Post War GWR Sleeper Operations / diag J12 Sleepers

[The Fatadder]

With my first Cornish Reveria formation nearing completion, its time to start researching the next formation.  For this I am thinking about the Sleeper operations, particularly now that I have found that CPL produce the sides for the J12 sleeper first.   Based upon my research looking at carriage workings and working time tables I believe there are 4 services in 1947 which ran on a weekday with a sleeper. 

The

 

00:15 Paddington to Penzance Newspaper

Siphon G, Brake Van (assume this to mean a full brake), Siphon G, Siphon G, First Sleeper, 60ft Brake Van, Slip G (no 2930 or 2978)

 

21:50 Paddington to Penzance

BTK, TK, CK, First Sleeper, CK, TK, BTK (plus a section which came off at Plymouth containing BTK, CK, TK, BTK, CK, BTK which I will not be modelling)

 

23:50 Paddington to (Plymouth) and Penzance

(Siphon G, TK, TK, First Sleeper), and for Penzance BTK, TK, TK, CK, CK, TK, BRK, Siphon G

 

Then there is the balancing move returning to the capital

20:40 Penzance (Plymouth) to Paddington

(Van, BTK, CK, First Sleeper), BTK, TK, CK, First Sleeper, First Sleeper, CK, TK, BTK, Siphon G

 

Now the problem, given that the service naturally ran through the night, I am finding it very difficult to find any photos in order to try and work out examples of the coaches used for the rest of the formation.  I have looked at Russel and Harris, does anyone know of any published photos showing either of the above workings?

 Further to this I would like to confirm if there would have  been roof boards carried, I assume the "Night Reveria" name is a more recent development? 

 

As for the stock, I know of the aforementioned J12 Sleeper First.  Would these have made up the majority of the post war sleeper fleet? (I assume the reason for no sleeper thirds is that they had not been renovated post WW2)

I have seen the drawing and photos in Russel, with the turned in ends.  Is this the same basic body as the Centenarys / Super Saloons, meaning that a conversion of the Airfix Centenary would be possible? 

I am looking at the CPL etches, however its not clear what floor / roof is required to finish. 

[M.I.B]

Were the J12s not 12 wheelers, meaningthat a simple "brass sides onto RTR" will not be a stright job with an Airfix Centenary.

 

Bogies from the Hornby LMS diner perhaps - all depends how much licience you have to play with.  Or Comet do an LMS 6 wheel bogie kit.

[Miss Prism]

There were 8 J12s (1st) [yes, 12-wheelers], 9 J11s (3rds), 1 J11 (compo), 3 J14s (3rds), and 4 J18 (1sts, Hawksworth). Can't see a mention of J15-17.

[The Fatadder]

Were the J12s not 12 wheelers, meaningthat a simple "brass sides onto RTR" will not be a stright job with an Airfix Centenary.

 

Bogies from the Hornby LMS diner perhaps - all depends how much licience you have to play with.  Or Comet do an LMS 6 wheel bogie kit.

My first thoughts had been towards using the Airfix body on a scratch built underframe and Comet 6 wheel GW bogies.  

 

Now that I have looked in a little more detail im not so sure.  It only has 3 recessed doors, (the toilet side continuing to the end on one side) and comparing the Russel drawings for Centenary and J12 I think the doors on the J12 are not nearly as angled as the Centenary (despite the body being the same width.

 

The main aim was to try and cut down the cost (the CPL etches being close to 40 for just the sides and ends), but also looking at alternative options.  One thought was cutting new sides from plasticard to overlay (silhouette cutter or laser cut).  I dont like the sound of the weak windows on the CPL etch due to the half etched glazing inserts...

 

I have a spare Centenary brake that I dont really have any use for in any modelled formation at the moment.  I might have a play with it and see what I come up with...

[M.I.B]

My first thoughts had been towards using the Airfix body on a scratch built underframe and Comet 6 wheel GW bogies.  

 

Now that I have looked in a little more detail im not so sure.  It only has 3 recessed doors, (the toilet side continuing to the end on one side) and comparing the Russel drawings for Centenary and J12 I think the doors on the J12 are not nearly as angled as the Centenary (despite the body being the same width.

 

The main aim was to try and cut down the cost (the CPL etches being close to 40 for just the sides and ends), but also looking at alternative options.  One thought was cutting new sides from plasticard to overlay (silhouette cutter or laser cut).  I dont like the sound of the weak windows on the CPL etch due to the half etched glazing inserts...

 

I have a spare Centenary brake that I dont really have any use for in any modelled formation at the moment.  I might have a play with it and see what I come up with...

 £34 for the CPL etch.

 

The more I think about it, the more I am upfor the challenge using the Airfix full corridor version rather than thebrake,and a pair of Kit bogies.

[rovex]

On the subject of sleepers, having been looking at the Russell volumes,the diagrams J10/J15 look like the 57ft collett thirds from the corridor side at least.

If this is right then presumably they could be the basis for a conversion if you can get the compartment sides etched or whatever.

Any thoughts guys

[Oil-burner]

A little before your timeframe admittedly but I thought this snip from "Passenger Train Working May 6th, 1946 until October, 6th, 1946" might be of interest....

Ken...

 

[Miss Prism]

"via Lavington"!

[Coach bogie]

The J11 and J12 are based on 1929 profile wide bodies. The centenary ends will need packing out to meet the flat rebated doors. Luckily I ought mine in the BSL years and the BSL body kits came with bespoke ends to fit.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[BenL]

Like Rich, I’ve managed to get hold of a J12 kit so that I can run the Cornish sleeper services on my 1947 mid-Cornwall layout. But I’m having trouble working out the likely 1947 livery details for the J12s.

 

I’ve been through the Russell books but there are no shots of J12s in postwar GWR livery. The closest we have in there are a J12 in early BR livery and some shots of other sleeper diagrams in postwar GWR livery. The J12 in early BR livery is on p138 of Vol 2 of Russell’s Coach Appendix – it has double waist lining and the 7 inch lined brown strip just below the roof edge, which are common features of the last, 1947 GWR coach livery. It has ‘Sleeping Car’ centrally placed between the double waist lining with no company branding below, and the numeral ‘1’ on the end doors. Given that early BR(W) liveries often appear to be based on the last GWR liveries, we could surmise that had this coach been painted in 1947 it would have been branded ‘Great crest Western’ and had ‘First’ written between the double waist lining on the end doors.

 

However, the shots of other sleeper diagrams in postwar GWR livery (see pages 78 and 169-170 of Vol 2 of Russel’s Pictorial Record of GW Coaches) suggest that rather than having the doors branded ‘First’, a postwar GWR J12 would instead have had ‘First Class’ written between the double waist lining. Most of the shots of other sleeper diagrams in postwar GWR livery are composites so ‘Third Class’ and ‘First Class’ are written each side of a centrally placed ‘Sleeping Coach’ branding. However, on p168 there is a shot of an all third J11 and while the coach is a little grubby and the shot not too clear, you can just make out that the ‘Sleeping Coach’ branding is offset to the right of the central company crest, and presumably there is a ‘Third Class’ branding offset to the left. So this makes me think a J12 would have been branded along these lines, but obviously with ‘First Class’ where the ‘Third Class’ branding is likely to be on the aforementioned coach.

 

But to add a further twist, Harris’ GW Coaches book gives some interesting details on pages 86-87 and 127 on the post-war refurbishment of restaurant and sleeping cars. In the J12 section on p87, it states that 9065/6 were refurbished (by Hamptons – see p127) with one of these being displayed in a November 1946 ‘post-war intentions’ train at Paddington. On p127, it states that Hamptons also restored sleeping cars 9079 in 1948 and 9087 in 1949. So does this mean that 9065/6 were the only J12s refurbished by Hamptons, and the only J12s refurbished in postwar GWR days? It’s hard to imagine that these were the only two J12s to be refurbished in postwar GWR days as the working timetable helpfully posted above suggests that six were needed just to work the London-Penzance sleeper services. So did the GWR refurbish some J12s independently of Hamptons? The photos of other sleeping car diagrams in postwar GWR liveries in Russell’s Pictorial Record suggest that the GWR was renovating at least some of their third and composite sleepers independently.

 

In terms of 9065/6 which were the J12s refurbished by Hamptons and one of which was displayed in the November 1946 ‘post-war intentions’ train, I would suggest that they might have had the more simple livery of 1946 (single waist line, no brown strip just under the roof, central company crest with ‘G.W.R’ over company crest like the J11 on p168 of Russell’s Pictorial Record).

So I think two of the most reasonable options for a postwar GWR J12 livery are:

1. 9065/6 in c.1946 livery like the J11 on p168 of Russell’s Pictorial Record
2. Or, assuming the GWR independently refurbished some J12s itself, or that Harris’ record of J12s refurbished by Hamptons is incomplete, one of the other J12 running numbers in a c.1947 livery like the J13 on p169 of Russell’s Pictorial Record (‘Great crest Western’ branding, double waist lining but no brown strip just below the roof) or the J8 on p78 of the same book (double waist lining, ‘Great Western’ branding with no crest and no brown strip just below the roof)

But if anyone has clearer evidence of what a J12 might have looked like in 1947, I’d certainly be very grateful to know!

 

Cheers,

 

Ben

[Coach bogie]

I have no photo evidence post war but, at least one J12 would have been a priority for refurbishment as, when required, it was included in the GWR Royal Train.

 

Mike Wiltshire