Rufford Red Lion Square

[James Harrison]

6 hours ago, richard i said:

Flooding the cream is sometimes easier than trying to paint in the thin brown lines second. If you catch my drift.

richard 

 

Yes, I see. I'm happy enough with how this first one has turned out but there's definitely room for improvement. I'll try the flooding technique on the next one so I can compare.

[Edwardian]

Mikkel of this parish demonstrated the technique - pioneered I understand by  Jim Whittaker - in 2011!

 

 

When the first WNR coaches are ready, I intend to don my Brave Pants and attempt its green and ivory livery using this method 

 

[Caley Jim]

5 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Mikkel of this parish demonstrated the technique - pioneered I understand by  Jim Whittaker - in 2011!

It was first recommended to me by the late John Boyle, waaaay back in, I think, the 1970's.

 

Jim

[Edwardian]

7 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

It was first recommended to me by the late John Boyle, waaaay back in, I think, the 1970's.

 

Jim

 

Quite possibly. 

 

It's Mikkel who produced the video in 2011 I think.

 

Jim Whittaker was, I think, the man who built the beautiful GW coaches pictured in Jim Russell's books. Can't check, most books still inaccessible.  They also early '70s, IIRC.

[Mikkel]

I simply copied the technique from Russell's brief description. He attributes it to Whittaker, but of course Whittaker might have got it from someone else at the time.

 

In my experience the two main challenges with the approach are: (i) arriving at the right viscosity of the thinned paint is critical, and since you can't really store the mix you have to thin it just right every time; and (ii) the panels must have a  certain depth or the paint fill overflow, which means you have to be quite sparing with the primer on sides that have  very thin panels, e.g. finely etched sides (to avoid losing depth).

 

Yes, Whittaker's coaches in the Russell volumes are outstanding, they compare well with the best today I think.

 

[Simond]

17 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

copied the technique from Russell's brief description. He attributes it to Whittaker, but of course Whittaker might have got it from someone else at the time.

I recall a Tom Lehrer song on the same sort of theme.  Ah, yes, Agnes

 

 

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

In my experience the two main challenges with the approach are: (i) arriving at the right viscosity of the thinned paint is critical, and since you can't really store the mix you have to thin it just right every time;

 

Perhaps I should keep a saucer of milk on the work bench for reference.

 

The vital question then becomes full fat or semi-skimmed!

 

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

and (ii) the panels must have a  certain depth or the paint fill overflow, which means you have to be quite sparing with the primer on sides that have  very thin panels, e.g. finely etched sides (to avoid losing depth).

 

Hmm, mostly WNR liveried coaches will be 3D printed with some injection moulded. I think all the brass is either to be teaked or plain brown.

 

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Yes, Whittaker's coaches in the Russell volumes are outstanding, they compare well with the best today I think.

 

 

Brilliant people can make techniques that many of us struggle with work extremely well. Let's hope I don't need brilliance for this one!

 

Anyway, apologies, James, for the hi-jack, but this is a technique that I will have to tackle.

[James Harrison]

Hi-jack away; it's a technique I'm curious to try myself.  The reason why I thought to do the cream first on this carriage is because the beading isn't particularly deep (these are older secondhand/ new-old stock Ratio kits, I'm assuming that the moulds must have been renewed at some point because this particular example isn't as finely moulded as some I've bought new). 

 

What I also have though, as well as these kits, is a rake of the Hornby short clerestories (which is supposed to arrive over the weekend).  Now, if I remember rightly, the beading on those is a lot deeper, so I'll be trying the flooding technique on those. 

[CKPR]

Re. the flooding technique, I have had mixed results using this and would add a third factor to Mikkel's, namely the porosity and opacity of the base coat. Using Halfords British Racing Green the technique worked well for M&CR coaches with both etched zinc  (Trevor Charlton) and plastic (Ratio) sides but was less successful using a Halford blue (for Furness coaches) on the same types of coach side. I put this down to the thicker base coats due to the opacity of the blue paint compared to the green. If doing this again, and I've got a pile of LNWR coach kits (Ratio & MicroRail/Gibson) in stock, I'd be inclined to master my airbrush to have more control over the base coat. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by CKPR

[Caley Jim]

I use a base coat of rattle can black (it brings out a richer tone in the purple brown) and I find it takes at least three, if not four, coats of thinned white to give good coverage.

 

Jim

[James Harrison]

On the basis of 'it's not done, 'til it's done', I've been looking once more at the trackplan- this time revisiting that set-track version of Marylebone and wondering whether it still holds true for streamline/ Peco bullhead geometry. 

 

 

Well, I think it does, if I'm happy with 3' or 3'6" long trains.  For that to look convincing I'd need to eschew 'Directors', 'Sam Fays' and 'Lord Faringdons' and their matchboard sets in favour of something just a little earlier- around the 1910 period rather than the 1919-22 I originally had in mind- and that way I think I can get 4-carriage rakes in use, on the Worksop route at least.

 

Thoughts, comments and brickbats invited.   

[brumtb]

4 hours ago, James Harrison said:

On the basis of 'it's not done, 'til it's done', I've been looking once more at the trackplan- this time revisiting that set-track version of Marylebone and wondering whether it still holds true for streamline/ Peco bullhead geometry. 

 

 

Well, I think it does, if I'm happy with 3' or 3'6" long trains.  For that to look convincing I'd need to eschew 'Directors', 'Sam Fays' and 'Lord Faringdons' and their matchboard sets in favour of something just a little earlier- around the 1910 period rather than the 1919-22 I originally had in mind- and that way I think I can get 4-carriage rakes in use, on the Worksop route at least.

 

Thoughts, comments and brickbats invited.   

Perhaps a question to self ask is "will I miss 'Directors', 'Sam Fays' and 'Lord Faringdons'?  With Birmingham Bull Ring I decided to just concentrate on the local trains and trip freight workings and assume the heavier trains are elsewhere or run when I'm not operating!  That way I can run short trains with, mainly tank engines. Although I did succumb to an Improved Precedent, but then, that is smaller than some of the tank engines!  So far it has worked!

Tony

[James Harrison]

13 hours ago, brumtb said:

Perhaps a question to self ask is "will I miss 'Directors', 'Sam Fays' and 'Lord Faringdons'?  With Birmingham Bull Ring I decided to just concentrate on the local trains and trip freight workings and assume the heavier trains are elsewhere or run when I'm not operating!  That way I can run short trains with, mainly tank engines. Although I did succumb to an Improved Precedent, but then, that is smaller than some of the tank engines!  So far it has worked!

Tony

 

I have a professed weakness for inside-cylindered 4-4-0s and 4-6-0s, especially those with cut-out cabsides, so it's not surprising I have no fewer than 3 11E/ D10 class and a 'Sam Fay' (and would like a 'Glenalmond' as well).  That still only takes me up to 1913/ 1914 and if I decide I just can't do without them I'd have to ask myself just how likely it is that the larger modern rolling stock would make it off the MSLR mainline and London Extension at that time. 

 

Rufford I've already decided is a pair of branches (or a convoluted through route) between Worksop and Kirkby Bentinck, so probably >90% of the traffic is going to be local trains to Sheffield / Nottingham / Lincoln.  The remaining <10% (maybe one or two trains each way a day) being longer 'express' services to Manchester and Marylebone.  I'd expect that they'd be the only services likely to see a Director or Jersey Lily.  And I suppose they could be reduced to only a few carriages if I argue they pick up more stock en-route.  I'm reminded of the Mansfield Central- Marylebone service which loaded to all of four or five carriages north of Nottingham.   

 

Similarly with the freight traffic, by geographical coincidence (it would be the case, wouldn't it?) the heavy coal traffic of north Nottinghamshire is heading either via Mansfield (not modelled) or the ex-LDEC route (not modelled), so I don't need to worry about large mineral engines with 30 or 40 wagons hanging off the back.  What I am likely to see though are pick ups and trip workings to Sheffield, Nottingham and Lincoln. 

 

It's definitely not a bucolic branchline but at the same time it's not a trunk route either. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by James Harrison

[Edwardian]

4 hours ago, James Harrison said:

 

I have a professed weakness for inside-cylindered 4-4-0s and 4-6-0s, especially those with cut-out cabsides, so it's not surprising I have no fewer than 3 11E/ D10 class and a 'Sam Fay' (and would like a 'Glenalmond' as well).  That still only takes me up to 1913/ 1914 and if I decide I just can't do without them I'd have to ask myself just how likely it is that the larger modern rolling stock would make it off the MSLR mainline and London Extension at that time. 

 

Rufford I've already decided is a pair of branches (or a convoluted through route) between Worksop and Kirkby Bentinck, so probably >90% of the traffic is going to be local trains to Sheffield / Nottingham / Lincoln.  The remaining <10% (maybe one or two trains each way a day) being longer 'express' services to Manchester and Marylebone.  I'd expect that they'd be the only services likely to see a Director or Jersey Lily.  And I suppose they could be reduced to only a few carriages if I argue they pick up more stock en-route.  I'm reminded of the Mansfield Central- Marylebone service which loaded to all of four or five carriages north of Nottingham.   

 

Similarly with the freight traffic, by geographical coincidence (it would be the case, wouldn't it?) the heavy coal traffic of north Nottinghamshire is heading either via Mansfield (not modelled) or the ex-LDEC route (not modelled), so I don't need to worry about large mineral engines with 30 or 40 wagons hanging off the back.  What I am likely to see though are pick ups and trip workings to Sheffield, Nottingham and Lincoln. 

 

It's definitely not a bucolic branchline but at the same time it's not a trunk route either. 

 

James, what are you platform capacities?

[brumtb]

5 hours ago, James Harrison said:

 

I have a professed weakness for inside-cylindered 4-4-0s and 4-6-0s, especially those with cut-out cabsides, so it's not surprising I have no fewer than 3 11E/ D10 class and a 'Sam Fay' (and would like a 'Glenalmond' as well).  That still only takes me up to 1913/ 1914 and if I decide I just can't do without them I'd have to ask myself just how likely it is that the larger modern rolling stock would make it off the MSLR mainline and London Extension at that time. 

 

Rufford I've already decided is a pair of branches (or a convoluted through route) between Worksop and Kirkby Bentinck, so probably >90% of the traffic is going to be local trains to Sheffield / Nottingham / Lincoln.  The remaining <10% (maybe one or two trains each way a day) being longer 'express' services to Manchester and Marylebone.  I'd expect that they'd be the only services likely to see a Director or Jersey Lily.  And I suppose they could be reduced to only a few carriages if I argue they pick up more stock en-route.  I'm reminded of the Mansfield Central- Marylebone service which loaded to all of four or five carriages north of Nottingham.   

 

Similarly with the freight traffic, by geographical coincidence (it would be the case, wouldn't it?) the heavy coal traffic of north Nottinghamshire is heading either via Mansfield (not modelled) or the ex-LDEC route (not modelled), so I don't need to worry about large mineral engines with 30 or 40 wagons hanging off the back.  What I am likely to see though are pick ups and trip workings to Sheffield, Nottingham and Lincoln. 

 

It's definitely not a bucolic branchline but at the same time it's not a trunk route either. 

That sounds very workable, especially if the shortened "expresses" can justify a medium mainline loco.  I have a soft spot for Jersey Lilies myself.

Tony

[James Harrison]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

James, what are you platform capacities?

 

Platform capacity is around 36", which equates to (I think) four short Hornby clerestories/ Ratio 48' stock and a big 4-4-0.  Alternatively it's three 60'ers and the front of the loco off the end of the platform.  Now I think I can slightly extend that- there is, I think, room to move the station throat further up, possibly by up to 9 or 10"- or I could just slightly extend the platform roads (the track plan being 10" long in a 12" room), but then that eats into the space for the station concourse and building. 

 

The appeal of this latest plan is that it appears to give a nice visual balance between length of platform, length of station throat, and length of plain unencumbered mainline.  My earlier efforts seemed to have either long platforms and a compressed throat or vice versa. 

[Edwardian]

11 minutes ago, James Harrison said:

 

Platform capacity is around 36", which equates to (I think) four short Hornby clerestories/ Ratio 48' stock and a big 4-4-0.  Alternatively it's three 60'ers and the front of the loco off the end of the platform.  Now I think I can slightly extend that- there is, I think, room to move the station throat further up, possibly by up to 9 or 10"- or I could just slightly extend the platform roads (the track plan being 10" long in a 12" room), but then that eats into the space for the station concourse and building. 

 

The appeal of this latest plan is that it appears to give a nice visual balance between length of platform, length of station throat, and length of plain unencumbered mainline.  My earlier efforts seemed to have either long platforms and a compressed throat or vice versa. 

 

48' coach = 192mm over the body, but over the buffers assuming, say, buffers of 18", that's 204mm, so a 4-coach train is up to 816mm long.

 

36" = 914mm

 

That leaves 98mm for a loco (!) unless the loco can over-hang the platform, which might not be possible in the case of a terminus.

 

To put things into perspective, I am hoping to have a 4'6" platform at Castle Aching, though most trains using the station will be under 3'.

 

 

[James Harrison]

With a little bit of fiddling about I've managed to get the Worksop route into more of a smooth curve, which has saved me somewhere around 6" at the RH end.  As drawn above, from about 3" off the outer rail on the RH curve to the stops is 11', so my station building would have been almost faceplanting the wall (and I don't want to do that). 

 

So with that 6" I've brought back, I've lengthened my platform roads by 2" and brought the station building 4" back into the room.  But a thought also presents itself- the 36" figure I stated previous was a straight line, whilst the platform roads are partly curved.  For instance one platform road measures 36" straight, however the actual rail length is more like 39" (actually 41" after my readjustment).  The other platform I could reasonably make slightly longer, because the only thing stopping are the cattle pens/ loading dock/ loco stabling.  

 

It would certainly add to the operating interest if I arranged matters so that the express services had to arrive and depart from a specific platform.    

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, James Harrison said:

With a little bit of fiddling about I've managed to get the Worksop route into more of a smooth curve, which has saved me somewhere around 6" at the RH end.  As drawn above, from about 3" off the outer rail on the RH curve to the stops is 11', so my station building would have been almost faceplanting the wall (and I don't want to do that). 

 

So with that 6" I've brought back, I've lengthened my platform roads by 2" and brought the station building 4" back into the room.  But a thought also presents itself- the 36" figure I stated previous was a straight line, whilst the platform roads are partly curved.  For instance one platform road measures 36" straight, however the actual rail length is more like 39" (actually 41" after my readjustment).  The other platform I could reasonably make slightly longer, because the only thing stopping are the cattle pens/ loading dock/ loco stabling.  

 

It would certainly add to the operating interest if I arranged matters so that the express services had to arrive and depart from a specific platform.    

 

Then I would suggest you take your 41" platform and use it for 4-coach sets hauled, say, by passenger tanks or smaller, older, 4-4-0s, to form your regular, several times a day, services

 

Then I would try to make the longer platform as long as possible to see what sort of through train or special you could get away with.

 

The regular services could use either platform, but anything longer just uses the longest. 

[James Harrison]

I can get a 47" platform in as my longest.  That actually tallies up quite nicely with my longest pair of storage roads, which are 49" and 49.5", and they would clearly be the arbiter of maximum workable train length.

 

Now that's just shy of 300' of train, so my set of Barnums (180' overall) can come back into play, as can the bigger locos. 

 

I think however on balance I would want to retain the pre-WWI (say circa 1910 - 1912) period that we've been discussing recently.  The reason being that the Rufford Mythos holds that the Mansfield route was a dead-end branch until the opening of the Mansfield Railway in 1917, and then remained single track for the last few miles into Rufford until the mid-1920s.  (Also I do quite like the brown and cream carriage livery I've been playing with, and I have just about convinced myself that it could have hung around as late as 1913 or 14, depending how often the GC took their carriages in for heavy overhaul.  I can't say I've seen photographs of Sam Fays or Directors with brown and cream stock, but that's not to say it didn't happen). 

 

Although not shown on my plans so far, I'm not intending to operate the Mansfield route as a simple shuttle to Cremorne & Pittance and back, instead what I have in mind is a (probably curved) secondary storage yard- literally just enough track to accept a Mansfield-bound working and despatch another back to Rufford.  This is obviously going to be quite constricted in length as it will quite quickly meet Red Lion Square.  Not an issue if all that goes up and down that branch are some short carriages and locos, quite a different thing however if I start sending longer rolling stock down there.  So you see that will better suit the pre-1917 working arrangements than an extended 1920-something Marylebone to Mansfield service. 

[richard i]

About every 7 years for a repaint normally. But on that logic the last French grey stock would still be around in 1911!
richard 

[James Harrison]

3 hours ago, richard i said:

About every 7 years for a repaint normally. But on that logic the last French grey stock would still be around in 1911!
richard 

 

Yes, as you say, by that logic there'd still be some French grey stock lingering around. 

 

I haven't yet made an exhaustive trawl through my library to find the latest photograph with brown and cream stock, but we know that the transition took at least two years (there's that famous film of 1910 showing a GCR express still mostly in two-tone livery) and there's only four years between the change and introduction of the Sam Fays (November 1908- December 1912) and less than five years between change and introduction of the Directors (August 1913).  That still seems an awful long time though- but then look at how long it can take today to relivery the entire stock of a TOC when a franchise changes. 

 

And, unless the carriage and wagon department were given the prior warning that a change was planned, they would presumably have had a large stock of cream and brown pigments to hand in November '08 and that would presumably have been used up rather than discarded.  So I could see repaints in brown and cream ongoing into '09 and possibly even into '10, just to use up existing pigment stocks before a full change over into teak.  

 

When is that semi-mythical GCR carriage book due for publication?   

[James Harrison]

Well, the first of the chocolate and cream carriages is finished to the point that it can be used.  Of course, it does need the door handles picking out, transfers and varnishing still so easily anywhere between a week and three months until it's completely finished, given my current 'spoons' to get things over the line. 

 

 

 

 

[richard i]

A good generic gcr clearstory. Looking forward to its completion.

richard 

[James Harrison]

I've pushed on a little further with the old Ratio carriage that was intended to be my first foray into the pre-1910 scene.

You may recall that this stalled because the sides were a bit warped.  I've found that by assembling the body and firmly gluing the roof down, this has all straightened back up.  The problem now of course is having had to do that, getting an interior fitted.  Also slightly complicated by my fitting strips of plastic 'L' section inside the body to try to straighten it out. 

 

It's a problem that I think I can look at another time. 

 

Other news, I've started slowly buying up the medium radius bullhead points I'll need for the Marylebone-esque version of the trackplan.  At the rate of maybe one or two a month, I'm hoping that by the time I've bought what I need, Peco will have announced a bullhead three-way point.  Even if then does need the better part of a decade to actually make it to production.  I'm expecting that for the curved points, I'll be able to take advantage of the flexible nature of the long radius bullhead turnouts.