Castles on Branch Lines with short trains

[Seanem44]

A while back I read something and I don't know where I saw it.  I read that Castles would sometime run short trains on branch lines after they had been shopped or built.  Can anyone confirm this or point me in the direction of an article regarding this?

 

I'm about to start work on a GWR branch line around the 1945 time frame.  Three coaches will be the max for any formation, and as such I have preordered 2 Collet brake thirds and a composite for when they are released in summer.  I would very much like to have an excuse to run a Castle, because who wouldn't want a castle that models GWR?

 

Anyhow, thanks for the help!

[Karhedron]

Castles on short trains were pretty common after servicing. The Swindon to Didcot stopper was a common "running-in turn" and usually consisted of a B-set. However these were mainline runs, not Branchline trains.

 

http://album.atomic-systems.com/showPic.php/45092/0478.jpg/6

Edited February 9, 2017 by Karhedron

[Karhedron]

However Castles on Branchlines were a lot less common due to their weight. Castles were red-route locos and so were largely restricted to the mainline. Of course there were some lines which were technically branchlines but in practice justified mainline levels of traction. Newquay and Kingswear are both examples. Some Branchlines could also handle Castles due to historical reasons. The Marlow branch for instance was a red-route as the Maideanhead - High Wycombe line on which it was situated had once been the GWR's main route to Birmingham before the route to Northolt Junction was opened. Castles could be seen on the Marlow branch on excursion trains but not usually on short passenger trains.

 

[Fat Controller]

They did work semi-fasts between Swansea and Carmarthen; they also worked the 'Pembroke Coast Express, which mid--week was a four-coach set as far as Swansea

[Karhedron]

Interesting. I have seen shots of the 4-coach PCE but with something lighter like a Manor in charge. Not disputing you mind.

[Seanem44]

Thanks guys.  So bottom line is with a little creative reasoning, while not at all common, it would not be unheard of to have such a train run on the Terminus I plan on building. 

 

I plan on making it war/post war period, so in my little background I imagine them possibly being used as evacuation trains, or bringing soldiers home.  With that, I think under the circumstances, it would work and I could use a "for the war effort" attitude. 

 

I had just purchased a Hornby Wellington Castle, so with its livery it puts in right around 1945ish.  I'll just say it got its running in taking Soldiers home or something to that affect.

[seahorse]

I can't just locate the pictures - I think it's one of Peter Gray's books - of the engine off the Torbay Express working tender first, still with headboard, to Newton  Abbot on a goods, and back the next morning tender first on a local passenger. It may not be quite your time period, but just say "well this is what it would have looked like if it had"

[TomJ]

Castle's were not unheard of on the West Country milk trains. They often had a largish 'passenger' engine because they ran to passenger timings.

The milk would start off from Penzance as only a few tankers and a brake before more we added as it went through Cornwall and Devon. So it could well be possibly to imagine a situation where the milk started first from a dairy on your branchline

[The Johnster]

On the South Wales line the Whitland-Kensington milk was another such train, starting off with a relatively small number of tanks and a van from Whitland and picking up more on the way up to make up a full load.  Milk tanks were limited to 55mph loaded, 45mph empty, and ran to tight timings though not the same as express passenger ones AFAIK. 

 

Another source of traffic, similar in some ways to the milk, were the West Country and South Wales fish trains, Milford Haven on the Welsh side, which might start off with relatively few vans but picked up empty parcels, newspaper, odd bits of coaching stock, and all sorts of stuff en route.  These were 60mph runners and another Castle job.

Edited February 9, 2017 by The Johnster

[TheSignalEngineer]

Although not with short trains Castles did use the Bumble Hole branch to get from Snow Hill to Wolverhampton during engineering works. It's normal use was for the Dudley to Old Hill autocoach and 64xx but it was classified Dotted Red which meant Red class locos could use it at low speed.

[Fat Controller]

Interesting. I have seen shots of the 4-coach PCE but with something lighter like a Manor in charge. Not disputing you mind.

Page 130/131 of 'The Red Dragon and other old friends' show 5004 and 5048 about to cross one another on the Down and Up trains, just outside Gowerton. The photos are dated 25/11/1961, and both trains are formed of 4 'chocolate and cream' Mark 1s. 

[The Stationmaster]

Castle's were not unheard of on the West Country milk trains. They often had a largish 'passenger' engine because they ran to passenger timings.

The milk would start off from Penzance as only a few tankers and a brake before more we added as it went through Cornwall and Devon. So it could well be possibly to imagine a situation where the milk started first from a dairy on your branchline

 

Very few West country branchlines were Red routes - basically only Par - Newquay and Truro - Falmouth; the main reason that 'Castles' worked the Milk Trains was because they were allowed the heaviest trailing loads, which wouldn't be needed on the branches in the far west alas.

 

To clarify 'Karhedron's' post above I'm fairly sure that 'Castles' were not permitted on the Marlow branch but they very definitely were permitted on the Wycombe Branch (Maidenhead to High Wycombe - where the photo show in that post was taken (incidentally on an historical note the Wycombe Railway was never the GWR's main route to Birmingham as it did not reach Oxford until 1861 and was only a secondary link/diversionary route - the main route being via Didcot until the Bicester cut-off and GWR/GCR Joint line opened).

 

I think the best chance of using a 'Castle' on a lesser or secondary route on a short train is to go for something like the Wycombe Branch - a through line, entirely single track except at crossing stations but used over the years by an interesting variety of excursions in addition to regular traffic.

[The Stationmaster]

On the South Wales line the Whitland-Kensington milk was another such train, starting off with a relatively small number of tanks and a van from Whitland and picking up more on the way up to make up a full load.  Milk tanks were limited to 55mph loaded, 45mph empty, and ran to tight timings though not the same as express passenger ones AFAIK. 

 

Another source of traffic, similar in some ways to the milk, were the West Country and South Wales fish trains, Milford Haven on the Welsh side, which might start off with relatively few vans but picked up empty parcels, newspaper, odd bits of coaching stock, and all sorts of stuff en route.  These were 60mph runners and another Castle job.

Milk tanks were 60mph loaded, 50mph empty in the days when they were worked by 'Castles' - the speeds were reduced some years after steam had gone from the Western.

[Chris M]

It could of course be a preserved railway. Over the years the Severn Valley Railway has strengthened its bridges so it can now run heavier locos than it could when under GWR/BR ownership. Under BR it was a blue route so Castles would not have been allowed but Kings can now to visit. I expect some other preserved lines have done similar .

[Joseph_Pestell]

Agree with all the above. Some short trains on main lines with Castles and some long trains on branches - but branches like Kingswear which are almost secondary main lines.

 

I had not thought of Falmouth which could give rise to a special train connecting with a liner.

 

But if you want to model a smallish terminus, why not go for Plymouth Millbay. it closed a few years before 1945 (1941?) but you can apply Rule 1 on that.

[Karhedron]

Castle's were not unheard of on the West Country milk trains. They often had a largish 'passenger' engine because they ran to passenger timings.

The milk would start off from Penzance as only a few tankers and a brake before more we added as it went through Cornwall and Devon. So it could well be possibly to imagine a situation where the milk started first from a dairy on your branchline

The reverse situation could also occur with empties from one milk depot leaving first with others being collected en-route. The shot below shows 5014 shortly after leaving Wood Lane with the down west country empties. Not quite as short as the Up milk between Penzance and St Erth (which was normally 2 tankers plus a brake) but it gives an idea of a Castle on a short train.

 

[Karhedron]

To clarify 'Karhedron's' post above I'm fairly sure that 'Castles' were not permitted on the Marlow branch but they very definitely were permitted on the Wycombe Branch (Maidenhead to High Wycombe - where the photo show in that post was taken (incidentally on an historical note the Wycombe Railway was never the GWR's main route to Birmingham as it did not reach Oxford until 1861 and was only a secondary link/diversionary route - the main route being via Didcot until the Bicester cut-off and GWR/GCR Joint line opened).

Thanks for the extra info. I am not certain about Castles but I know a Hall reached Marlow in 1939 with a Regatta special which implies red-route locos were permitted. Karau's book has a photo of it on the branch itself, leading its train into Bourne End station.

[brianusa]

Large tender engines, except Kings were available for use on the Tavistock branch as far as Yelverton, as is fairly well known.  In the late forties, I was able to observe an unknown Castle at Shaugh Bridge on a Down train on what was probably a day tripper to the Moors from North Road. The bridges and viaducts were suitable south of Yelverton but perhaps those further down the line were not although they supported 4-4-0s early on.

 

Brian.

[Guest]

You might want to consider the 0930/0940 Newquay-Paddington and 0930 Paddington-Newquay return as a prototype. These trains ran from 1953 as reliefs to the Cornish Riviera and had a Laira Castle west of Plymouth. The trains attached/detached Newquay portions at Par and the Castle had just four coaches between Par and Newquay. The Castle lodged overnight at Truro shed and operated tender first wih a B set on the 17:24 Falmouth-Truro and 08:08 Truro-Falmouth. (The mainline stock berthed overnight at Falmouth.) Not exactly your era but it would be reasonable to assume that something similar occurred in the 1940s wih a train that combined portions from more than one branch before running forward to London.

[Coach bogie]

There is also Princes-Risborough to Oxford via the Thame branch which allowed red route engines. Four and six coach non corridor stock workings were a regular feature using saint, Star and Castles. I recall a shot of a Hawksworth County on one of Stationmaster's threads pulling out of Wheatley on suburbans.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Just remembered another one. The Devizes branch which had regular castle workings, usually corridor stock, some sets only four coaches long. There were a handful of Paddington - Bristol trains, routed via Devizes.

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/00-0-a-WR10-120-ed-chaplin-b.jpg

 

MW

Edited February 10, 2017 by Coach bogie

[Metr0Land]

Middleton Press Paddington to Princes Risborough has a pic of the 11:30 Oxford to Paddington at Greenford (which would have routed via the Oxford-Risborough line). Stock is Castle + 5 compartment coaches and AFAIK was a regular working.

[Siberian Snooper]

Large tender engines, except Kings were available for use on the Tavistock branch as far as Yelverton, as is fairly well known.  In the late forties, I was able to observe an unknown Castle at Shaugh Bridge on a Down train on what was probably a day tripper to the Moors from North Road. The bridges and viaducts were suitable south of Yelverton but perhaps those further down the line were not although they supported 4-4-0s early on.

 

Brian.

 

The sticking point for anything large going past Yelverton, was that, Yelverton Tunnel had limited clearances.

[TheSignalEngineer]

In their twilight months Castles worked a lot of stopping trains in the West Midlands. This one is at Claverdon on the Hatton to Bearley line with a three-coach Class 2 working from Leamington to Gloucester in 1964.

[Karhedron]

In their twilight months Castles worked a lot of stopping trains in the West Midlands. This one is at Claverdon on the Hatton to Bearley line with a three-coach Class 2 working from Leamington to Gloucester in 1964.

Guessing you meant to attach this pic?

 

[Miss Prism]

All very interesting, but hardly anything mentioned so far can be classed as 'branch line' in the sense envisaged by the OP.