Deliberately Old-Fashioned 0 Scale - Chapter 1

[Nearholmer]

I don't know a lot about French tinplate, but from what I can work out both of the mass-market makers, JdeP and Hornby, had a strange attitude to scale.

 

The JdeP system seems to have had some logic, in that they had a 'small' range, similar to 027 in the USA, and a 'large' range, which was nearer to scale; the Hornby bogie wagons seem totally random.

 

Both makers seem to have made their carriages and some of their electric locos very low, too, possibly In an attempt to make them look longer than they really are.

 

It's a slight pity, because I like pre-TGV French trains, and one thing that they are compared to UK ones is BIG.

 

I still dream of creating a tinplate layout that would allow the entire routes of the Golden Arrow, Night Ferry, and Riviera Blue Train to be represented as a series of snapshots ......... that last bit, along the Mediterranean coast, all rocky inlets and spiky palm trees, and the window wound down so that you can lean out and catch that smell of pine trees and sea would be marvellous, even if it was only ten feet of plywood and plaster!

 

Kevin

Edited July 17, 2017 by Nearholmer

[brianusa]

Kev, you could almost be referring to the GW in Cornwall with your description, even down to the palm trees.  You'd just have to pretend that the Channel was the Med!

 

Brian.

[Simond]

I love the Cornish riviera, but the Med just smells different... it's sweeter, warmer...

[Northroader]

The only French tinplate I've come across are those opens Hornby used to knockout. The standard British open but with a large "NORD" across the side like a private owner coal wagon. Somebody in Liverpool must have thought they were a good idea. Then there's the 442 which gets used for Royal Scots and the like, but which has a very Nord cab profile. There was a little bit at the M.K. show, but it would be hard to capture the look of the trains, scenery and buildings would be easier. Possibly adapt some ETS or Pola Maxi with rebodies and repaints, but then I gather that is something eschewed by coarsescale people?

I got back from a walk today with three ETS coaches off eBay waiting, as I didn't find anything to waste my substance on at M.K. There's a thread needed for those really - one of these days..

I know what you mean about the ambiance of Southern France. When the kids were small, we hired a caravan on a site near St. Raphael. Something like 10am from Victoria, off at Dover and boat to Calais, train to Paris Nord (231K for starts) across to Lyon, and on to a couchette for an overnight trip. Somewhere past Marseilles in the morning stand in the corridor with the window down. The warmth, the sun, the bright colours, totally different feel to end the journey.

[Nearholmer]

Yep, that's the last bit I was thinking of.

 

The journey is very different now. We went to St Raphael last year, leaving St Pancras at c1200, and getting there c2100. It's a heap easier in some ways, but lacks the romance of travel, and you can't lean out of the window of a TGV.

 

The Hornby Atlantic loco is their idea of a Nord Pacific, and, leaving aside a pair of driving wheels, is rather nice. JeP produced the same thing as a 4-4-2 (4-4-0?) in direct competition, and also made it as an actual Pacific, which is exceedingly nice, but seems quite rare.

 

For the part of the journey on the PLM, JeP provided a much-truncated representation of one of the 1938 mega-diesels. Oh, to have seen, and heard, them in action! They hauled enormously long trains, of very heavy stock, so it must have been like a battle-cruiser thundering along. 4400hp, and as long as one and a half cricket pitches. They took a train from Paris to Menton, which previously required the services of four huge steamers (I think that was two portions, each with an engine change half way).

 

You will see below that the JeP doesn't quite capture the majesty of the real thing!

Edited July 18, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Metropolitan H]

And, for Mr Holmes, a picture of his engine performing valuable service.

Kevin,

 

Thanks for that. I gather things went well, I look forward to a full report when we meet.

 

Flying Scotsman to Carlisle and back to York was very good - as was the trip on the Tyne valley line over to Carlisle from Newcastle this morning. Off to the West Country tomorrow - so not available till Thursday.

 

Regards

Chris H

[Donw]

The only French tinplate I've come across are those opens Hornby used to knockout. The standard British open but with a large "NORD" across the side like a private owner coal wagon. Somebody in Liverpool must have thought they were a good idea. Then there's the 442 which gets used for Royal Scots and the like, but which has a very Nord cab profile. There was a little bit at the M.K. show, but it would be hard to capture the look of the trains, scenery and buildings would be easier. Possibly adapt some ETS or Pola Maxi with rebodies and repaints, but then I gather that is something eschewed by coarsescale people?

I got back from a walk today with three ETS coaches off eBay waiting, as I didn't find anything to waste my substance on at M.K. There's a thread needed for those really - one of these days..

I know what you mean about the ambiance of Southern France. When the kids were small, we hired a caravan on a site near St. Raphael. Something like 10am from Victoria, off at Dover and boat to Calais, train to Paris Nord (231K for starts) across to Lyon, and on to a couchette for an overnight trip. Somewhere past Marseilles in the morning stand in the corridor with the window down. The warmth, the sun, the bright colours, totally different feel to end the journey.

 

As a boy I went on a school trip to Lake Como similar trip except we through France to Basle overnight. Breakfast on the train at Basle then up the St Gothard pass to Lugano. Once over the pass there was a distinct difference in the light and feel Mediterranean despite being still in the mountains. There followed a hair raising coach trip to Menaggio narrow roads sharp bends and single track tunnels the driver using the horn all the way.

Don 

[Nearholmer]

On tour again earlier this evening, in the form of a visit to a garden railway overlooking a field, as the sun went down.

 

Birlstone shed provided its tattiest loco, the well-worn BL Compound, plus its tattiest coaches, the 'working' rake of BL blood and custard.

 

First, the BL advert telling us all how terrific the loco is, all of which I have to say is true. £8/18/- in 1956 inflates to c£215 today, so it wasn't a cheap toy, but it has held its value.

 

I wonder which of today's r-t-r locos in the relevant price bracket is robust enough to be still clattering along in sixty years time?

 

Then a picture of it in action.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

On tour again earlier this evening, in the form of a visit to a garden railway overlooking a field, as the sun went down.

 

Birlstone shed provided its tattiest loco, the well-worn BL Compound, plus its tattiest coaches, the 'working' rake of BL blood and custard.

 

First, the BL advert telling us all how terrific the loco is, all of which I have to say is true. £8/18/- in 1956 inflates to c£215 today, so it wasn't a cheap toy, but it has held its value.

 

I wonder which of today's r-t-r locos in the relevant price bracket is robust enough to be still clattering along in sixty years time?

 

Then a picture of it in action.

 

What a perfect way to spend a summer's evening in the garden.

[Simond]

A rough rule of thumb for valuation is to double it every ten years, by which reckoning, it would be a bit more expensive in its day.

 

Say £9 in 1957. 18, 36, 72, 144, 288, which I think gives £576 in today's money.

 

It's not perfect of course, but some years ago, when first married, we rented the "Old Stationmaster's House", in Hythe, which the owner eventually offered for sale. I bought a copy of The Hythe & Sandgate Railway, which gave the year of construction, and whilst I forget the actual numbers now (some 23 years on) the cost, and the rule above, was reasonably in the right range.

 

Best

Simon

[Nearholmer]

Simon,

 

I used a reputable on-line inflation index (one based on retail prices), but I think you are right that it has undershot in this case.

 

Using the best index available, the cover price of the Railway Modeller, it runs out to £522, which is both closer to Your rule of thumb, and closer to what I think reality was, in that BL Locos, even simple ones like this, were quite a way outside of the range of Mr Average's disposable income.

 

Secondhand (well probably third of fourth) value is a different topic, because that is about markets, not inflation, and with common old coarse trains condition is everything ........ my compound was cheap, because it is tatty! Runs like a dream, though.

 

Kevin

 

PS: using another reputable index, one based on earnings, rather than prices, the figure runs out to £488.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Donw]

You only have to remember the average wage in 1955 was a little over £9 a week to realise the BL compound was an expensive item. Additionally in those days very little was left after buying essentials and paying your rent. 

Don

[Simond]

Yes, for something like this, it's probably better to use an earnings index

 

I suspect this is not the most reliable source, but something like £7.50 a week...

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4146550/Why-1957-Britain-s-happiest-year.html

 

£7.50 is a little less than £400 per year, which is roughly 1/67.5 of today's average. Thus you might hope to buy a new one for £602, 8 shillings and nine old pence.

 

Which is somewhat more than a modern state-of-the-art RTR tank loco, and a bit less than an RTR tender loco I guess.

 

Best

Simon

[Nearholmer]

Whatever the exact equivalent, and it seems to be c£500 to c£600, it was a lot of money for Mr Average. My father held that BL was for "Doctors and Stockbrokers", and he was as probably right. We had one, a 2-6-4T, handed down by an uncle, and I cannot conceive how he had it, possibly a hand-down from my Grandfather's employer, who was well off enough to employ him full-time as a gardener, so presumably wasn't feeling the pinch!

 

Lesson in this is that, despite all rumours to the contrary, 99% of toy trains, even good ones, loose value; they aren't 'an investment', because even a mint BL compound would barely fetch a similar sum these days (don't bother checking eBay, because that is inhabited by dealers who are quite content not to sell things!).

 

Kevin

[Simond]

I suspect some of the dealers are very happy to be associated with inflated prices. Who was it said "it's a moral sin to let a sucker keep his cash"?

 

You can only sell it once, best to wait for a sucker...

[Nearholmer]

My feeling is that they leave unsold stuff on eBay at inflated 'buy it now' prices, in order to set a benchmark or expectation.

 

K

[Simond]

Precisely my understanding.

 

S

[brianusa]

I wish they wouldn't!

 

B.

[Northroader]

I get outbid on everything else!

[Nearholmer]

Not saying it's a case of the above, in fact it's a case of fresh air, but there is what is described as "a very nice empty box" for sale on eBay, for £435, currently, from a German dealer specialising in Maerklin.

 

Well, it truly is a nice box, with Mearklin label, should you want one ........

 

Kevin

[Simond]

Ah, if it's been opened, the air won't be original...

 

S

[Guest Isambarduk]

Empty box?  Actually, it does make sense ...

 

One day I must get around to making an inventory of the extensive Tri-ang TT locos and rolling stock that I have from when my brother and I were teenagers.  It's 95% in its original boxes and a friend of mine, who knows all about buying and selling model railway locos and stock on eBay, said that I should definitely sell the boxes separately as they were worth a lot in their own right, more than when combined with the item of stock.  He wasn't so sure about all the Kitmaster coaches still unmade and in their boxes, covered in cellophane wrapping; he thought that they might be best left untouched.

 

He often buys a lot and separates out the items, redescribes them more accurately and more fully with better photographs, and then resells them, sometimes making as much on an individual item as he paid for the whole lot. 

 

Of course, it's mostly 4mm, so means very little to me, but he did once show me a part-built 7mm scale Super D complete with Slater's wheels that he had just won.  He took better photos of the parts of the kit, the part-built loco body and of the wheels, he then redescribed them and put them on eBay again as two lots (ie the loco and the wheels as separate lots).  Both items sold and he got more for the wheels alone than for the whole lot that he had bought.  This carry-on all takes (valuable modelling) time of course ...

 

David

[woodenhead]

One day I must get around to making an inventory of the extensive Tri-ang TT locos and rolling stock that I have from when my brother and I were teenagers.  It's 95% in its original boxes and a friend of mine, who knows all about buying and selling model railway locos and stock on eBay, said that I should definitely sell the boxes separately as they were worth a lot in their own right, more than when combined with the item of stock.  

 

 

Brings a whole new meaning to 'split from box' deals - who would have thought an empty box is worth more on it's own than with it's contents inside.  I always imagined 'in original packaging' was the holy grail of second hand collectibles.

[Nearholmer]

Depends who you are: dealers of the more eagle-eyed kind will split lots mercilessly to maximise income. I've seen 1930s Hornby ocos split from the tender they've been married to for eighty years, on the basis that Hornsby originally stocked the two as separate items in separate boxes.

 

K

[Nearholmer]

Look what I found, acting as gate guardian at the local museum, while construction of its new home proceeds.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Nearholmer