Deliberately Old-Fashioned 0 Scale - Chapter 1

[Annie]

I have wondered about doing some lithos based on old 19th century arc roof coaches to convert some of the damaged Hornby 4 wheelers I've got into useful coaches again.  Then their small size wouldn't be so much of a problem anymore.  They seem to look Ok with your Terrier because a Terrier is such a small locomotive to start with.

[boxerbayrailway]

I have a large collection of old Model Railway News magazines,  and love looking through all the O scale layouts and models that were built back in the day.  Although I model

"finescale",  I do appreciate the "Old Fashioned" world of O scale.  I often wonder where these models are today,  if they still exist,  I hope so.  Thought I'd share 

a couple photos from J.F. Vaux's Caledonian layout,  from 1960.   Some of his models where under construction in 1920 !   I believe he stated that his coaches were adapted from

Marklin tinplate,  with new roofs and details made from scratch,  a lot of skill and persistence was needed when not much was available.

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2018 by boxerbayrailway

[Nearholmer]

Looks like quite some layout. I’ve got a 1930s magazine with an article about it somewhere.

 

Now, Part The Next, in the hugely greeted with merely passing interest series ‘Comparative 6-Wheelers’, being a picture that I’ve just stolen from ebay of an Exley one.

 

Did any coach like this exist in reality? It’s like Stove van for passengers.

[Annie]

I've got a badly repainted and down on its luck Southern one, but when it came to me someone had put it on Hornby bogies which actually looked a whole lot more sensible despite the coach's short length.  They always struck me as being a figment of Exley's imagination rather than being based on a prototype.  

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Annie

[Simond]

Felix,

 

“A lot of skill and persistence was needed when not much was available.”

 

Yes, and, I suspect, for a model like that, a largish private income!

 

 

Best

Simon

[Nearholmer]

It’s always interesting trying to work out from those old articles what sort of person was behind the layout, and some of the whopper-layouts were certainly the toys of the considerably well-off (G P Keen wasn’t exactly strapped, for instance), but the old idea that 0 gauge in “the old days” was solely for such people seems, rather to my surprise, not to be true.

 

Quite a few of the layouts are more modest, using boxrooms, sheds, and the back garden, in spaces that now would really only be taken seriously for 00, and the excuse of ‘building it for my son’ appears in the very first model railway magazine in 1909! Guys were very happy with not much more than a circuit of track and few sidings, busily scratchbuilding and hacking about r-t-r tinplate locos and stock which, if they had survived intact, would now be worth small fortunes.

 

One of my favourites is a modest pre-WW1 layout built by an ordinary working man, who says that he is of limited means and has barely any tools (a penknife and a small saw). He created a really good layout, quite small, but very detailed, making as much as possible from cardboard and scrap wood, including coaches that would find a home on any railway. Then there are layouts built in billets by young army officers posted to India, buying bits by mail order and scratchbuilding the rest ..... fences on one layout made from “the large matchsticks provided on P&O steam ships”, the equivalent of those wooden coffee stirrers we use now.

 

The Cardean shown in one of the photos in the article shown by Boxer, by the way, was probably a home-motorised one, made from the promotional item that the Caledonian Railway sold through their bookstalls and mail order. They had zillions of them made (I think by Carette, through an arrangement with BL, but don’t take that as gospel), and coaches, and they were both cheap and very good, so a lot of modellers fitted better clockwork mechanisms and proper wheels to the locos and proper bogies/wheels to the coaches. There’s a rare unmolested one in the Brighton toy museum, and I have a dim recollection that it might actually be 1/48, rather than 1/43.5 scale.

 

Kevin

Edited February 22, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

Looks like quite some layout. I’ve got a 1930s magazine with an article about it somewhere.

 

Now, Part The Next, in the hugely greeted with merely passing interest series ‘Comparative 6-Wheelers’, being a picture that I’ve just stolen from ebay of an Exley one.

 

Did any coach like this exist in reality? It’s like Stove van for passengers.

 

I've got a badly repainted and down on its luck Southern one, but when it came to me someone had put it on Hornby bogies which actually looked a whole lot more sensible despite the coach's short length.  They always struck me as being a figment of Exley's imagination rather than being based on a prototype.  

 

 

 

 

In the context of 4mm scale, I have never, never, understood the draw that Exleys had.  Any resemblance to the prototype being purely coincidental.  Many a past layout article have I seen where Exleys are proudly featured, to my mind demonstrating only how relatively hard up people were for appropriate coaching stock in those days; a situation that still obtains in the present RTR market.

 

So, no, you will not find a Stannier 6-wheel passenger coach in Real Life.

 

But, does that matter? 

 

In the context of Coarse O Gauge, where I think you should embrace the freedom that not being shackled to the wheel of ever greater prototype fidelity gives you, that coach makes perfect sense.  Well, it does to me, anyway.

 

Further, it works well, and surprisingly so, as a short bogie coach. 

 

I'd run 'em both, no problem.

[Nearholmer]

I’m not into Exley coaches, partly because they are “highly sought after”, which is dealer-talk for eye wateringly costly.

 

They are very popular in old-0, and at least some of them are fairly accurate models, I think the GWR and LMS ones particularly. They run absolutely beautifully, being heavy and on good bogies with steel wheels with the finest profile that ‘coarse’ permits (it’s quite hard to tell at first glimpse that they aren’t finescale profile). And the finish is superb.

 

They are quite fragile, though, because they are what would now be called ‘composite kits’, made from several materials that expand, contract and age at different rates, so unless cosseted they have a tendency to very-slowly return to kit form, or at least exhibit cracking through the paintwork at the interfaces. And, the window glass (which is glass) easily slips out of the securing wires and gets lost inside the coach, or broken.

 

The single one I do have is in SR 1940s livery, and I think it’s meant to be a Maunsell coach, but it has something of the Bulleid about it. IIRC the LNER ones ate the least common and are LMS vehicles painted tan colour.

[Annie]

Yes my one was in the process of falling apart when I got it so I'm going to clean everything up and reassemble it again using some decent modern glues.  I'd like to strip the bad over painting job off it too and paint it properly.  I've got some very old aluminium bogie castings that came in a box of odd bits so I might use those instead of the Hornby ones as they are a bit more size appropriate for the length of the coach.  As a 'shortie' coach it should work well for my intended small railway and it being a tinplate and coarse scale line its doubtful prototype fidelity won't matter in the slightest.  

[boxerbayrailway]

Felix,

Yes, and, I suspect, for a model like that, a largish private income!

Best

Simon

 

According to the article,  apart from 2 locos,  all were home made from drawings which appeared in MRN over the years, and his goods stock was also home made from glider three-ply.   

I do agree that those Marklin / Bassett Lowke coaches must have cost a bit      Wheels were coarse scale turned down,  and coach wheels turned up out of bronze bar on a borrowed capstan !

[GRASinBothell]

Regarding the question of whether any coaches like that existed, remember that the standard way of repairing panelled coaches was steel flush panelling to cover the deteriorating woodwork. While most pictures I've seen have only covered part of the coach, it's not impossible that some may have had the entire side sheeted in this way.

So, while none were built like that, it's not entirely impossible for one or two to have ended up not looking too dissimilar.

Well, that would be my excuse if I had one...

 

Gordon

[Marly51]

I use a good quality waterproof PVA to attach my lithos and it seems to have lasted the distance Ok.  I don't varnish the lithos before fitting them, but I do give them several coats afterwards paying particular attention to corners and edges.  I stripped down a sad old coach I'd bought once that'd had lithos attached with epoxy resin, but the epoxy hadn't been smoothed out properly leaving all kinds of ridges and lumps.  It took some cleaning up before I fitted it up with a Midland brake third litho of my own devising using good quality PVA.  I don't know if epoxy could be made to work, but after what I saw with that old coach I'm not game to try it.

I did sell some of my coach lithos to New Zealand HRCA members and one chap asked me to print them on A4 sticky label sheets instead of photo paper and he seemed to be quite happy with the result.  I don't know how long they might have stayed in place though.  I lost a lot of my litho files in a hard drive crash, but I still have this one which I used to give away as a freebee.  From memory if you print it to fit an A4 page it will be the right size.

 

What a pity you lost the artwork for your litho artwork. I have a fondness for the the old tinplate Hornby O gauge clockwork trains and buildings and wondered about recreating some of the building artwork to build in card as a fun project? I have already seen the backscenes which one company is producing and fits perfectly with the art style of the tinplate models.

 

Enjoying your posts as well as those of 'Nearhomer'.

 

Marlyn

 

PS Even when a hard drive crashes, your files might still be retrieveable if you get an IT savvy person to check for you. I joined a trust in the 1990s who had a major crash, hadn't done regular backups on any of their machines and the IT guy managed to transfer a bulk of files on to the new set up for us.

[Annie]

Thanks Marlyn    At the time I did get an IT person to look at extracting files for me, but whatever the hard drive had done itself all the files were completely unreadable.  Needless to say I was very disappointed

 

BUT, just the other week I discovered a solitary LSWR coach side hiding in a corner in my not much used and largely ignored Photomucket account.  I also found some Midland variations that were the first ones that I ever did.  From the style of my LSWR litho it's plain that I was much inspired by a Carrette LSWR coach I saw in a friend's collection.  From this solitary coach side file it's not so difficult to create just about any other variety of LSWR coach you care to name which is exactly what I did when I was doing my little cottage industry effort selling coach lithos.  The one litho that's definitely gone for good is the one I did for the LSWR steam railmotor which is a real pity because I think that was the about best one I ever did. (le sigh).

 

This piece of litho artwork is entirely free to use by the way.  Just don't try selling it or claiming its your own work or I'll be very annoyed and be obliged to get the voodoo dollies and sewing needles out.

 

 

I did used to have artwork for coach ends, but that seems to have gone for good too unfortunately.  My current plan is make individual ends from card with a handcut beading overlay made from thin card. or thickish paper.  I think I'd end up with a much better fit that way as artwork for the ends was always hard to get right and to fit right on old down on their luck coaches bodies that'd been knocked around a bit during the course of their long lives.  I'd like to have a go with wooden bodies too which is what I did with the LSWR milk van I built.  Someone I saw on ebay is offering repro Leeds wooden bodies and I wouldn't mind getting the 12 inch coach one to have a play with.

I've got some artwork I did for coaches for my proposed Foxwater Light Railway, but I don't want to clutter up Kevin's thread with my own imaginative devisings.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Annie

[Nearholmer]

Annie

 

That LSWR coach is highly likeable, and since the drift of any pre-groupery on my layout seems to be in a south western direction, I’d like to give it a try. Do you have a high-res version of it? I ask because the version above looks quite low-res on my iPad screen.

 

The LSWR is getting spoilt for choice in “modern tinplate”, with an M7 and one of the Terriers that they bought having been produced recently, and the Adams 4-4-2T due very soon. The LBSCR is really my favourite, but there isn’t the locomotive variety available ....... mind you, who knows what might be round the corner? I was amazed when the Adams 4-4-2T was unveiled.

 

Kevin

[Annie]

Unfortunately that's all I've got Kevin.  It might have been purely a sample piece rather than my good copy artwork which is what was lost, - but could it be made better by fiddling about with it in graphics software.  I'll have a look at it later.  I'm very sleepy and a bit second hand today so I won't try to do anything now.

 

I will be needing some LSWR coaches myself so I do have an incentive for doing my best to make these coach sides look reasonable.

[Nearholmer]

Many thanks.

 

Photo below is stolen from WJ Vintage newsletter, but I don’t think anyone will mind, this being sort of free adverstising.

 

It is the ‘approval’ sample, and I know that a fair few tweaks have been made to the production drawings.

[Annie]

This might be of interest Kevin.  It's entirely untested and may need adjusting, but it's an idea I'm working on for my Foxwater Light Railway.

 

 

 

Nice Adams Radial by the way.  If I suddenly win the lottery I wouldn't mind one of those at all.

[Edwardian]

Many thanks.

 

Photo below is stolen from WJ Vintage newsletter, but I don’t think anyone will mind, this being sort of free adverstising.

 

It is the ‘approval’ sample, and I know that a fair few tweaks have been made to the production drawings.

 

Very nice, though another "as-preserved" (it shouldn't have the bunker rails and extended water filler while still in Adams livery)

[Marly51]

Unfortunately that's all I've got Kevin. It might have been purely a sample piece rather than my good copy artwork which is what was lost, - but could it be made better by fiddling about with it in graphics software. I'll have a look at it later. I'm very sleepy and a bit second hand today so I won't try to do anything now.

 

I will be needing some LSWR coaches myself so I do have an incentive for doing my best to make these coach sides look reasonable.

Good luck with any new artwork Annie. I wouldn’t dream of using your artwork for anything other than a personal project with due credit to yourself as originator! I have too many projects on the go at present so any attempt to model in 0 scale won’t be for quite a while.

 

Marlyn

Edited February 23, 2018 by Marly51

[Marly51]

Annie

That LSWR coach is highly likeable, and since the drift of any pre-groupery on my layout seems to be in a south western direction, I’d like to give it a try. Do you have a high-res version of it? I ask because the version above looks quite low-res on my iPad screen.

The LSWR is getting spoilt for choice in “modern tinplate”, with an M7 and one of the Terriers that they bought having been produced recently, and the Adams 4-4-2T due very soon. The LBSCR is really my favourite, but there isn’t the locomotive variety available ....... mind you, who knows what might be round the corner? I was amazed when the Adams 4-4-2T was unveiled.

Kevin

Didn’t realise there are locomotives and rolling stock being made in ‘modern tinplate’? Still working my way through interesting posts on the Forum and definitely enjoying this thread!

 

Marlyn

[Nearholmer]

As I said, Edwardian, this was an approval sample. I didn’t critique the LSWR one, focusing on the SR version, but I do know that the cab roof radius, and the chimney and dome height were discussed.

 

These “modern tinplate” things are commissioned in small numbers compared with even with r-t-r 00, and the guys who commission them are all very good at getting the approval samples in front of as many people as possible, and responding to feedback; it’s a very collective process. It’s all quite drawn-out, especially for big locos, of which there lots of variant versions, and the approval samples might be picked-over by interested parties at maybe twenty sessions of HRCA, BL Society, and “ecumenical” groups. And, it gives plenty of notice, so that people can start saving up!

 

It will be interesting to see if this one emerges with the ‘correct’ bunker arrangement. If it doesn’t, it will suggest that either the potential customers don’t know or don’t care, or that the actually want what they’ve seen on the Bluebell.

[Edwardian]

As I said, Edwardian, this was an approval sample. I didn’t critique the LSWR one, focusing on the SR version, but I do know that the cab roof radius, and the chimney and dome height were discussed.

 

These “modern tinplate” things are commissioned in small numbers compared with even with r-t-r 00, and the guys who commission them are all very good at getting the approval samples in front of as many people as possible, and responding to feedback; it’s a very collective process. It’s all quite drawn-out, especially for big locos, of which there lots of variant versions, and the approval samples might be picked-over by interested parties at maybe twenty sessions of HRCA, BL Society, and “ecumenical” groups. And, it gives plenty of notice, so that people can start saving up!

 

It will be interesting to see if this one emerges with the ‘correct’ bunker arrangement. If it doesn’t, it will suggest that either the potential customers don’t know or don’t care, or that the actually want what they’ve seen on the Bluebell.

 

Well, since we're at this, should only have one slide rod.

 

This was in general a Southern mod.  Contrary to popular belief, there were a few so fitted in SW days, can't remember why off hand.

[Nearholmer]

Since Marley has mentioned not being aware of “modern tinplate”, a quick rundown of main current suppliers:

 

- Ace Trains of London (easily confused with an 0 scale kit maker called Ace), the major, if such a word befits a niche market, supplier. Commission either from ETS or factories in China, and have bought to market a bewildering array of things over the past 20+ years;

 

- ETS a Czech manufacturer who serves markets across Europe both directly and as a manufacturer on behalf of other brands. They only have a few (3?) British Locos in their own catalogue, but are behind most of the smaller British locos that are made; and,

 

- W J Vintage and Raylo, both ‘one man bands’, who collaborate to commission from ETS, focusing on the small and unusual;

 

- Merkur, a Czech toy-maker which serves mainly the Czech market (tinplate 0 on two rail is a big thing in the Czech Republic), but has been persuaded by French and German enthusiasts to produce some very good models for them. They have one (very strange) British loco in their catalogue, and are the major supplier of modern tinplate track to the U.K., through their agent here.

 

All of the above have websites, but, as might be expected in such a corner of the hobby, they tend towards the quirky in their design ...... you have to hunt around a bit to find everything!

 

Darstaed were very busy in this market until recently, but seem to have decided that their future is in finescale. Another fairly recent supplier was Corgi Bassett-Lowke (a revival of the old name, but not the old firm), which came to be owned by (modern) Hornby, who shut it down.

 

There are also much smaller suppliers, producing new tinplate wagons in ‘cottage industry’ quantities, as well as a lots of suppliers of old-style bits and kits, although that side of things seems to be contracting as the specialists become ever-less-youthful.

 

Hope that is useful, Kevin

Edited February 24, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Marly51]

Thanks Kevin - still new to the current world of railway modelling and good to learn more about its history and suppliers. I was looking through the online Meccano Magazine Archive a while ago, and found some interesting articles about all aspects of the hobby. Sadly my brother sold his Hornby 0 Gauge clockwork train collection and all his Meccano Magazines when he was a teenager. We had masses of track which we laid out in the garden every summer, using bricks to create viaducts!

 

Marlyn

Edited February 24, 2018 by Marly51

[Nearholmer]

It’s been a while since we had a travelogue, so here are a few from Northants and Rutland 0 Gauge Group today.

 

Sublime. A scratchbuilt tinplate LCDR R1 Class, and SECR 3-set, built probably c60years ago.

 

Ridiculous. A Chad Valley train of similar vintage, having its first ever run! This set, boxed with track etc, was found ‘new old stock’ in a toy shop in 1980, already 20+ years old, and the owner today decided that it was about time he ran it, in celebration of one exactly the same that he had as a boy.

 

Building Metroland in Bakelite. It really needs a small thermo-set plastic figure of John Betjeman to complete the scene.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Nearholmer