Castles on Branch Lines with short trains

[The Stationmaster]

I belive Kings were not permitted to haul trains tender first and 2 kings were not permitted to double head until the mid 1950s.

 

 

Two 'Kings' coupled were permitted to haul trains or run light engine(s) over certain specified sections of route from October 1948; prior to that it was not permitted to run two 'Kings' coupled (although it was definitely done in connection with various tests but that would have been under special authority).

[jonny777]

This is neither a Castle nor a branch line, so completely O/T, but it does show what might turn up if your station is on the running-in route.

 

King Charles II at Wantage Road on 13th May 1961.

 

 

 

 

What grieves me about this, is that the loco was withdrawn 16 months later.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Two 'Kings' coupled were permitted to haul trains or run light engine(s) over certain specified sections of route from October 1948; prior to that it was not permitted to run two 'Kings' coupled (although it was definitely done in connection with various tests but that would have been under special authority).

Like these doing a bit of 'First Principles' style bridge testing on the new Relief Lines at Olton in the early 1930s

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwro1578.htm

Edited February 23, 2017 by TheSignalEngineer

[Seanem44]

Hmmm....

 

So then maybe a terminus is not the way to go, if I want to keep it true prototypical.

 

Maybe a single or double mainline going past a small station with a fiddle yard on each end would be the way to go, in order to justify having the Castle I just purchased.

 

This might also be interesting for two other reasons.   As I plan on adding a milk facility, it adds operational interest in that a shunter could take the milk wagon out an attach it to the end of the 2 or 3 coach Castle (and maybe even a fruit D) to get it back to London expeditiously.

 

The second thing this might do is help me avoid the clichéd GWR terminus.  I had already planned to help solve that by having a WWII era layout, but this would further solve it.

 

Thoughts?

Edited February 23, 2017 by Seanem44

[The Johnster]

Kelham Hall would have been interesting. By that time, it did not have owners in the conventional sense. The Manners-Sutton family had moved out and sold the Hall (now the headquarters of the District Council) to a theological college.

 

They apparently didn't consult the various noble Earls who were discomfited when their titles appeared on the 32xx (later 90xx) rebuilds of ancient 4-4-0s, as several complained and the names were transferred to new 50xx series Castles.  It is a strange attitude to naming from a company which held on to it's traditions and at one time only thought numbers were suitable for narrow (i.e. standard) gauge engines.

Kelham Hall would have been interesting. By that time, it did not have owners in the conventional sense. The Manners-Sutton family had moved out and sold the Hall (now the headquarters of the District Council) to a theological college.

 

They apparently didn't consult the various noble Earls who were discomfited when their titles appeared on the 32xx (later 90xx) rebuilds of ancient 4-4-0s, as several complained and the names were transferred to new 50xx series Castles.  It is a strange attitude to naming from a company which held on to it's traditions and at one time only thought numbers were suitable for narrow (i.e. standard) gauge engines.

[Kris]

Hmmm....

 

So then maybe a terminus is not the way to go, if I want to keep it true prototypical.

 

Maybe a single or double mainline going past a small station with a fiddle yard on each end would be the way to go, in order to justify having the Castle I just purchased.

 

This might also be interesting for two other reasons.   As I plan on adding a milk facility, it adds operational interest in that a shunter could take the milk wagon out an attach it to the end of the 2 or 3 coach Castle (and maybe even a fruit D) to get it back to London expeditiously.

 

The second thing this might do is help me avoid the clichéd GWR terminus.  I had already planned to help solve that by having a WWII era layout, but this would further solve it.

 

Thoughts?

 

If you want the single track lines with a small station, have a look at the Newquay line. Fits the bill nicely. 

[The Johnster]

Hmmm....

 

So then maybe a terminus is not the way to go, if I want to keep it true prototypical.

 

Maybe a single or double mainline going past a small station with a fiddle yard on each end would be the way to go, in order to justify having the Castle I just purchased.

 

This might also be interesting for two other reasons.   As I plan on adding a milk facility, it adds operational interest in that a shunter could take the milk wagon out an attach it to the end of the 2 or 3 coach Castle (and maybe even a fruit D) to get it back to London expeditiously.

 

The second thing this might do is help me avoid the clichéd GWR terminus.  I had already planned to help solve that by having a WWII era layout, but this would further solve it.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

First thought is that if you want to keep it prototypical you will have to model an actual location to scale for the period you want.

 

That is usually not what people who are free-spirited enough to buy a loco and then build a layout to justify it want to hear, so, yes, a through station, an imaginary location that would have seen such traffic would be the way to go.  Kris has just suggested the Newquay line, but I have the feeling that the usual appearance of a big 4-6-0 here would be on a summer Saturday with a dozen or so coaches behind it.  

 

The further away from Paddington you make it, the more likely you are to find the milk depot you mention and the more likely you are to have the fish traffic that is another source of small trains that get bigger the further up line and smaller the further down line you go.  Cornwall or Wales west of Carmarthen seem to fit the bill best, and you are welcome to use the idea I had some years ago for a terminus at St David's, almost as far west as Wales gets but it considers itself the smallest city in the UK because it has, undeniably, a cathederal.  It was going to have a through portion of the Pembroke Coast Express as an excuse for a big engine, with a full first to cater to the needs of the various Lords Spiritual who would have used the line.  Traffic would have been a local shuttle from Haverfordwest, perhaps an auto from Fishguard, milk, a pickup with plenty of cattle traffic, and the PCE, perhaps 2 or 3 chocolate and cream BR mk1s (I was thinking about 1960) as the highlight of the day, with the big engine that brought it in taking the milk back while the local took the ecs to H/west for stabling, the reverse working being a reverse of that!

 

Wartime might have precluded the PCE or it's predecessors, but there was an RAF and RNAS presence in the area, which would have generated a good bit of traffic for both the passenger and goods sides of the terminus (we are back to a terminus, which saves you a fiddle yard), and a big engine could well turn up on some sort of special connected with the military.

 

If you want a through station, have it on the imaginary St David's branch if that suits, as a single line with a passing loop and a milk depot.  As the meerkat says, simples!

Edited February 23, 2017 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

The next question to ask yourself, Sean, is, do I feel lucky; no, forget that, that's Clint Eastwood...  Is the Magnum, I mean Castle, 44.calibre, I mean 4mm or 2mm.  I am guessing 4mm, hence the need for short trains for it to realistically pull, in which case I am making the assumption that, like most of us, you haven't got enough space to do what you really want to do, which is watch it appear from the distance doing about 80 with a 12 coach express, let it roar past you, and disappear into the distance while the dust settles, the signals go back to danger, and the imaginary 4mm birdsong starts up again.  We can all dream...

 

If you are limited for space, the basic form of the layout, whether it is a terminus or through station, becomes of most importance, and because fiddle yards have to be at least as long as your longest train, having two of them as you would have to for a through station eats into the modelled area alarmingly.  Unless you have room for a continuous circuit so that the fiddle yard can be one side and the modelled area on the other.  This, coupled with the shunting that is essential with them, is why termini are so popular.

 

My Magnum is plain choclate and vanilla ice cream. Nomnomomom...

[Seanem44]

Yep... back to the Terminus.

 

Maybe the best approach is what I thought earlier. Make a fun and engaging branch line layout based on prototypical branch line operations with an occasional war related plausible but not probable movement, i.e. Castle Pulling three coaches of Soldiers/Airmen in while leaving with a Fruit-D or Milk Wagon back for London. I suppose there's a balance somewhere.

[Kris]

First thought is that if you want to keep it prototypical you will have to model an actual location to scale for the period you want.

 

That is usually not what people who are free-spirited enough to buy a loco and then build a layout to justify it want to hear, so, yes, a through station, an imaginary location that would have seen such traffic would be the way to go.  Kris has just suggested the Newquay line, but I have the feeling that the usual appearance of a big 4-6-0 here would be on a summer Saturday with a dozen or so coaches behind it.  

 

 

Because of the grading on the line lots of coaches would require 2 or even 3 locos at times. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by Kris

[The Johnster]

Yep... back to the Terminus.

 

Maybe the best approach is what I thought earlier. Make a fun and engaging branch line layout based on prototypical branch line operations with an occasional war related plausible but not probable movement, i.e. Castle Pulling three coaches of Soldiers/Airmen in while leaving with a Fruit-D or Milk Wagon back for London. I suppose there's a balance somewhere.

 

The balance depends on your interpretation of Rule 1, but as an example of how weird things got sometimes during the war, apparently an LNER B12 4-6-0 turned up at Coryton in Cardiff, the end of a suburban branch line with a hospital near it.  B12s were commonly used on the ambulance trains that ran direct from the front during the invasion of Europe, after late 1944, to hospitals in Britain via the train ferries and Harwich. These trains were air braked because of the necessity to use them with French, Dutch, Belgian or, in the closing stages of the campaign, German locos, and the ex GER B12s were fitted with Westinghouse air brakes.

 

Not only did it get to Coryton, but the last few miles from Cardiff General must have been done tender first.  Show that on a model and see what response you get!!!

 

As well as the odd troop special, you might get visiting military brass requiring specials as well.  And that Fruit D might have worked in with the Castle as well, with the regiment's kit stowed in it!

 

If you have bought a Castle on impulse and the layout planning is the result, what will probably happen is that you will also buy a lot of smaller locos more suitable for branch line work along with appropriate stock for them to pull, and these are what will feature in most of your operating sessions, with the Castle putting in an occasional guest appearance.  Given the scenario, I'd say this is well within the gamut of model railway excuses for things, and quite reasonable behaviour.  It is a lot more plausible than many exhibition layouts that feature small branch termini that just happen to have massive TMDs or with inspection saloons hanging about the place!

Edited February 24, 2017 by The Johnster

[Seanem44]

The balance depends on your interpretation of Rule 1, but as an example of how weird things got sometimes during the war, apparently an LNER B12 4-6-0 turned up at Coryton in Cardiff, the end of a suburban branch line with a hospital near it.  B12s were commonly used on the ambulance trains that ran direct from the front during the invasion of Europe, after late 1944, to hospitals in Britain via the train ferries and Harwich. These trains were air braked because of the necessity to use them with French, Dutch, Belgian or, in the closing stages of the campaign, German locos, and the ex GER B12s were fitted with Westinghouse air brakes.

 

Not only did it get to Coryton, but the last few miles from Cardiff General must have been done tender first.  Show that on a model and see what response you get!!!

 

As well as the odd troop special, you might get visiting military brass requiring specials as well.  And that Fruit D might have worked in with the Castle as well, with the regiment's kit stowed in it!

 

If you have bought a Castle on impulse and the layout planning is the result, what will probably happen is that you will also buy a lot of smaller locos more suitable for branch line work along with appropriate stock for them to pull, and these are what will feature in most of your operating sessions, with the Castle putting in an occasional guest appearance.  Given the scenario, I'd say this is well within the gamut of model railway excuses for things, and quite reasonable behaviour.  It is a lot more plausible than many exhibition layouts that feature small branch termini that just happen to have massive TMDs or with inspection saloons hanging about the place!

Fortunately the Castle was not the cart before the horse. While waiting to move in June into a house with a basement I've been slowly gathering up stock. 64XX, 56xx, a 14xx on order as well as a collett 0-6-0. Very much branchline-centric items. The castle was more of a want than a need. Same goes for the Olton Hall I picked up for 50 pounds. That was more or less because my wife loves Harry Potter and while vacationing in England in 2012 we saw her at the NRM. Gives my wife a reason to enjoy it. The Castle is just an icon I felt I had to have. Just a beautiful engine.

[TheSignalEngineer]

If you have bought a Castle on impulse and the layout planning is the result, what will probably happen is that you will also buy a lot of smaller locos more suitable for branch line work along with appropriate stock for them to pull, and these are what will feature in most of your operating sessions, with the Castle putting in an occasional guest appearance.  Given the scenario, I'd say this is well within the gamut of model railway excuses for things, and quite reasonable behaviour.  It is a lot more plausible than many exhibition layouts that feature small branch termini that just happen to have massive TMDs or with inspection saloons hanging about the place!

My own layout's ficticious location in the Dudley area was chosen as I wanted a Black Country line suitable for a Super D, but also wanted to run my Scot, Jubilee, Grange, B1, etc.

The South Staffs line saw a lot of school and other specials to Dudley Zoo with all sorts of LMS locos, B1s and Brush Type 2s. Many 'foreign' GW locos accessed Stafford Road Works via the OWW including the St Blazey 45xx which I had for haulage from St Agnes to Chacewater in 1959. They were then used on local trips for running-in turns. 

[The Johnster]

Fortunately the Castle was not the cart before the horse. While waiting to move in June into a house with a basement I've been slowly gathering up stock. 64XX, 56xx, a 14xx on order as well as a collett 0-6-0. Very much branchline-centric items. The castle was more of a want than a need. Same goes for the Olton Hall I picked up for 50 pounds. That was more or less because my wife loves Harry Potter and while vacationing in England in 2012 we saw her at the NRM. Gives my wife a reason to enjoy it. The Castle is just an icon I felt I had to have. Just a beautiful engine.

 

I cannot argue with that, something about proportions and just looking 'right'.  They are still my favourite GW loco after the 56xx, which I sort of love for it's front-heavy look; awkward and out of proportion standing still, but it all came together when you saw them working hard.  I'd watch them going up the bank on the Rhymney with trains of coal empties over the back of the house when I was a lad, always apparently in a hurry, and they'd put me in mind of terriers straining at the leash on a rabbiting expedition... 

[Seanem44]

I cannot argue with that, something about proportions and just looking 'right'.  They are still my favourite GW loco after the 56xx, which I sort of love for it's front-heavy look; awkward and out of proportion standing still, but it all came together when you saw them working hard.  I'd watch them going up the bank on the Rhymney with trains of coal empties over the back of the house when I was a lad, always apparently in a hurry, and they'd put me in mind of terriers straining at the leash on a rabbiting expedition... 

 

Yep... we all have our favorites.

 

I will run the Castle, prototypical or not.  However, if I can have a legitimate excuse, it will make me feel slightly better

[Andy Kirkham]

 and they'd put me in mind of terriers straining at the leash on a rabbiting expedition... 

A delightful comparison!

[Coppercap]

and they'd put me in mind of terriers straining at the leash on a rabbiting expedition...

 

I'd have thought of something with a lot more grunt, a stocky stance, and a loud pant when pulling hard - something like a Staffie!

[The Johnster]

I'd have thought of something with a lot more grunt, a stocky stance, and a loud pant when pulling hard - something like a Staffie!

 

Now you're talking about a 42xx... 

 

Or back to the ex.

[Karhedron]

To clarify 'Karhedron's' post above I'm fairly sure that 'Castles' were not permitted on the Marlow branch but they very definitely were permitted on the Wycombe Branch (Maidenhead to High Wycombe - where the photo show in that post was taken

 

Just to pick up on this, "The Branch Lines of Buckinghamshire" by Colin G. Maggs has the following note about the Bourne End to Marlow branch.

 

 

The branch had an overall limit of 40 mph and "Red" engines were not to exceed 20 mph with a lower limit of 5 mph (10 mph for 0 4 2Ts), leaving Bourne End. "Castle" class engines were permitted to haul 455 tons.

 

Not definitive of course but it implies Castles were permitted all the way to Marlow (I don't know if it happened though).

Edited April 4, 2017 by Karhedron

[chrisf]

It's true, folks.  The route availability bit of the London Division summer 1960 passenger WTT lists Bourne End to Marlow as "dotted red".  All classes were permitted except Kings and 47xx.  Red locos were restricted to 20 mph.  At Marlow Red and Blue engines were prohibited from the goods shed and beyond the doors of the engine shed.

 

Now someone should model Marlow with a regular Castle working.  Go on, I dare you.

 

Chris

[The Stationmaster]

 

Just to pick up on this, "The Branch Lines of Buckinghamshire" by Colin G. Maggs has the following note about the Bourne End to Marlow branch.

 

 

 

Not definitive of course but it implies Castles were permitted all the way to Marlow (I don't know if it happened though).

 

 

There are some strange things in the later steam age Passenger Train Loads Book and the Marlow one is one of them when taken with another branch in the same table.  Thus Bourne End - Marlow shows a load for 'Castles' (and 'Counties' and 'Britannias') which might or might not have ever got down that branch while Twyford - Henley doesn't have a load for those engines despite the fact that 'Castles' worked over the line regularly (in fact daily at that time).

 

It gets even more amusing if you go back to the first GWR issue of a Passenger train etc Loads Book in 1927 where the Marlow Branch didn't have a load for 'Stars' & 'Castles' but the Henley Branch did  (but the Marlow branch definitely had loads for other 'Red' engines such as 'Cities').  

 

The point that is most pertinent is that because there was a load quoted it didn't necessarily mean an engine of a particular Class was permitted (or not permitted) over a certain stretch of line and this disconnect continued for a very long time.  We had a derailment at Cranmore c.1975 which didn't involve the loco but its number was shown in the report and some pen pusher well away from the scene of action decided to do a bit of delving and came charging back in correspondence demanding disciplinary action against our supervisor who had allowed a Class 45 (or was it a 46?) to work the Cranmore trip.  As it happened the Route Availability Book was very ambiguous as it didn't show that Class as banned but nor did it show it as 'tested',  however the Loads Book gave the Class a load to Cranmore.  Paperwork can sometimes set traps for the unwary, or even the wary.  Which, of course, is not to say that a 'Castle' never worked to Marlow

[The Johnster]

I would endorse Mike's comments; loads and timings were published in the WTTs or Sectional Appendices to them which showed what the locos were supposed to be able to pull over a route, in what time, but they do not confirm or otherwise that such locos regularly or ever worked over it.  I would err on the side of not modelling something unless you know it happened, and even then not if it didn't happen at least occasionally, a one off doesn't cut it for me, but your Rule 1 might be different from my Rule 1; that's the point of Rule 1!

[rodent279]

Please!

 

Brian.

Seconded. Pretty please.

[stratman5134]

Will fit into 18 feet in 4mm scale (with part of the station building omitted) and a nice convenient road overbridge at the other end.  But as already noted the 'Castles' only ever worked 'big' trains onto/from the branch.  Windsor of course did see shorter trains worked by 'Castles' but they were for very special purposes in connection with the activities of the residents of the castle across the road from the station.

 

4-6-0s definitely worked to Fishguard so quite likely 'Castles' got there.  However the place with very distinct probabilities is Neyland - a place which surprisingly never seems to have been modelled despite its very considerable attractions with a good mixture of traffics and a fascinating track layout with the loco depot partly between the arrival and departure platforms (which it retained to the end) and the rest of the loco depot on the far side of the Up Line.  It boasted relatively short (but more than two coach) portions of trains headed much further afield and although I don't think it ever had any 'Castles' allocated there is clear photographic evidence that they could be seen there, certainly in later BR steam period years.

As a child i spent many hours round Neyland yard, my best mates uncle was a driver there. I can confirm that Castles definately appeared. The winter timetable tended towards 3 coach trains which increased to 5 coaches in the summer. I can remember Counties as the sheds premium loco's but Manors, Granges, Halls & modified Halls were all regular visitors as were 28's & 38's & in the final years 9F's were a regular sight. Neyland was the main shed for the region & serviced all loco's on Milford Haven turns & the oil train engines. The yard also cleaned the fish wagons on the Milford fish turns & serviced all the coaches on both the Milford & Neyland turns. I am about to start building a model of Neyland 7 it can be done in 18 ft from the 1st turnout from the single line to the buffer stops at the end of the platforms with not too much compression. The lines to Milford & Neyland were considered main lines, it is only enthusiasts who for some reason often refer to them as branch lines !!

[JimC]

Couple of things...

Earls. I'm sure I've seem it said that some of the Earls in question were GWR directors and had dropped a hint the'd like to see their names. Cook (in Swindon Steam) seems to have been of the opinion that choosing the Dukedogs to get the Earl names was Collett indulging in a little personal humour at the noble Lords' expense.

Cook also records that at one stage a further batch of 47s were requested, but Collett elected to build Castles instead, which suggests that using a Castle on fast vacuum freight (eg milk) is soundly based.