60800 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Afternoon all, i'm looking at producing for myself a couple of units, electrics and steam locos using my 3D printer, but I am also looked at producing a certain number of each in order to sell on to help cover my costs, as I'm sure a few of you know, filament for 3D printing isn't cheap. What I would like to know, if anyone can help, is that if I for example produced a 4 car class 325 EMU kit in OO, would I have to seek permission from ABB group and Royal Mail to produce and sell it, even if it is just an unpainted, unbranded kit that on the box says 'four car EMU'. I am not trying to avoid royalty costs or get one over on copyright, I would simply like to know what I can and cannot do and how I have to go about that if I do need to obtain permission Cheers, 60800 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 As far as I know, kits for railway models are generally viewed as being outside of the normal definition of licensed intellectual property. Simply put, you can run up a model of whatever you like provided you do the design work yourself or commission someone to make it for you. You are them able to sell those items for whatever you wish - its the same as selling a painting or a photograph of the stock that you refer to - categorised as art more than anything else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60800 Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 Hi Edge, That is certainly the kind of information I was looking for, and a very interesting type of information that I didn't know existed in that regard. Cheers, 60800 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal.n Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 I think calling it a class 325 EMU would be fine as that is its TOPS code and would remain the same if someone else was operating it (Royal Mail don't own the name 'class 325') . As long as there is no branding (decals) on the unit or the packaging I think you are in the clear. If you did want to put the Royal Mail logo on the box or the unit, just email them and be honest and see what they say (you need written permission from them). I did this with ScotRail for their branding on station signs and they gave me written permission for free. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Will you be posting more info on here? I'd be interested in a Class 325 kit or two. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted March 10, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2017 AFAIK copywright issues of this sort only refer to finished models carrying company or other logos or symbols, or transfers in the case of kits. You may run into trouble with representations of logos or symbols on raised relief in the 3D print, such as the cast cycling lions on early 25kv electrics or the raised lettering on Timken or SKF roller bearing axle covers (I had an auntie that worked for SKF) for instance, but I cannot see any issue with a 3D print of a 325. cal.n's point about packaging is a good one, though, even if you use a photograph which would otherwise be allowable; the difference is that you are using it in a business capacity to make money. A 4mm scale line drawing of part of a 325 would be fine, and good marketing in that it suggests that you have taken care in working from such a drawing when preparing the print, which you probably will have! A friend who owns a microlight aircraft took me up for a spin recently and mentioned that I needed to be aware that any photographs I'd taken (for my purposes, mind, not his) that ended up being published commercially or used for marketing purposes would have repercussions for him in terms of his entitlement to an amateur pilot's license, so you are right in taking a cautious approach to this issue. Being caught out is probably unlikely, but if you were, the excuse that you were doing it as a limited edition as a favour for friends and hadn't been advertising the models on the open market (I am assuming this is some sort of subscriber deal where you do not print any models until you have sufficient orders) won't get you very far! Businesses can be quite protective of their brands, and the symbols associated with them, though as cal's experience shows, they are also quite likely to be cool about it and consider it good pr and marketing. Let me know if you are considering any sort of pre- diagram A27 GWR auto trailer; I may well be interested, especially A7 or N (see how I cunningly changed the thread to a wish list there?). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Copyright and Advertising are two sides of the same coin. Many firms will PAY for their logos to be displayed. Maybe offer Royal Mail, etc, an opportunity to advertise on your models? Might even get a few quid out of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60800 Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 Thanks for the replies all, The kits are planned to be produced to order and will all be done from my own measurements, photographs and line drawings (line drawings are something I used to do as a hobby, so no issue there). I'm planning to have no logos evident whatsoever, but I agree that when I comes to modern units like the 325, I'm better safe than sorry in contacting Royal Mail and / or ABB group. The grey area for me is when you look at steam locos. My 'headline' loco so to speak will be an S160, but who owns the copyrights to that? Cheers, 60800 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60800 Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 If anyone is interested, This is the list of items I wish to produce for myself, so will definitely go ahead; BR and LNER V2 - loco and tender BR and LNER V2 - loco body to fit Bachmann chassis BR and LNER K4 - loco and tender BR and LNER K4 - loco body sections and tender to fit Hornby K1 chassis BR and LNER Q7 - loco and tender BR and LNER J27 - loco and tender Industrial - Agecroft Industrial - Teddy Hunslet BO-BO (Scunthorpe fleet) BR 78XXX - loco and tender BR and WD 2-10-0 - loco and tender BR and USA S-160 - loco and tender BR and LMS Black 5 - loco and tender Taff Vale tank - loco BR and L&NWR A class - loco and tender BR class 41 HST - loco BR class 81 - loco BR class 82 - loco BR class 83 - loco BR class 84 - loco BR class 89 - loco BR class 185 - 3 car unit BR class 325 - 4 car unit APT-P - 7 car unit APT-P trailer coach APT-S - 5 or 8 car unit, proposed production variant Why a black 5? Well just look at the tender and chassis of Hornby's.... In addition to this, some individuals have requested; Class 175 Class 180 Class 334 Class 377 Class 458 Class 460 Class 504 Class 506 Stainer 8F (again, chassis and tender issues) These will only go ahead if at least five people want them as I have no interest in these classes unfortunately (ok, a grand central 180 would be nice ) Someone also showed interest in those EMU carriages that have been dumped at Donny for years and I've even had a request for a Eurostar intermediate coach! In terms of coaches, I am in no way confident, but shall only be looking at oddballs like the L&NWR society coach, the NYMR's great Northern saloon, the H&B coach, the GCR's Barnum and the stuff like Caroline Cheers, 60800 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelpara Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 APT-P - 7 car unit APT-P trailer coach APT-S - 5 or 8 car unit, proposed production variant These I have an interest in, just remember Shane (wolf) is finalising an etch kit for the APT-P coaches. Certainly the APT-S has promise Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 That's a long list. What do you propose to do about a chassis for those where you haven't specified a RTR one? My concern would also be about the surface finish you can achieve with your printer. I build from etched and occasionally w/m kits and have yet to see a 3D printed model (other than the excellent small ModelU items) that provides an acceptable result at a reasonable price. It may not be an issue for "rare" prototypes, but might be if there are comparable "traditional" kits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60800 Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 Hi Modelpara, In terms of the APT-P, I am in no way trying to reduce / affect sales of Shane's product. I wish to produce an APT-P for myself, but if I do do batch production, I will contact Shane beforehand and very likely just produce the chassis elements and cab ends, or a frame to which his etches could be applied. Please note at this point no contact has been made with him. The APT-S will be standard trailer cars but fitted with a 25kv roof mounted bus, with the central powercar removed and both end units converted to a Eurostar type powercar arrangement. Cheers, 60800 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
knitpick Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 You don't say what step size your 3D printer uses. I got the impression talking to CWRail at XPONG a couple of years back that the step size for domestic 3D printers was a potential issue. And that one would have to do a lot of fettling to get a smooth surface. He told me he uses one intended for business use costing a few tens of thousand pounds with a very small step size. Clearly, the more expensive the printer, the higher your charges would be. Sorry if this seems negative, but I feel potential customers should know what quality of 3D print is involved. After all, if the price and quality is right, I might be interested in a class 375. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60800 Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 That's a long list. What do you propose to do about a chassis for those where you haven't specified a RTR one? My concern would also be about the surface finish you can achieve with your printer. I build from etched and occasionally w/m kits and have yet to see a 3D printed model (other than the excellent small ModelU items) that provides an acceptable result at a reasonable price. It may not be an issue for "rare" prototypes, but might be if there are comparable "traditional" kits. Hi LNWRmodeller, In terms of the surface finish, what you'll get is a basic body shell with window cutouts and marked / dimpled holes for handrails etc. I'm lucky in that my printer tends to over print a little bit, which gives just enough scope for sanding smooth, but you chaps won't see that as I'll supply the bodies already sanded to shape. In terms of the chassis, I'll provide basic frame plates and stretchers /blocks depending on what people would prefer. The slots for the axles will be pre-moulded and there will be a recommended wheel, axle, brass sleeve, gearbox (in terms of the steam) and motor which I will recommend. The beauty of 3D printing is that if you wish to use a different motor, just tell me and I'll design and print off a suitable motor mount for it. The same goes for the bodies - if you receive, say a class 180 and you think I've done a bad job of the complex nose, just tell me what I've got wrong and I'll re-design it and ship out the new noses to you Cheers, 60800 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60800 Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 You don't say what step size your 3D printer uses. I got the impression talking to CWRail at XPONG a couple of years back that the step size for domestic 3D printers was a potential issue. And that one would have to do a lot of fettling to get a smooth surface. He told me he uses one intended for business use costing a few tens of thousand pounds with a very small step size. Clearly, the more expensive the printer, the higher your charges would be. Sorry if this seems negative, but I feel potential customers should know what quality of 3D print is involved. After all, if the price and quality is right, I might be interested in a class 375. Hi knitpick, I've managed to override what the printer deems as acceptable and can run to layers of 1/3rd of a mm. the only thing it doesn't like are lightening holes. Impressions of them? Fine. A proper lightening hole and it throws a fit, so that's the only compromise I've hit so far. I will warn though that tender and cab sides will be moulded at 0.75mm at minimum though. Cheers, 60800 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Hi knitpick, I've managed to override what the printer deems as acceptable and can run to layers of 1/3rd of a mm. the only thing it doesn't like are lightening holes. Impressions of them? Fine. A proper lightening hole and it throws a fit, so that's the only compromise I've hit so far. I will warn though that tender and cab sides will be moulded at 0.75mm at minimum though. Cheers, 60800. 33mm sounds pretty rough. That's 333 microns or .013" (thirteen thou). You can feel .001" (one thou) with your fingernail. Shapeways FUD apparently is 32 micron (one tenth of your .33mm) and I haven't seen anything in FUD that matches "traditional" kit finishes. They introduced FXD at 16 microns but I haven't seen anything in that. One well know kit supplier recently produced a limited production of very nice resin cast carriages. He paid over £500 for each pattern to get an acceptable surface finish for the moulding process. I was also shown some FUD loco brake hangers/blocks earlier this week. The originator is happy with the result (especially when painted matt black) but said he wouldn't go for anything bigger that needed larger smooth surfaces. I wish you luck and would suggest that you produce one item and test the market before getting too far into designing lots of different items. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60800 Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 Hi LNWR modeller, Thanks for the info. I knew from the outset that the initial prints will look rough, but I am designing in compensation for this, with a view to sanding everything smooth before delivery. I've already printed off a set of steps for my Britannia which look a treat once cleaned up and I'm well on the way with the V2 boiler which will hopefully be printed Sunday night. The actual boiler barrel itself is already done and I'm in the process of adding boiler bands and then producing both the firebox and smokebox separately. The smokebox saddle will be moulded as part of the running plate. The one thing I do have on my side is that everything will only be produced as a small batch. In terms of the stuff like the 325, I may make 10 but no more (unless someone is doing a Royal Mail depot with six four car sets sat around). Things like the APT-S? I'm making one for myself and maybe an absolute maximum of three more. It's all very short run, carefully planned out and a lot of post process work, but it will make some things a lot easier than scratch building Cheers, 60800 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
47164 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Hi going back to your opening question, re the 325 emu, I would Imagine that there is nothing to be lost in enquiring with rm ,as it could give you a scope as to any potential obstacles in the future , and help define your product line. Fox do transfers that would suit the model, I would be interested in a 325, and the ac locos. Good luck as you have identified a badly needed requirement in the market since the demsise of the likes of hurst,craftsman and dare I say MTK! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 The technology seems to lend itself to the old panelled pre group coaches mush better than the modern flush sided stuff. I suspect getting that smooth shiny surface finish will be a major obstacle to producing modern coaching stock. I have a rake of Hornby Dublo Tinplate coaches and it always strikes me how much more realistic they look when in motion passing a video camera as the light catches the shiny smooth surface than for instance the Hornby Hawkesworths or Bachmann Bullieds. Your coach bodies will need a high level of preparation and skill with a spray gun to make first class models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I would be interested in the APT-P and the Class 325. Any chance of a 323? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Hi LNWR modeller, Thanks for the info. I knew from the outset that the initial prints will look rough, but I am designing in compensation for this, with a view to sanding everything smooth before delivery. I've already printed off a set of steps for my Britannia which look a treat once cleaned up and I'm well on the way with the V2 boiler which will hopefully be printed Sunday night. The actual boiler barrel itself is already done and I'm in the process of adding boiler bands and then producing both the firebox and smokebox separately. The smokebox saddle will be moulded as part of the running plate. The one thing I do have on my side is that everything will only be produced as a small batch. In terms of the stuff like the 325, I may make 10 but no more (unless someone is doing a Royal Mail depot with six four car sets sat around). Things like the APT-S? I'm making one for myself and maybe an absolute maximum of three more. It's all very short run, carefully planned out and a lot of post process work, but it will make some things a lot easier than scratch building Cheers, 60800 I'd leave off the boiler bands, you'll probably lose some of their detail when sanding and it'll make doing that easier. BBs were only about 1/8" and are adequately represented by transfers or thin self adhesive strip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted March 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 11, 2017 Which Taff Vale loco are you thinking about, 60800, and GW rebuild or not? I might be interested in a rebuilt 04. And good luck with it in general, it is an interesting and innovative strategy which deserves to be a success. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60800 Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 Afternoon all, i just thought i'd post progress on the kind of things you can expect. This is the CAD so far on the V2, namely the boiler barrel, smokebox and the start of the smokebox door. BR and LNER smokebox doors will be catered for as will outside steam pipe variants if anyone wants one. I've moulded oversize boiler bands as I expect them to be worn down. This version of the boiler is designed to fit on the current Bachmann chassis, hence the large cutout. On my chassis, the gearbox will come up through the firebox and the cutout will not be required. Thanks for looking; Cheers, 60800 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60800 Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 Which Taff Vale loco are you thinking about, 60800, and GW rebuild or not? I might be interested in a rebuilt 04. And good luck with it in general, it is an interesting and innovative strategy which deserves to be a success. Hi Johnster, I'll be building Taffy tank 85 in her preserved condition Cheers, 60800 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted March 12, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 12, 2017 Hi Johnster, I'll be building Taffy tank 85 in her preserved condition Cheers, 60800 Ah. Nice, but I can't really wangle an excuse for one on those on my BLT. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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