Gresley standard underframe - standard fittings go where?

[Boris]

[/color]Please do tell

 

I think it's fair to say that when the station foreman hands the train back to the guard before the right away is given he will have checked that anybody is off the roof, or any hose pipes or land lines have been detached.

 

Unforunately your statement about the guard making an emergency brake application bringing the train to a stand if the passcom is activated is wholly incorrect. The standard railway vacuum brake system works on 21 inches of vacuum, the pulling of the chain operates an egg shaped cam which lifts a small lid/pot onto a 1 inch pipe thus allowing air into the train pipe. This then drops the pressure in the train pipe to approximately 14 inches of vacuum, this is insufficient to make a harsh brake application, just enough to attact the attention of the crew. This can be overcome by the driver using the large ejector on a steam locomotive or by placing the drivers brake valve in the overspeed position on a diesel locomotive. This indicates to the driver that there is a problem on the train and it requires to be brought to a stand. Referring to the rulebook the driver is told that he should bring the train to a stand in a sensible place, not in a tunnel, on a viaduct, in a cutting or on an embankment, as far as is practical. This can be found in section H of the BR 1972 edition rulebook and the current Rail Group standard rulebook contains a similar paragraph for observance by drivers.

 

The brake handle in the guards compartment is for serious emergency use only, most often when leaving stations and passengers doing stupid things. It is not a particularly precise instrument and making a controlled brake application to bring the train to a stand smoothly is extremely difficult, trust me I have tried this. It is even more awkward on LNER stock as these are non DA fitted, and the brake valve has a reservoir tank above it - the purpose of this being that the valve detects a sudden drop in train pipe pressure say 21" to roughly 8" and the guards brake valve will drop and feather to admit air into the train pipe to admit air faster in case of an emergency brake application.

 

Unfortunately, the guard is not in control of the train, that is where the driver comes in. The guard is in charge of the train, but the driver knows the route and the traction far better than the guard will. To quote an old saying on the railways "the driver is the guards chaffeur on the signalmans railway".

[coachmann]

Mike Trice, thanks very much for responding to my query by posting the pictures of the inner turnbuckle trussrods. Speaking as a coach enthusiast, they are the most useful shots I've even come across.

 

It looks like the vac cylinder had to be positioned slightly differently to avoid the inner trussing than when angle trussing was adopted in the 1930s. To my embarrassment, your pictures show I've been putting the LH and RH angle strips on with the rivets facing the solebar instead of the queenposts!

 

Larry G.

[MikeTrice]

My lounge is currently a tip as I have all my reference materials out. Hopefully I will be able to put them all away again after this!

 

why do you think that the big nut type thing is for filling the tank?

 

Because that is what is shown in the works drawings. I have been going through my references and suggest that vehicle built from 1934 onwards were fitted with the end filler pipes. Before then, it was a climb on the roof job.

 

In works drawing for 1st, 3rd and composite side corridor coaches the filler was on the centre line of the coach however for some open coaches (such as the D186) they were offset. The photos posted previously are probably of open coaches taken on the SVR hence the offset fillers. My guess is that they had end pipes fitted so the actual funnel of the filler has been blocked off. That would also explain the lack of covers.

 

Generally the last ventilator over the toilets were also on the centre line of the roof however there are exceptions. One exception is on a full third side corridor where the width of the toilet compartment is 4'6". Moving the vent towards the toilet compartment would provide direct ventilation which the usual position on the centre line of the roof would not permit. If you have a copy of LNER Carriages by Michael Harris you can just make this out in the photo on page 16.

 

Just to put the cat amoung the pigeons (sorry Coachmann) the two sets of vac cylinders are NOT equidistant from the centreline of the coach, the one furthest from the dynamo is at a greater distance presumably to balance the weight of the fittings.

 

Regarding the heavy duty dynamoes I suspect they are two different types rather than one missing an end cover.

 

Now tidying up while SWMBO is still talking to me!

[Barry Rhys]

Also how would the staff get on to the roof to replenish the tank? Crampons!! As all the photos have not shown any end steps.

 

I think one of the biggest problems for coach modellers, and a very frequent cause of model errors, is that you rarely see photographs showing both ends and both sides of the same coach. When you want to model the footsteps on the end of a coach, you can almost guarantee that the photo you have shows the end of the coach without footsteps. You want to see the position of the Westinghouse brake cylinder below the solebar?...your photo shows the other side... Shape of the large gas on/off control bar on one end of the coach?...guess what, it's at the other end!

 

I hope this doesn't sound patronising, but I'm fairly certain that there will be footsteps leading to the roof of all of the coaches shown - and from both left and right sides of the coach, so that a guard, cleaner or whoever can get up on the roof from either side of the coach. Some coaches have both sets of steps at one end, others have the two sets of steps diagonally opposite at opposite ends. For example in the photo of the D186 open third, why do you assume that there are no footsteps to the left side of the gangway, and hence invisible to the camera, and a second set enabling roof access from this side of the coach but mounted at the other non-photographed end? Or both sets of steps at the non-photographed end? I suspect the Severn Valley Railway coach polishers may have some objections to members of staff using crampons on their teak finish...

 

As to roof access, if I may refer you to the standard brakevan equipment, this includes the provision of an extending ladder. It is also quite likely as carriages were in the past gas lit that stations could have had ladders for staff to get on coach roofs to service said lamps. If all else fails, when you have two vehicles like this with a pullman gangway it is extremely easy to climb onto the roof using lamps irons and pipework, trust me I have done this on Gresley stock.

 

None of this should be necessary, due to the presence of said footsteps. In fact I believe that the main purpose of the footsteps in the early days - at least, when passengers, luggage and brakesmen were no longer required to sit on the roof! - was to light the oillamps or gaslamps (prior to the invention of continuously-burning pilot lights), whether in stations or not.

 

 

Mike Trice, thanks very much for responding to my query by posting the pictures of the inner turnbuckle trussrods. Speaking as a coach enthusiast, they are the most useful shots I've ever come across.

 

Larry G.

 

Mike, I have to add my own thanks here too. These photos have actually solved - let me see, 1..2..3..4 problems that I have been meaning to ask for the last couple of years or so, and never got around to One of them totally unrelated to the topic - the fixing strap details on the battery boxes! Yeah, I know, I'm sure I could have found out somehow. But now I don't need to, so thanks anyway.

 

Neil

[coachmann]

I hope this doesn't sound patronising, but I'm fairly certain that there will be footsteps leading to the roof of all of the coaches shown.......................For example in the photo of the D186 open third, why do you assume that there are no footsteps to the left side of the gangway, and hence invisible to the camera, and a second set enabling roof access from this side of the coach but mounted at the other non-photographed end?

End footsteps on Gresley coaches? As John Wayne would say "Thad'll be the day..."

[Boris]

 

None of this should be necessary, due to the presence of said footsteps. In fact I believe that the main purpose of the footsteps in the early days - at least, when passengers, luggage and brakesmen were no longer required to sit on the roof! - was to light the oillamps or gaslamps (prior to the invention of continuously-burning pilot lights), whether in stations or not.

 

 

 

These coaches don't have steps on the end, at any end or on any corner, if roof access is required you use ladders or climb up using the method I described earlier in the topic, whic does work as I have done it. There are access footboards from rail level into the coach and that is all. Trust me, I have worked with these things for 15 years.

[Barry Rhys]

End footsteps on Gresley coaches? As John Wayne would say "Thad'll be the day..."

 

 

These coaches don't have steps on the end, at any end or on any corner, if roof access is required you use ladders or climb up using the method I described earlier in the topic, whic does work as I have done it. There are access footboards from rail level into the coach and that is all. Trust me, I have worked with these things for 15 years.

 

Larry, Boris, Ozzyo, indeed anybody else reading this thread, I would like to sincerely apologise for making a complete @rse of myself in public view. The info about the Gresleys doesn't surprise me, because I don't get surprised by anything, but I was completely wrong and have learned something new. So thanks for telling me so calmly!

 

Anyway, I do stand by my other statement, that Mike needs thanking, and I will at least get the battery box fixing straps correct in future.

 

Thanks, Neil

[Western Star]

I would like to sincerely apologise for making a complete @rse of myself in public view. The info about the Gresleys doesn't surprise me, because I don't get surprised by anything, but I was completely wrong and have learned something new. So thanks for telling me so calmly!

 

Thanks, Neil

 

You, Sir, are a gentleman. You and I both have learnt about these Coaches as a result of the generosity of those who have taken the time to respond.

 

regards, Graham

[MikeTrice]

Happy to help, and no offence taken.

 

Look forward to seeing photos from the build.

[Western Star]

Look forward to seeing photos from the build.

 

 

This is as far as we have got with the JLTRT D115.... which started out as a D167 until we realised that the underframe arrangement of that kit was not going to allow hanging all of the extra battery boxes and the two additional dynamos. So, one very quick shuffling of bits between kit boxes and the build became that of the corridor all third. Even then things were not as they seemed... as Mike may be able to tell with these battery boxes which are for a truss-rod underframe rather than for an angle-iron underframe.

 

 

Hence the start of this thread to try and get a handle on just what constituted a "standard" LNER carriage underframe. With the photographs and detail information which has been given so generously we feel that we can now start to do justice to the Gresley design... that is until we stumble into the next "gotcha".

 

regards, Graham

[MikeTrice]

Some photos showing the mounting of the battery boxes in steel angle underframes.

 

 

 

 

And finally for when you get around to building the D167 the vac reservoirs are relocated in the middle of the coach:

 

[Western Star]

Some photos showing the mounting of the battery boxes in steel angle underframes.

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for these photos which clarify just how the boxes are supported on the angle-iron underframes. Might you know...

[a] where the front face of the box is relative to the rear face of the solebar?

where the two support girders are relative to the depth of the box?

[c] what retains the boxes on the support girders? (all I can see is an angle iron against the end of the box)

 

In case readers might be thinking "rivets etc..", in 7mm the brass angle for the supprt girders is close to 2mm x 2mm, hence omission of those girders and any visible support for the boxes is obvious and makes a model look silly (possibly on par with the graining of the initial Hornby coaches?)

 

And finally for when you get around to building the D167 the vac reservoirs are relocated in the middle of the coach:

 

 

 

Thank you for this picture which gives just the information which is not visible on any modelling drawing nor any photo of preserved Buffets. Given that the carriage in your picture appears to have an angle-iron underframer then I am surprised to see that the LHS battery box is slung from an underframe cross-member rather than being supported on girders. What do you make of this apparent conundrum?

 

thanks and regards, Graham Beare

[MikeTrice]

[a] where the front face of the box is relative to the rear face of the solebar?

1'1" Battery box is 8'9" long x 1'2.375" deep.

 

where the two support girders are relative to the depth of the box?

They are at 7.5" centres with first centre 1'2.75" from rear of solebar. Support strap is 2.75" x0.5"

 

[c] what retains the boxes on the support girders? (all I can see is an angle iron against the end of the box)

Pass, you have got me there. Actually looking at the drawings it looks as if there is a retaining strap at the top each end of the box which runs from the solebar to the inner rail. Box is bolted to the strap.

 

All dimensions for welded 60'0" underframe.

 

Regarding the photo and the left hand battery box you will note it is none standard and has greater depth. Remember that the fittings on the D167 are non standard as there is a lot of other equipment fitted. That is one area I know very little about so if anyone else can help identify the various boxes, please jump in.

[MikeTrice]

Non-standard boxes

 

[coachmann]

I suppose one should be cautious of preserved items. That Buffet Car appears to have green seats. Not sure if that was the original colour or not. Also the frosted glass looks to have been put in to be convenient to let more light through rather than be white as per LNER frosted glass.

[Boris]

And just to add an extra word of caution, those non standard boxes may be gas boxes not battert boxes, for holding gas cylinders for things like cooking and boilers in catering vehicles, although IIRC that particular example has an electric generator underneath somewhere. Incidentally, the buffet car pictured has standard mk1 seats in it I think. If memory serves buffet cars like that originally had loose seating in a 2+1 arrangement and they were shiny chrome framed things.

[coachmann]

For interior shots of (restored) GWR, LNER and BR coach interiors, the following link is useful :-

 

http://rpm-railpics.fotopic.net/c961219.html

 

Also the Severn Valley LNER set :-

 

http://www.lnersvrcoachfund.org.uk/The_Teak_Set/The_teak_set.html

 

 

Larry G.

[Western Star]

Well now that we have strayed off of the standard underframe into the realm of the Restaurant and Buffet cars... the D167 Buffets carry a modeller's health warning and I - for one - have fallen over in regard to what goes under-where (which is where this thread started from).

 

When the D167 carriages were built some were equipped with gas-cooking equipment and some were equipped with electric-cooking equipment, Harris lists which carriages were "gas" and which were "electric" so identifying one from t'other in photos is not a problem. As an aside, of the 24 or 25 of these carriages which were built there is a surprising number in preservation, one website suggests as many as 12. Harris states that the cooking equipment was replaced/updated in the early/mid 1950s to propane gas and, I presume, that any preserved D167 would have finished BR revenue-service with propane cooking equipment. Further, from pictures on the net, some of the preserved Buffets were used in departmental service before being sold and were likely to have been modified in regard to underframe stowage. What this means to me is that the authenticity of what hangs below the underframe of any D167 today needs careful assessment before considering as a basis for a model of a Buffet in 1948 condition.

 

Now that we are onto the D167 as a prototype for modelling, apart from the two cooking dynamos, one lighting dynamo and the pair of central battery boxes... some prototype photogrpahs show extra boxes placed between the cross-girders and the dynamos (some to left of centre and some to right of centre). Who might be so brave as to suggest what other boxes were hung under the frame of the "electric" Buffets before conversion to propane cooking and what was the purpose of such boxes?

 

thank you and regards, Graham Beare

[MikeTrice]

As has been stated treat preserved example carefully as they were usually rebuilt by BR in the early fifties and do not represent the coaches as built. The same is also true of the roof fittings. Unfortunately I do not have information relating to the underframe fittings of these vehicles as built.

[MikeTrice]

Who might be so brave as to suggest what other boxes were hung under the frame of the "electric" Buffets

 

OK, I have got so far so I might as well stick my neck out.

 

I have been working through my reference material and can put forward a hypothesis.

 

First let us take Restaurant Cars. A large number of vehicles follow this basic arrangement.

 

Surprisingly the position of the vac cylinders is the mirror image of the standard arrangement. Where the battery boxes usually sit are the accumulators for the heating apparatus and these appear to fill the available space between the truss posts so a slightly longer than the usual boxes. To the immediate left of these are a single lighting accumulator (think half a normal battery box). On the kitchen end to the left of that is a slightly shorter refrigeration unit. Behind that (i.e the other side of the vehicle) is a single heavy duty dynamo (Stone's type 7) supplying the heating circuit. The is another Stone's type 7 diametrically opposite (i.e to immediate right of vac cylinder) which also powers the heating circuit. Behind that on the opposite side is the Stone's type 4 dynamo for the lighting circuit. Clear?

 

OK lets try and represent this graphically when viewed from above:

 

....................Type 7 dynamo --- Vac Cyl --------------- Heating Accumulators --- Lighting Accumulator --- Type 4 Dynamo

Kitchen End ------->

....................Refrigeration --- Lighting Accumulator -- Heating Accumulators ----- Vac Cyl -----------------Type 7 Dynamo

 

So what happens for Gas? Simple the centre heating accumulators are removed and replaced by gas tanks

 

As stated in a previous post the vacuum reservoirs are repositioned along the centre of the coach between the heating accumulators and I would guess the same is true for gas fitted vehicles.

 

How about the D167 Buffet?

 

This does not follow the convention and has its vac cylinders in the usual position so the arrangement for these vehicles appears to be:

 

....................Type 7 dynamo --- Lighting Accumulator --- Heating Accumulators --- Vac Cyl ---------- Type 4 Dynamo

Kitchen End ------->

....................Refrigeration ------ Vac Cyl ------------- Heating Accumulators --- Lighting Accumulator ----Type 7 Dynamo

 

The photos of the dynamo from the D167 Buffet Car posted perviously could well be one of the heavier duty Stone's dynamos.

 

Once again gas powered have the centre accumulators removed and gas tanks substituted.

 

Phew!

[Western Star]

I have been working through my reference material and can put forward a hypothesis.

 

First let us take Restaurant Cars. A large number of vehicles follow this basic arrangement.

 

Surprisingly the position of the vac cylinders is the mirror image of the standard arrangement. Where the battery boxes usually sit are the accumulators for the heating apparatus and these appear to fill the available space between the truss posts so a slightly longer than the usual boxes. To the immediate left of these are a single lighting accumulator (think half a normal battery box). On the kitchen end to the left of that is a slightly shorter refrigeration unit. Behind that (i.e the other side of the vehicle) is a single heavy duty dynamo (Stone's type 7) supplying the heating circuit. The is another Stone's type 7 diametrically opposite (i.e to immediate right of vac cylinder) which also powers the heating circuit. Behind that on the opposite side is the Stone's type 4 dynamo for the lighting circuit. Clear?

 

 

Thank you Mike for the effort you have taken in putting forward your thoughts on the D167 underframe arrangement. I had assumed that the battery boxes between the cross-girders hold the batteries for the coach lighting, so are you saying that the restaurant cars have the lighting batteries outboard of the cross-girders? Does "heating apparatus" refer to the batteries for the equipment in the kitchen area? Which of your previous photos, if any, show a Stone's No.7 and which a Stone's No.4?

 

You have not mentioned the vacuum reservoirs in the above paragraph - am I correct to assume that the reservoirs are on the coach centre-line and between the cross-girders?

 

 

OK lets try and represent this graphically when viewed from above:

 

....................Type 7 dynamo --- Vac Cyl --------------- Heating Accumulators --- Lighting Accumulator --- Type 4 Dynamo

Kitchen End ------->

....................Refrigeration --- Lighting Accumulator -- Heating Accumulators ----- Vac Cyl -----------------Type 7 Dynamo

 

 

When looking down on the coach... which side is the corridor?

 

 

How about the D167 Buffet?

 

This does not follow the convention and has its vac cylinders in the usual position so the arrangement for these vehicles appears to be:

 

....................Type 7 dynamo --- Lighting Accumulator --- Heating Accumulators --- Vac Cyl ---------- Type 4 Dynamo

Kitchen End ------->

....................Refrigeration ------ Vac Cyl ------------- Heating Accumulators --- Lighting Accumulator ----Type 7 Dynamo

 

The photos of the dynamo from the D167 Buffet Car posted perviously could well be one of the heavier duty Stone's dynamos.

 

Phew!

 

 

I was going along quite nicely until I read the last bit. D167... Vac Cyls... Usual position... What is the "usual position" for such a beast? I ask because the location of the vac cyls is what started this quest for details of the Gresley standard underframe (and in passing I have not received the MJT drawing as yet). The JLTRT D167 kit has a resin floor pan, that casting has a recess for the etch plate which provides the trunnions for the vacuum cylinder and adjacent break cross-shaft. After building up the angle-iron trusses and attaching those items to the underframe plus the vacuum cylinders and the lighting dynamo we realised that there was no space to fit the cooking dynamos (which are not supplied) - the vacuum cylinders were sitting just where the cooking dynamos ought to be. Photographs of preserved vehicles suggest that the trunnions for the break shaft are closer to the centre cross-girders than on, say, a D115 - moving the etch plate towards the centre of the model would then give space for the cooking dynamos, but to where?

 

I guess that I shall have to find a D167 and measure the distance between the breakshaft trunnions and the centre girders - at least those parts ought to be in the original locations.

 

regards, Graham Beare

[MikeTrice]

are you saying that the restaurant cars have the lighting batteries outboard of the cross-girders?

Yes

 

Does "heating apparatus" refer to the batteries for the equipment in the kitchen area?

Yes

 

Which of your previous photos, if any, show a Stone's No.7 and which a Stone's No.4?

Without actually examining the dynamos (they contain labels that state the type) it is difficult to say. Basically the no 7 is heavier than a no 4. It is possible that the dynamo still on the D167s are heavy duty and no 4 are the smaller dynamo (with the domed end).

 

am I correct to assume that the reservoirs are on the coach centre-line and between the cross-girders?

Correct. These are shown in that position in the photo you queried the left hand battery box on.

 

When looking down on the coach... which side is the corridor?

For the D167 Buffet the top side. I think it also applies to the restaurants as well.

 

What is the "usual position" for such a beast?

When viewed from the side they are usually to the left of the battery boxes:

 

in passing I have not received the MJT drawing as yet

Not guilty but it will be worth waiting for

 

Photographs of preserved vehicles suggest that the trunnions for the break shaft are closer to the centre cross-girders than on, say, a D115

Can't say I had noticed but you appear to be correct.

 

I guess that I shall have to find a D167 and measure the distance between the breakshaft trunnions and the center girders

Yes please, and let us know what you measure?

[Western Star]

 

Not guilty but it will be worth waiting for

 

Can't say I had noticed but you appear to be correct.

 

Yes please, and let us know what you measure?

 

 

I appreciate that the drawing is available from Dart rather than MJT... the reputation of the drawing heralds much pleasure to come. The last photo does show how much closer is the break cross-shaft to the girders and hence how space is made available to mount the extra dynamos. As and when the details will be posted here.

[Western Star]

Returning to the "standard" underframe and picking up on a point mentioned in an earlier reply.. which side of the coach has the train pipe? I guess that the options are:-

 

[1] train pipe on corridor side;

[2] train pipe on non-corridor side;

[3] train pipe along the centre line.

 

I might assume that the train pipe is always on the corridor (or on the non-corridor) side of a coach... however, if all one has is a view which does not show a train pipe then the possibility exists that the pipe is down the centre. So, is there any guidance about which diagrams (or builder) had the train pipe down the centre-line of the coach? If the train-pipe is not on the centre-line, is there any convention which determines which solebar of a coach would have the train pipe?

 

regards, Graham

[Boris]

As a rule of thumb, vacuum hoses sit to the left of the buckeye when viewed end-on on most corridor coaching stock. I would be interested to see the answer to this one though to see if there is any convention for where the actually through pipe runs.