cover those diagrams. 

[The Johnster]

The only engines which were re-classified were the 5700/8750 panniers which were orginally Blue but were altered to Yellow postwar (post nationalisation I think - without checking the date) on account of low hammer blow.

 

Alas a number of classes listed in the Johnster's post are show incorrectly.  The 43XX were RA Blue although the 93XX series were RA Red, most of the large prairies were RA Blue although the 3100 variant were RA Red.  The Blue category was over 16 tons to 17 tons 12 cwt while the Red category was everything above 17tons 12 cwt except the 'Kings' which were allocated Double Red category due to their (original) maximum axleload of 22tons 10cwt  (reckoned in their final state to be rather more!).  The 28XX were indeed RA Blue as Phil has noted.  There were also what were know as Dotted Red and Dotted Blue routes over which certain exceptions could be made from the normal restrictions - basically RA Red engines were restricted to a maximum speed of 20 mph on Dotted Red routes whilst A Blue engines were restricted to a maximum speed of 25 mph on Dotted Blue routes.

 

Stanier 2-8-0 8Fs were technically RA Blue but were subject to different restrictions depending on whether or not they had the 'Fast Goods' star on the cab sidesheet; I can't recall seeing an RA disc on any of them when they came back to the Western in later years and don't know if Swindon had applied one originally when they were built although they certainly operated quite widely on the GWR during the war before they finally all went to the LMS.  Standard 9Fs were also RA Blue but were subject to the same siding restrictions as 38XX & 47XX on Red routes, I think I've related previously how 92220 actually finished up working the Up 'Red Dragon' for the first time following the failure on shed of the booked engine.

 

As far as allocating engines to trains is concerned the system was as follows -

 

Train work would be diagrammed to various depots plus they would, in effect, be given a paper allocation against specials etc.  The actual allocation of engines a depot then received was based on its diagrammed workload plus an allowance for maintenance, boiler washouts, repairs arising locally and so on with any shortfalls being addressed by loan of engines from other shed in their motive power area (the principal shed always carrying more engines than it would need in order to allow some flexibility in meeting special traffic and maintenance needs.

 

The cover for any particular train would be diagrammed on the basis of providing an engine of suitable power capable of meeting the timings with the booked load.  While the diagramming offices must have undoubtedly kept in mind the matter of route availability their principal concern (within that constraint) would have been to diagram a type which had sufficient power to run the booked load to time.  In reality if a depot could not allocate the diagrammed type of engine then they either had to beg, borrow or steal one or substitute a less powerful type which would lose time with the booked load (if the load could not be reduced) or possibly maybe even provide an assistant engine.  The latter was of course particularly important on sections with heavy gradients.

 

The GWR introduced a standardised system of tonnage based loads for passenger trains in 1927 and it makes interesting reading - for example on the virtually level stretch between Paddington and Reading a fascinating mixture of classes were allowed the 420 ton maximum load and accordingly expected to keep time with it - so 'not just things like 'Castles', 'Stars' and 'Saints' but 31XX prairie tanks, County tanks, 'Counties' and Belpaire firebox 'Bulldogs' while 'Cities', 'Atbaras' and 'Dukes' were limited to 392 tons.  But in sharp contrast where the gradients were tough the picture changed completely - for example between Taunton and Whiteball only 'Castles' and 'Stars' were allowed 392 tons with the 'Saints', 43XX and 31XX prairie effectively one coach less at 364 tons while the belpaire 'Bulldogs' were limited to 308 tons; rather amusingly exactly the same loads applied in the Down direction on the Henley branch while the Windsor branch was similar although there in the Down direction 'Bulldogs' were limited to 208 tons.

 

So in simple terms a shed was allocated its diagrams and then it was allocated what were considered to be sufficient engines of the necessary types to cover those diagrams. 

 

Once again The Stationmaster provides the definitive answer; thank you sir for pointing out my erroneousnessiostity (not sure that's an actual word but I just used it anyway!_).  In order to cover the duties the sheds requested allocations of suitable locos from the works on the basis of 'Red C' and so on, and didn't always get what they thought they were asking for; for instance, South Wales Cardiff Valleys division sheds in the early 50s were not at all happy with receiving brand new BR Class 3MT prairies when they wanted more 5101s; Swindon was no longer building 5101s and the approved alternative was the 3MT.  The sheds, maintenance staff, and loco crews just had to put up with it, which they did with very bad grace, especially when they sent 5101s in for overhaul and found themselves with 3MT replacements...

 

The reluctance of WR sheds to accept 7MT Britannias as replacements for 7P Castles, or 9Fs as replacement for 8F 28xx is well known and documented, and resulted in 70014 Iron Duke being palmed off on to the Southern Region despite being named in honour of a GWR broad gauge icon.  The Southern made a very successful 'go' of the engine...

 

All of the big 4 railways had some system of power and route availability classification (I think I am correct in stating that BR's RA system was based on the LNER's), and most had them imposed by having to rationalise a collection of motley and diverse pre-grouping types in 1923 into some sort of order for the benefit of shed foremen who had to allocate unfamiliar types to specified duties; this 'code letter in a spot' method was how the GW (because of the GW/WR's attitude that there was a Swindon method and a wrong method) did it and the system survived and, in practice, ignored the new BR one.  I suspect the LNER and Southern methods did as well, and as the BR system was a continuation of the LMS, originally MR, one, there they just carried on with it because it was what they were used to.  The WR was institutionally opposed to anything that originated on the Midland, even if it was actually quite a useful and well thought out system.  There is really no system of steam locomotive power classification system that adequately allows for the variety of locos it must encompass, and one is always going to end up with the sort of anomaly in which a 56xx is equivalent to a Black 5, but the MR/LMS/BR system is not a bad guide for most purposes...

 

Evening Star worked the up Red Dragon at least twice after her initial outing, and was 'stopped' by Paddington officialdom afterwards.  She managed the job without any problems and Canton drivers I have spoken to regarded her as equal to a Brit or a Castle.  Siding restrictions, delineated in the Sectional Appendices, were less to do with power and RA restrictions than they were to do with clearances, e.g. over outside cylinders, wheelbases on tight curves, or overhang of long vehicles, and often determined by running the loco very slowly into the sidings to see if it was ok.  Again, the Sectional Appendices are detailed on this subject and are almost a hobby in their own right!

 

A very happy and successful new year to you all, especially those poor sods whose lives are so empty and desolate that they are writing, or reading, such screeds as this at this time of night on a new year's....

[Andy Kirkham]

I'm always slightly surprised the famously lightweight D800s were nevertheless classified as Red; I wonder how this squares with their being used on the Ilfracombe line.

 

Likewise the Hymeks were Red but ran on lines that almost certainly never saw a Red steam loco, e.g. Minehead, Newcastle Emlyn, Bristol-Radstock-Frome.

[Phil Bullock]

80 tons on 4 axles so certainly around the 20 ton axle loading - but presumably with diesels the absence of hammer blow was a factor.....

 

Perhaps paradoxically the 1Co-Co1s at 130 tons on 8 axles average out at a little over 16 tons.....and all for 200 hp less.... 

 

Phil

[Ian Hargrave]

The appearance of "Evening Star" on The Red Dragon has always been a headline grabber.However,the use of the Riddles 9F on regular express passenger turns ....not merely holiday extras.....was instigated (shock horror) by the ER when in the late 1950's a New England 9F was rostered for the down "Heart Of Midlothian". It appears that the capabilities of the design were highly desirable especially when they showed themselves capable of speeds of 90 mph with a heavy load.I believe a worthy pundit ( CJ Allen or OS Nock ) penned an article entitled "Ninety With A Nine".This was eventually brought to a halt by officialdom from on high. But it did continue at least until Sept. 1960 when I saw the down train arrive at York with one at its head.

[roythebus]

Maybe the red spot indicates it's a Hindu female or it's switched to standby to save power??

[Mad McCann]

70018 retained her red cabside dot in 1961-2 whist operating out of Canal Shed on the Waverley Route. Gone by 1963, I think but yet to confirm this via photos.

 

Dave.

[vitalspark]

70018 retained her red cabside dot in 1961-2 whist operating out of Canal Shed on the Waverley Route. Gone by 1963, I think but yet to confirm this via photos.

 

Dave.

 

 

Definitely retained the Red dot on the cab side after transfer to LMR.

 

Pic of 70018 in 4mm.. weathered by Mad McCann himself plus genuine Kingmoor coal in the tender ..and a very nice job too Dave.

 

Dave.

 

[Silver Sidelines]

I am sure that I have linked this image before.  It is taken from the inside cover of George Behrend (1964) "Gone With Regret".  Not everyone on RMweb is convinced about its accuracy but it should give you a flavour of the route availablity as remembered by George Behrend.

 

Ray

[millerhillboy]

Definitely retained the Red dot on the cab side after transfer to LMR.

 

Pic of 70018 in 4mm.. weathered by Mad McCann himself plus genuine Kingmoor coal in the tender ..and a very nice job too Dave.

 

Dave.

 

IMG_6177_2-1.jpeg

Mines will be also be heading in the carlisle direction to the kennels in due course once complete. I'll maybe leave the coal out and get some original carlisle stuff

[Mad McCann]

There's still plenty about Craig. Been keeping me going since 1999! ;-)

[The Johnster]

The only engines which were re-classified were the 5700/8750 panniers which were orginally Blue but were altered to Yellow postwar (post nationalisation I think - without checking the date) on account of low hammer blow.

 

Alas a number of classes listed in the Johnster's post are show incorrectly.  The 43XX were RA Blue although the 93XX series were RA Red, most of the large prairies were RA Blue although the 3100 variant were RA Red.  The Blue category was over 16 tons to 17 tons 12 cwt while the Red category was everything above 17tons 12 cwt except the 'Kings' which were allocated Double Red category due to their (original) maximum axleload of 22tons 10cwt  (reckoned in their final state to be rather more!).  The 28XX were indeed RA Blue as Phil has noted.  There were also what were know as Dotted Red and Dotted Blue routes over which certain exceptions could be made from the normal restrictions - basically RA Red engines were restricted to a maximum speed of 20 mph on Dotted Red routes whilst A Blue engines were restricted to a maximum speed of 25 mph on Dotted Blue routes.

 

Stanier 2-8-0 8Fs were technically RA Blue but were subject to different restrictions depending on whether or not they had the 'Fast Goods' star on the cab sidesheet; I can't recall seeing an RA disc on any of them when they came back to the Western in later years and don't know if Swindon had applied one originally when they were built although they certainly operated quite widely on the GWR during the war before they finally all went to the LMS.  Standard 9Fs were also RA Blue but were subject to the same siding restrictions as 38XX & 47XX on Red routes, I think I've related previously how 92220 actually finished up working the Up 'Red Dragon' for the first time following the failure on shed of the booked engine.

 

As far as allocating engines to trains is concerned the system was as follows -

 

Train work would be diagrammed to various depots plus they would, in effect, be given a paper allocation against specials etc.  The actual allocation of engines a depot then received was based on its diagrammed workload plus an allowance for maintenance, boiler washouts, repairs arising locally and so on with any shortfalls being addressed by loan of engines from other shed in their motive power area (the principal shed always carrying more engines than it would need in order to allow some flexibility in meeting special traffic and maintenance needs.

 

The cover for any particular train would be diagrammed on the basis of providing an engine of suitable power capable of meeting the timings with the booked load.  While the diagramming offices must have undoubtedly kept in mind the matter of route availability their principal concern (within that constraint) would have been to diagram a type which had sufficient power to run the booked load to time.  In reality if a depot could not allocate the diagrammed type of engine then they either had to beg, borrow or steal one or substitute a less powerful type which would lose time with the booked load (if the load could not be reduced) or possibly maybe even provide an assistant engine.  The latter was of course particularly important on sections with heavy gradients.

 

The GWR introduced a standardised system of tonnage based loads for passenger trains in 1927 and it makes interesting reading - for example on the virtually level stretch between Paddington and Reading a fascinating mixture of classes were allowed the 420 ton maximum load and accordingly expected to keep time with it - so 'not just things like 'Castles', 'Stars' and 'Saints' but 31XX prairie tanks, County tanks, 'Counties' and Belpaire firebox 'Bulldogs' while 'Cities', 'Atbaras' and 'Dukes' were limited to 392 tons.  But in sharp contrast where the gradients were tough the picture changed completely - for example between Taunton and Whiteball only 'Castles' and 'Stars' were allowed 392 tons with the 'Saints', 43XX and 31XX prairie effectively one coach less at 364 tons while the belpaire 'Bulldogs' were limited to 308 tons; rather amusingly exactly the same loads applied in the Down direction on the Henley branch while the Windsor branch was similar although there in the Down direction 'Bulldogs' were limited to 208 tons.

 

So in simple terms a shed was allocated its diagrams and then it was allocated what were considered to be sufficient engines of the necessary types to cover those diagrams. 

 

Yes, several of mine were incorrect, it was late and I was rambling a bit.  Sorry.