DCC Controllers

[Nigelcliffe]

Hi all,

 

I wonder if anyone could help me please?

 

The NCE Powercab arrived on Friday afternoon and I have plugged the controller in, set it up and programmed all of my locos to it.

 

I have been running locos individually but I am now wanting to make advanced consists. I have read the instruction booklet and I have tried programming for advanced conists several times but to no avail.

 

Please could anyone tell me the basic steps of how to set up and add locos to an advanced consist?

 

 

 

This really has to be "read the steps in the manual and tell us where it doesn't work for you".   However, before going there, you could perhaps check that at least two of your locos support Advanced Consisting. 

 

Either you really know they do (because the decoders clearly say they support it),   or you've checked they do:

 

To check they support Advanced Consisting:

  On the Programming Track (which means, remove everything else from the layout, or disconnect PowerCab from layout and connect to short isolated bit of track alone), then put the PowerCab into programming track mode.   Read back CV19.  It should be zero.   (If anything else, chances are your decoder doesn't support it).   Now set CV19 to a value of your choice below 127, I'm going to suggest "52".   Read back CV19 again, it should now be 52, if not you've failed to program it (or the decoder doesn't support it).

  Now, put PowerCab back into "running a loco" (ie. exit from programming).  You can do this on the short bit of test track.  Call up loco 52, and drive it.  Your loco, now consisted to "52" should drive correctly.  And won't drive on its normal address. 

  Now, back to programming track mode, and reset CV19 back to zero. 

  Finally, exit programming and run the loco.   It should respond to its original address, and won't respond on address 52.

 

Repeat the above for your second loco. 

 

That's done Advanced Consisting the really long-winded manual method, and proved the decoders support it.  (There are quicker manual methods once you know the decoders support Advanced Consists, where the CV19 value is set with Operations Mode programming on the mainline, but the above is definitive ).

 

 

 

Put everything back onto the layout, connect up the PowerCab, and work through the PowerCab's instructions.   They guide you into what to do.   The PowerCab limits your consist addresses to 112 to 127, this is to allow the PowerCab to do some internal memory tricks of what has happened, and to allow it to undo things for you,  and a few advanced tricks such as reversing the consist (swapping the tail loco with the lead, something useful for American outline operations with 5 or more locos in a consist, perhaps less useful for UK double-heading).

 

 

 

 

- Nigel

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

First question has to be ... Do the decoders in the locos support Advanced Consisting? Not all do.  What make and model are they?

 

Thank you for the reply and for the help. I really appreciate it.

 

I'm sure that all of my locos except the Hornby Class 60 are fitted with Bachmann 8 Pin or Bachmann 21 Pin DCC Decoders.

 

Thank you very much in advance.

[Nigelcliffe]

Thank you for the reply and for the help. I really appreciate it.

 

I'm sure that all of my locos except the Hornby Class 60 are fitted with Bachmann 8 Pin or Bachmann 21 Pin DCC Decoders.

 

Thank you very much in advance.

 

You need to be more specific on the decoders - model numbers help, though even that may not be definitive.  

 

Unfortunately, Bachmann (and Hornby - they are alike on this) have sold a fair number of very basic decoders under their brand names.  Some Bachmann branded decoders don't support Advanced Consists.   But some do.

 

 

- Nigel

[Pete the Elaner]

The decoders should give you more detail which you can query with your PowerCab.

I'll assume you have not read the instruction book.

With only 1 loco on the layout, press PROG/ESC until the throttle says 'use program track'. It will then ask what program mode. Choosing 1 for STD mode will read the manufacturer & model code from the decoder.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Pete the Elaner

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Thank you everyone for all of the replies and the help. I really appreciate it.

 

Yesterday I decided to try to programme two other locos into a consist and leave the two locos that I was originally working with.

 

Before I knew it, it worked and I had made a consist. Both locos were running at the same time, at the same speed, in the same direction.

 

However when running the locos I saw that the directional lights on the locos were not switching to the other direction when I was pressing the direction button on the controller. The locos would move in the opposite direction but the lighting wouldn't change. For example the locos would be moving backwards (in reverse) but at the front of the locos the lights would be white and at the back the lights were red. When it should be white lights at the back (when reversing) and red lights at the front. I tried deleting (killing) the consist and starting to make the consist again. The locos would run together again but I still had the lighting issue. I then took both locos off of the layout and unplugged the two wires from ther track and moved them to a seperate piece of track that I have for programming locos on. I reprogrammed both locos thinking that that would solve the lighting issue, then made the consist again on the layout and the lighting issue was still their. I also made sure that both locos directions on their original addresses and the conists address were all in the same direction. For example all three were either in forward or reverse mode. Something to point out is that I'm sure when I made the consist for the first time that the lights would operate directionally properly. I think the lighting issue occurred whilst running them in the consist together.

 

Please can anyone advise as to how I can get the directional lighting working properly again whilst the locos are in a consist?

 

It's worth mentioning that when the consist has been killed and the locos are running individually that the lights work directionally and properly as they should.

 

Thank you very much in advance.

 

I also realised yesterday that a small minority of my locos may/don't have Bachmann DCC Decoders in them. I'm sure that I bought two locos DCC Fitted from a model shop a few years ago. Coincidentally these were the two locos that I was trying to make a consist with originally. I also have two Bachmann Class 66s with Hattons DCC Decoders Fitted and a Hornby Class 60 fitted with a DCC Sound Decoder. Does this mean that I can only run these five locos individually and not in a consist using this controller?

 

Any help is very much appreciated.

 

Thank you very much in advance.

[Nigelcliffe]

For locos in a consist, you need to decide which functions (lights, sounds, other features) are controlled by the loco's address (which is still active even when the consist is setup, the loco address can be accessed and functions operated on that loco alone), and which by the consist address.  Each decoder is setup separately.

 

For most decoders this will be in CV's 21 and 22 (most makers who support Advanced Consists also implement this according to the NMRA recommendations).  

For lights, the common setting would be in CV22, where the first two bits of the CV control the forward and reverse lights.  Set CV22 = 3 for forward and reverse lights to be controlled by the consist address. 

 

 

 

( You're slowly starting to explore the complexities possible in DCC possible with a fully featured control system such as the PowerCab.  This has good and bad sides.   The good is the flexibility of control available, the bad is that it can take a while to understand what's going on.   )

 

 

 

Can't be sure on the Hatton's decoder, depends what it really is under the badge.   I think its the generic Chinese decoder which has a lot of similarity to an old TCS design.   As such it probably supports Advanced Consists.    

 

Sound decoders - anything by ESU, Zimo, TCS, Soundtraxx,  Digitrax  (and quite a few other brands) will support Advanced Consists. The factory fitted sounds from Hornby and Bachmann's UK range were with ESU decoders until very recently, when they started using other sources in some models.    The stand-out exception appears to be Hornby's TTS range of cheaper sound decoders, where their manuals don't mention support of Advanced Consisting CV numbers.   

 

 

 

- Nigel

[10000]

The way your lights behave can be down to the decoders. I have found different reactions from different manufactures.

 

But try this. 

 

2 locos numbers  e.g. 1 and 2. 

Create consist i.e. No 126 with No 1 as lead going forward, No 2 as rear also going forward.

 

Using Consist No 126 set direction forward run them and turn lights on and note what happens on both locos. Turn off lights.

 

While still consisted select No 1 on the Powercab going forward run them and turn on lights and note what happens on both locos. Stop and change direction.

 

Now do the same but selecting No 2 on the Powercab.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Thank you very much for all of the replies and the help. I really appreciate it.

 

I have just selected CV 22 and then entered number 3 and this has worked. The directional lighting of both locos in the consist is been controlled by the consist number. The cab lighting is been controlled by the individual locos numbers and not the consist. This is perfect.

 

I have done this on the programme track with just these two locos on the track. Am I ok to change the lighting for consists like what I have just done on the main layout with the wires plugged into the whole layout with all of the locos on? This won't add further locos to the consist or change/alter the lighting arrangements for other locos will it?

 

Am I right in thinking that once I kill/delete the consist for these two locos that the lighting arrangements will go back to normal and both the directional and cab lighting will be controlled by the individual loco numbers and not the consist number?

 

Will selecting CV 22 and then entering number 3 work for all locos that are compatible to work with advanced consists? So if I select two Dapol Class 68s that have different DCC Decoders in, provided that they are compatible for advanced consists with the NCE will selecting CV 22 and then entering number 3 control their directional lighting by the consist address? Is this the same method to use for all locos provided that they are compatible for advanced consists on the NCE?

 

Also when I am selecting a loco and putting it's directional and cab lighting on and then selecting another loco and doing the same thing, when I go back to the first loco that I have selected the lights on the loco are going off meaning that I have to turn them back on again. Does anyone know why this happens and if I can stop it from happening?

 

I really appreciate all of the help and the replies.

 

Thank you very much in advance.

[10000]

Here's some useful reading

 

 

https://tonystrains.com/complete-guide-to-consisting/

[Nigelcliffe]

Answering (most of) the questions above.

 

CV21/CV22 are for use in Consists only.  When not in a Consist, control reverts to how it was before, by individual loco.  

The values for CV21/22 are in the NMRA DCC standard, so makers should follow them.   However, there is probably somebody who doesn't, so you might have to find the manual for that individual decoder. 

The value of CV22=3 is for two particular functions - LightsForward and LightsReverse (also called F0Forwards and F0Reverse).  If that's how the lights are wired in the loco, yes its a value of 3.  Most locos are wired that way from the maker. 

 

Yes, you can use Programming on the Main (also called Operations Mode programming) to set these values.   With Ops-Mode, you are writing instructions to a specific loco address, so it only affects that individual locomotive.

 

 

The final issue - cab lights going on/off as you access them is something in the PowerCab's internal memory - whether it resets a loco back to "all off" when you re-connect to it, or whether it continues as before.    I think there is a setting which can be changed to alter it, but a PowerCab user will have to come along with the details for the change. 

 

 

 

 

-  Nigel

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Thank you very much for all of the replies and the help. I really appreciate it.

 

CV 22 and then selecting number 3 seems to be working to make the directional lighting operate correctly when two locos are in a consist. Thank you very much for all of the help with that.

 

Yesterday I tried programming two other locos into a new consist and the controller showed that they were programmed but when trying to move them the locos didn't move at all when been operated by the consist number. This is the same thing that happened originally with the first two locos that I tried programming to make a consist.

 

Does this mean that all of the locos that I can't programme together to make a consist need new DCC Decoders buying and fitting?

 

I realised yesterday that I think some of my locos have Bachmann 36-554 and 36-557 DCC Decoders fitted. Both are 21 Pin Bachmann DCC Decoders but 36-554 is 3-function 2-sided 1A decoder with back EMF for slow running and 36-557 is an E-Z Command 4-function 1A decoder with back EMF.

 

Does anyone know if this makes a difference and if so please could anyone tell me which if either of the above DCC Decoders will work and support advanced consisting on the NCE DCC Controller?

 

The above two decoders are fitted into the majority of my locos so I am thinking that their must be a difference between the two to make some locos work together in a consist and some locos not.

 

Thank you very much in advance.

[traction]

Hows about going to Bachmann Support and downloading the manuals for each decoder?

 

http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/service/dug.php

 

Just a thought.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[Nigelcliffe]

Thank you very much for all of the replies and the help. I really appreciate it.

 

CV 22 and then selecting number 3 seems to be working to make the directional lighting operate correctly when two locos are in a consist. Thank you very much for all of the help with that.

 

Yesterday I tried programming two other locos into a new consist and the controller showed that they were programmed but when trying to move them the locos didn't move at all when been operated by the consist number. This is the same thing that happened originally with the first two locos that I tried programming to make a consist.

 

Does this mean that all of the locos that I can't programme together to make a consist need new DCC Decoders buying and fitting?

 

No, you can use "old-style" consists instead ( which are also called "command station assisted consists" or "universal consists" in other documentation).

 

Consult your PowerCab manual on how they work.

 

 

I realised yesterday that I think some of my locos have Bachmann 36-554 and 36-557 DCC Decoders fitted. Both are 21 Pin Bachmann DCC Decoders but 36-554 is 3-function 2-sided 1A decoder with back EMF for slow running and 36-557 is an E-Z Command 4-function 1A decoder with back EMF.

 

Does anyone know if this makes a difference and if so please could anyone tell me which if either of the above DCC Decoders will work and support advanced consisting on the NCE DCC Controller?

 

You need to read the decoder manuals, if the topic isn't mentioned, or CV19 isn't described, then they probably don't support Advanced Consists.  

 

 

- Nigel

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Thank you very much for all of the help and the replies. I really appreciate it.

 

I have read the DCC Decoder instructions for the 36-554 decoder and 36-557 decoder and on the 36-554 decoder CV19 isn't listed or mentioned whereas on the 36-557 decoder CV19 is listed and mentioned.

 

So is it possible to have a consist as an old style consist and an advanced consist at the same time if two locos had the different DCC Decoders?

 

Also I have just programmed some more consists and I am fine making and programming the locos to make the conists but I am confused about getting the directional lighting to operate by the consist address. I have tried CV 22 and then entering the number 3 for two different conists using Bachmann 37/4s and Bachmann 57/3s and this doesn't work.

 

Does this mean that the CV and value for the above locos to get the directional lighting working by the consist address is different? If so does anyone know what it might be?

 

I have tried CV 29 and then entering 1 because on the instruction leaflet it suggests that this works for consists. But nothing happened.

 

I have also tried CV 21 and then entering 3 but this didn't work either.

 

Please could anyone advise the CV and Value to get the lights for locos in a consist to operate by the consist address?

 

Thank you very much in advance.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Hi all,

 

Thank you for all of the help so far with the NCE Controller. I really appreciate it.

 

I am getting used to how the controller works and I am really impressed with it.

 

I just have one main question though if anyone could help me please?

 

I have two circuits of track so that I can run more than one loco at once on the layout. If I start one loco running on one circuit and then start a second loco running on the second circuit, if I then want to go back to the first loco that I started running when I select the loco address and press enter the speed for the loco shows 0 and all of the lights are switched off. The loco stays running despite the speed saying 0 but then when I decrease the speed of the loco to slow it down it slows right down as if starting moving from speed 0 really slowly.

 

Does anyone know how I can make it so that when I select the first loco after moving the second loco so that it stays running and the controller shows this on the speed screen and so that all of the lights that were switched on originally stay on?

 

Thank you very much in advance.

[Alcanman]

You need to use the 'recall' button.  Enter the first loco address and press recall. Enter the second loco address and press recall. Using the recall button you can then toggle between each loco and lights, sound etc will stay on.

 

 

Mal

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

You need to use the 'recall' button.  Enter the first loco address and press recall. Enter the second loco address and press recall. Using the recall button you can then toggle between each loco and lights, sound etc will stay on.

 

 

Mal

 

Thank you very much for the reply and for the information. I really appreciate it.

 

I never knew that it was that simple. Is their a maximum number of locos that I can recall or is it unlimited no matter how many locos that I want to move?

 

Thank you very much in advance.

[traction]

Thank you very much for the reply and for the information. I really appreciate it.

 

I never knew that it was that simple. Is their a maximum number of locos that I can recall or is it unlimited no matter how many locos that I want to move?

 

Thank you very much in advance.

 

If its the latest firmware in the Powercab then the maximum number of locos in the recall stack can be set to 6.

You need to go into CAB set up menu and alter this to 6.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

If its the latest firmware in the Powercab then the maximum number of locos in the recall stack can be set to 6.

You need to go into CAB set up menu and alter this to 6.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

 

Thank you very much for the reply and the information. I really appreciate it. 

 

If the recall stack is six locos I might not need to change anything because I won't need to move more than six separate locos at once. 

 

However is their anyway that I can increase and decrease the recall stack as and when required? Or can't this be changed? 

 

Thank you very much in advance. 

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Hi all, 

 

Thank you very much for all of the replies and help. I really appreciate it. 

 

If anyone could help me with another question I have I would really appreciate it. Thank you in advance. 

 

Can you speedmatch locos when they are in a consist on the NCE DCC Controller? 

 

If so please could someone also tell me how to do this?

 

I have looked in the instruction manual but can't find the word speedmatch/ed or anything along those lines. 

 

Thank you very much in advance. 

[Pete the Elaner]

You need to use the 'recall' button.  Enter the first loco address and press recall. Enter the second loco address and press recall. Using the recall button you can then toggle between each loco and lights, sound etc will stay on.

 

 

Mal

Increasing the recall stack helps, but when a loco is re-selected into the recall stack, it will reset speed, lights etc.

I have posted the answer to this before but it took a while to find (& it helps that I knew exactly what I was looking for) so I have saved it on my hard drive now, because I am sure to need it again

 

Once in the recall stack, it knows what the last command sent was so displays this & maintains movement.

The system cannot read settings so in order for you to see what the loco is doing, it sets all commands (speed, direction, sound, lights) to zero, so there is a logic to it.

This is known as SELECT LOCO REFRESH & can be disabled if your PowerCab uses v1.28b or later.

This can be changed as follows.

 

Press ESC on the throttle until SET COMMAND STATION appears.

Press ENTER to accept the current settings for each of the options displayed.

After SYSTEM RESET you should see SELECT LOCO REFRESH. Options are Y=1 & N=0.

The default setting of 1 switches everything to off when a loco is selected.

The default setting of 1 will switch lights & sound off when a loco outside of the recall stack is selected, though the loco itself will keep moving if it is already in motion.

 

This is straight from my PowerCab's release notes for the manual but I am not convinced the italic sentence is entirely correct. I can't test it easily because I have not used my PowerCab as a command station for several years.

 

There is no such function for the ProCab. NCE have apparently not received a request asking for it. I find 6 recall slots plenty though.

[rockershovel]

Interesting to see this business of Powercab resetting the functions when recalling a loco from the stack, referred to.

 

Having had the opportunity to use both side by side, I find the Gaugemaster preferable in that respect.

 

I also find the Gaugemaster more legible

[Pete the Elaner]

Hi all, 

 

Thank you very much for all of the replies and help. I really appreciate it. 

 

If anyone could help me with another question I have I would really appreciate it. Thank you in advance. 

 

Can you speedmatch locos when they are in a consist on the NCE DCC Controller? 

 

If so please could someone also tell me how to do this?

 

I have looked in the instruction manual but can't find the word speedmatch/ed or anything along those lines. 

 

Thank you very much in advance. 

It sounds like you need to look into speed tables, which is a larger topic. You would need to set these on each loco before consisting them.

I have not tried to match any locos. If I want to double head, I usually use 2 throttles & drive them both independently but I may want to use consisting in the future.

I would not be surprised if some of the budget chips do not allow adjustment of speed tables.

 

Having checked the manuals for Loksound v4 & Zimo decoders, they use the same variables. Maybe these are universal, maybe not?

You will first need to turn on speed tables by changing CV29 bit 4 to value 1, which would make CV29 16-31 or 48-63

Then adjust CVs 67-94, I don't know what these should be adjusted to though. I doubt you would get this right first time so you would have to make further adjustments.

 

Making changes like this from the throttle seems a little daunting to me. I really recommend looking at JMRI because you can do it all with a mouse & a user-friendly interface.

[S&DWatty]

I run 2 eras on my layout, early to mid '60s and mid '80s.  I was reaching the 40 loco limit and was thinking about how to increase the space available in the roster.  As there were several locos that would never have been seen running together due to the historical time differecnes between my chosen periods I have combined loco addresses to give me more room on the roster.  Ive manage to create the equivalent of 12 additional slots on the roster now and there's another potential 7 available if I combine more addresses.  It neatly avoids running out of space and enables me to run my 2 periods and have more stock!

 

I have also programmed more locos to address 3 as they are occaisional runners or "specials"....

[Nigelcliffe]

54 minutes ago, S&DWatty said:

I run 2 eras on my layout, early to mid '60s and mid '80s.  I was reaching the 40 loco limit and was thinking about how to increase the space available in the roster.  As there were several locos that would never have been seen running together due to the historical time differecnes between my chosen periods I have combined loco addresses to give me more room on the roster.  Ive manage to create the equivalent of 12 additional slots on the roster now and there's another potential 7 available if I combine more addresses.  It neatly avoids running out of space and enables me to run my 2 periods and have more stock!

 

I have also programmed more locos to address 3 as they are occaisional runners or "specials"....

 

After a bit of thinking,  I suspect S&DWatty has a Dynamis.   It's one of very few controllers available with a limit on number of locos which can be controlled. 

 

The rest of the old thread immediately above was about PowerCabs, and the ability to rapidly jump between two or six locos.  The PowerCab (and most DCC systems) would have no problem with thousands of locos with unique addresses available for the layout - just enter the address and drive the loco. 

 

 

- Nigel