Kadee Couplings on Bachmann Mk 1 Coaches

[9C85]

2 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 

Keen Systems - http://www.keen-systems.com/Couplings.html

Ah!!!, so is it the replacement drawbar I need? That is very helpful, thanks 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, 9C85 said:

Ah!!!, so is it the replacement drawbar I need? That is very helpful, thanks 

It's worth noting that these drawbars are moulded from resin and you occasionally get one that's become a little distorted, either in manufacture or more likely from something pressing on it during transit.

 

It's fairly obvious as it will look a bit different to the others in the pack and is easy to fix. Just dunk the item in a mug of hot water and it will soften enough to allow it to be tweaked to the correct shape by hand. The material then goes stiff again as it cools.

 

John

[9C85]

Phoned Mr Keen this morning and have got some Mk1 and Mk2 drawbars on the way. Very helpful. Thanks. 

[9C85]

On 08/04/2020 at 23:18, 9C85 said:

Phoned Mr Keen this morning and have got some Mk1 and Mk2 drawbars on the way. Very helpful. Thanks. 

Well, to update.  I got some Mk1 drawbars yesterday and managed to fit them to a couple of coaches without losing the retaining springs (I have "size 11" hands, so railway modelling is probably not the best choice of hobby). The drawbars do set the Kadees at the correct height, so the delayed action uncoupling works, but when a coach is 'parked' the drawbar doesn't quite return to the centre line. This means that when I try to reconnect to the parked coach, the faces of the mating Kadees are effectively still in the open position. I know the obvious solution is to simply nudge the coupling back into place with the great hand from the sky but it is a bit annoying when my Hornby BGs behave excellently.  I contacted Mr Keen, who was very helpful, and he asked if I had removed the portion of the bogie beneath the spring, as per the instructions. I hadn't, but I then did so straight away.  This introduced more freedom of movement for the drawbars, but they still wouldn't return to the central position.  This morning, I had what is either a crazy or brilliant idea of finding the 'sweet spot ' in terms of position of the drawbar and the Kadee and gluing the drawbar in place on the centre line. I know it defeats the object of the close coupling system, but this will only be used on end coaches of fixed rakes.  It means that the NEM pocket is at the correct height and distance, which after all is what I am striving for to get the best operating potential out of my layout. 

Incidentally, on two of my Mk1s on which the new drawbars were misbehaving, I decided to try the Keen buckeye couplers that came with the drawbars. You have to fettle them a bit to install them, but this is explained in the instructions and even I (size 11 hands, remember?) managed to make a decent job of it. I have another 4 pairs of drawbars to fit if I decide to do so, but Mr Keen explained that they should only be used on close coupled fixed rakes and should NOT be used on "loose coupled" stock. I am planning on having quite a few newspaper/parcels vans to marshall on my layout, a lot of which are likely to be Bachmann Mk1 BGs, so I think I am going to have to look at the 'plasticard plus Kadee No 5' solution for those. At least I now know how to remove the drawbars without hacking them off :-)

[Dunsignalling]

The links can be helped to self-centre and performance be "fine-tuned" by a couple of operations.

 

1. Ensure the top face of the Keen drawbar is as flat as possible. Any slight distortion can be corrected by the hot water method described in my earlier post. Also remove any roughness from the edges of the loop where it will be coming into contact with the underside of the coach or the top of the bogie.

 

2. Dry-lubricate the floor by rubbing it over where the link will be moving with a soft pencil, I use a 6B but anything 4B or softer is probably OK. Whatever you do, AVOID oil, grease, Vaseline etc.

 

That may make everything centre adequately, and it tends to improve naturally with use, especially if you "work" the mechanism manually for a while before putting the vehicle into service. You will actually feel the action getting smoother. I run a number of solo and "set-end" vehicles so treated without problems. I don't use Kadees within sets anyway, preferring Roco or Hornby heads for that. 

 

If all else fails, a more certain solution might lie in the Symoba Close Coupling unit. These fit straight to the floor, after removing the original link altogether, and provide a height-adjustable NEM pocket that self-centres by the action of a built in spring. They aren't cheap, at around twice the cost of Keen drawbars, but I've had success with them on old Thompson BGs which are otherwise a right faff to fit with anything other than bogie-mounted No.5 Kadees. 

 

I recently fitted a pair of Symobas to a Bachmann GUV and, whilst it's not significantly better in operation than my Keen equipped ones, it saved a bit of time and liberated a couple of precious Bachmann springs for the spares box.  

 

John

Edited April 15, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[9C85]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Whatever you do, AVOID oil, grease, Vaseline etc.

Errrm.. I tried GT85 spray and even a dab of Carlube 2multi purpose grease. I have since removed it.

 

I then remembered that I recently bought some No2 self tapping screws  ( to fit Kadee No 5 boxes) so I thought if I was going to fix the drawbar in place, it would be a better idea to screw it rather than glue it, in case my bodge didn’t work. 

I have just drilled a pilot hole and lined things up as near as possible before fitting the screw (attached photo). I have just tried a push test with the modified Bachmann and a Hornby BG over the delayed action magnet.  Everything uncouples, moves to the required position, stays uncoupled and re-couples as it should. I also traversed the reverse curve of two adjacent large radius points with no issues. I believe the Bachmann bodge is fitted with a No 20 Kadee, so I will try with an 18 next (I have used up all my 19s for now).

It has been a faff getting this far to hopefully get things to work as I would like them to, but I suppose if I decide to change/sell things, the whole process is reversible .

Thanks for all the advice. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by 9C85
Typo

[Dunsignalling]

Thought you might be interested in the attached. I saved it from another thread on here ages ago. I've forgotten which, but thanks to whoever posted it originally.

 

The coach is a Bachmann Bulleid and the CCU is a Gutzold item, no longer made, but the Symoba one is almost identical.

 

In my experience it pays to recess them into the floor as it reduces the butchery required to the bogies. The ones on my Bulleids are actually glued to the underside of the interior.

 

John

Edited April 15, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

And here's my take on doing it. The coach is from a 5-set converted many years ago and appeared in the first published article on Taunton MRG's Bath Green Park layout (Railway Modeller, December 2002).

 

I treated them to a mechanical overhaul last year, new bogies and the Gutzold CCUs just under the van ends. Inner ends couple via Roger Keen's original black plastic CCUs and (now) Roco coupler heads (as in the other photo).

 

John

Edited April 15, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[9C85]

Thanks for this also @Dunsignalling

I just went into the garage to repeat my bodge on the other end coach of the rake and noticed that, in my exuberance, I must have overtightened the No 2 screw and split the drawbar.  I have another pack of 4 pairs so, taking your advice, I picked one as straight as possible, fine-filed the 'contact' surface, and took more time to fettle the fit to make sure the action was smooth and the drawbar returned to the centre. I think for the first couple of installs , I was just happy to get the drawbar in without losing the spring.  The results this time are more encouraging. I would say it has an 80 per cent success rate of returning to the centre. That was after a quick 5 minute fettle. I am probably a bit more confident and relaxed about getting it to work properly now. Plus I have a plan B which I can fall back on, so long as I don't go mad with the screwdriver. 

Thanks again 

[9C85]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I recently fitted a pair of Symobas a Bachmann GUV

That's answered a question I had about whether the NEM pocket on the Bachmann GUV was in the same 'wrong' position as their Mk1s 

[Dunsignalling]

And... Getting back onto the Bachmann Mk1s which are the intended topic.

 

Here's a Gutzold or Symoba CCU (I really can't tell them apart) applied to the aforementioned GUV. Again, it's recessed into the floor to avoid any clearance issues with the (unmodified)* bogies.

 

A fair bit of extra work but it was done to prove the method, which it has, admirably.

 

John 

 

* EDIT: 

Since taking the photo the other afternoon, I've re-read the notes I made of this job and the recess in the end of the bogies did need to be filed a couple of mm deeper to clear the drop arm of the CCU.

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[9C85]

I think I have finally got there with the Keen coupling.  I fettled and fidgetted so much, taking the bogie on and off so many times, that I almost stripped the thread off the securing screw hole. This led to a worsening in performance, as the drawbar was no longer held against the underside by the bogie.  I then remembered a note in the instructions about fitting 1mm plasticard shims  on the top surface of the bogie to stop the drawbar falling out if the spring becomes worn. I did this and put everything back together.  The addition of the shim meant that there was just enough thread in the boss to tighten the screw, which held the drawbar firmly between the underside of the floor and the smooth shims.  This seemed to do the trick.  Several push tests over the Kadee magnet with the Bachmann and the Hornby BG resulted in the coupling returning to the centre position pretty much every time. I will fettle no more. 

[Dunsignalling]

Sounds like you've got the hang of it, 9C85, and you may have picked the "trickier" Mk.1 for your first foray into replacing Bachmann drawbars with the Keen product.

 

I've done a good couple of dozen so far and any that did "fight back" were 57-footers, i.e. the BG or GUV, hence my experimenting with the Symoba unit on the latter.  

 

One tip with the screw no longer tightening well (been there) is to put a drop of UHU or Copydex in the hole when satisfied the fiddling is over. It'll still come undone, but only if you want it to!

 

John

Edited April 16, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[21C123]

12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Thought you might be interested in the attached. I saved it from another thread on here ages ago. I've forgotten which, but thanks to whoever posted it originally.

 

The coach is a Bachmann Bulleid and the CCU is a Gutzold item, no longer made, but the Symoba one is almost identical.

 

In my experience it pays to recess them into the floor as it reduces the butchery required to the bogies. The ones on my Bulleids are actually glued to the underside of the interior.

 

John

That looks like one of mine, I’ve fitted them to Bulleid and Thompson coaches.  the coupling unit needs recessing to clear the wheels. Works well but as you say not cheap. 
 

Roger

Edited April 16, 2020 by 21C123