Barnt Green to Bromsgrove Electrification

[melmerby]

Cross Country have not sent letters of concern to Network Rail regarding the station layout.

Regards

Oh yes they have.

There was one on the Network rail site at the time of the station upgrade a year or so ago.

 

Keith

[Tavy Man]

Oh yes they have.

There was one on the Network rail site at the time of the station upgrade a year or so ago.

 

Keith

Why on earth would WE send letters to Network Rail complaining about being unable to use the "Through Line" as you describe it when the through route is platform 4.....

[melmerby]

Why on earth would WE send letters to Network Rail complaining about being unable to use the "Through Line" as you describe it when the through route is platform 4.....

There was a letter from CC to Network Rail, I read it the documentation NR published on line.

IIRC it was about the northbound situation where originally, (maybe it changed later?) the plan was for all through trains to be routed around rather than use the straight through platform.

Concern was that it would slow down through trains about to tackle the incline and cause delay to the schedule.

 

BTW why has the southbound "loop" platform been made the through line with the higher speed when logic suggests is should be the other way round?

 

Keith

[Edwin_m]

BTW why has the southbound "loop" platform been made the through line with the higher speed when logic suggests is should be the other way round?

Because that way the cross-city trains have a centre turnback between the lines used by through trains.  A cross-city doesn't conflict with through trains in the opposite direction, either on arrival or on departure. 

[The Stationmaster]

There was a letter from CC to Network Rail, I read it the documentation NR published on line.

IIRC it was about the northbound situation where originally, (maybe it changed later?) the plan was for all through trains to be routed around rather than use the straight through platform.

Concern was that it would slow down through trains about to tackle the incline and cause delay to the schedule.

 

BTW why has the southbound "loop" platform been made the through line with the higher speed when logic suggests is should be the other way round?

 

Keith

 

Although I can't find it on the 'net now I would have been extremely surprised if there had not been a response ('letter') from CC to Network Rail - in fact the lack of such a letter would have indicated either gross incompetence or considerable disorganisation on their part in dealing with important and long established (since privatisation) rail industry processes.

[Liam]

I'm baffled as to why the cross city trains couldn't use the side platforms for reversing - it would make life easier for the XC trains through the main Centre platforms.

 

Perhaps we should exhaust the matter on the letter between XC and Network Rail.

[Zomboid]

I'm baffled as to why the cross city trains couldn't use the side platforms for reversing - it would make life easier for the XC trains through the main Centre platforms.

 

Perhaps we should exhaust the matter on the letter between XC and Network Rail.

There's no reason why the fast lines have to be through the middle, and every reason why they should go round the edge.

The convention of slow lines on the outside (when paired by direction) comes from it being easier to add platforms later that way, no other reason.

The Met/Jubilee lines from Finchley Rd to Wembley is an example, where the fast (met) lines are on the outside and the slow (jub) lines are inside with island platforms. The GCR London extension would have been similar if they'd 4-tracked it.

Also, though everything stops there, the through platforms at Southampton Central are on the outside and the slow/ terminating platforms are inside.

The benefit of the terminating platforms being inside is that turnbacks are clear of all fast trains, hence many turn back sidings are in the middle; West Worthing, Harrow & Wealdstone, Maidenhead...

Edited April 17, 2017 by Zomboid

[Tavy Man]

There was a letter from CC to Network Rail, I read it the documentation NR published on line.

IIRC it was about the northbound situation where originally, (maybe it changed later?) the plan was for all through trains to be routed around rather than use the straight through platform.

Concern was that it would slow down through trains about to tackle the incline and cause delay to the schedule.

 

BTW why has the southbound "loop" platform been made the through line with the higher speed when logic suggests is should be the other way round?

 

Keith

I will say it again. The Bromsgrove Station Loop line IS platform 3 with a speed of 40mph entering and departing the platform. It is NOT the main southbound route. The fast line is the Down Gloucester line platform 4 with a speed of 90mph.

Platform 2 is the Up Gloucester with a speed of 90mph. Platform 1 is the Up Bromsgrove Loop with a speed of 30mph. The process for observations, complaints, or compensation payments is a process known as Network Change which Network Rail are mandated to do as part of any infrastructure change which affects all TOC's and FOC's. Our observations concerned the failure to wire platform 1 as I indicated earlier. We also have issues about the omission of a facing main to main crossover at the south end of the station and some other minor performance issues.

The station layout has always been the one I have described above and has not changed since the start of the Project. The main objections to this project were the FOC's who are not happy with the new bank engine arrangements which now involve GSMR and not the plungers, and of course the lack of paths now available to them because of the enhanced Cross City service.

 

Regards

[melmerby]

OK so I didn't read the letter after all. It was just a figment of my imagination.

 

I'll leave it at that.

 

Keith

[Tavy Man]

OK so I didn't read the letter after all. It was just a figment of my imagination.

 

I'll leave it at that.

 

Keith

My friend I don't wish to upset you or anyone else. I am simply trying to tell you that your post regarding letters to Network Rail regarding platforms 3 and 4 is incorrect. We have made our position clear through the Network change process ( probably the letter you have seen ) but this refers to the failure to wire platform 1. This means all northbound trains Including XC services would have to use platform 1 if the preferred Cross City platform is not available. We have also made the point that the failure to deliver a main to main facing crossover at the south of the layout means that northbound trains can't turn back from Bromsgrove should there be a blockage on the Lickey.

Apologies if I'm not making this clear.

 

Regards

[melmerby]

The letter I read seem to suggest that the remodelled layout would have both North and Southbound through services using the outer faces of the platforms.

The Cross City would have exclusive use of the inner faces.

Quite clearly from your information (and my observations today-see next post) the Southbound outer face (Platform 4) was re-aligned as the fast line with Platform 3 as a loop off it, so that is not a problem.

 

Maybe there had been some misunderstanding about the roles of Platforms 1 & 2 which still do not seem to have been completely resolved.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

[melmerby]

Being what initially was a fine day and knowing I was going to Bromsgrove I took a camera to record the current state at the Bromsgrove end of the Lickey.

However when I got to the station it was very overcast and raining so the photos haven't turned out as clear as I would have liked!

 

Finstall Road Bridge looking up the Lickey. This is as close as the OHLE has got to Bromsgrove:

 

Looking back to St Godwald's Road Bridge showing the alignment Southbound:

 

Looking North from the Station Footbridge:

 

Looking North along Platform 1 Road from Footbridge:

 

View South Along Platform 1 from Footbridge:

 

View South of Platforms 2 & 3 from Footbridge:

 

View South along Platform 3:

 

View North along Platform 4:

 

BTW, What are those round concrete pads just north of the platforms for?

 

Cheers

 

Keith

Edited April 17, 2017 by melmerby

[The Stationmaster]

I suspect there is an undertrack duct between the cable routes running between teh two concrete 'pards' (which presumably have soem sort of access covers?).  However they area lot bigger than the usual kit used for that so they might have a totally different purpose  

 

My friend I don't wish to upset you or anyone else. I am simply trying to tell you that your post regarding letters to Network Rail regarding platforms 3 and 4 is incorrect. We have made our position clear through the Network change process ( probably the letter you have seen ) but this refers to the failure to wire platform 1. This means all northbound trains Including XC services would have to use platform 1 if the preferred Cross City platform is not available. We have also made the point that the failure to deliver a main to main facing crossover at the south of the layout means that northbound trains can't turn back from Bromsgrove should there be a blockage on the Lickey.
Apologies if I'm not making this clear.

Regards

 

If your latter point is the case are the two Down direction signals at the south end of the Up platform fixed reds or is there a trailing crossover to the south of them?  If the latter then it would obviously be possible to reverse a train in the Up platforms (and it might be possible to do so using one or other of the crossovers at the north end once the signalling is in place?

[melmerby]

I suspect there is an undertrack duct between the cable routes running between teh two concrete 'pards' (which presumably have soem sort of access covers?).  However they area lot bigger than the usual kit used for that so they might have a totally different purpose  

 

 

If your latter point is the case are the two Down direction signals at the south end of the Up platform fixed reds or is there a trailing crossover to the south of them?  If the latter then it would obviously be possible to reverse a train in the Up platforms (and it might be possible to do so using one or other of the crossovers at the north end once the signalling is in place?

They look like fixed concrete discs (But I might be wrong!)

 

There are some up side sidings south of the platforms and I assume they are for movements into them. There doesn't appear to be a trailing crossover anywhere near Bromsgrove going south until you get to Abbotswood Jn.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

[keefer]

I take it that's a modern, compact catch point in your first pic, Keith?

Presumably to make sure anything derails in a straight-ish line?

[melmerby]

I take it that's a modern, compact catch point in your first pic, Keith?

Presumably to make sure anything derails in a straight-ish line?

I assumed that.

Shortly after I took the pic a CC unit roared up the incline, hence set to normal?

 

Keith

[Tavy Man]

I suspect there is an undertrack duct between the cable routes running between teh two concrete 'pards' (which presumably have soem sort of access covers?).  However they area lot bigger than the usual kit used for that so they might have a totally different purpose  

 

 

 

If your latter point is the case are the two Down direction signals at the south end of the Up platform fixed reds or is there a trailing crossover to the south of them?  If the latter then it would obviously be possible to reverse a train in the Up platforms (and it might be possible to do so using one or other of the crossovers at the north end once the signalling is in place?

Mike

BA9261 Up Gloucester down direction and BA7623 Up Bromsgrove Loop are both fixed reds with a position light. The only route from these two signals is to the Up Bromsgrove Neck ( Banker siding ). There is no main to main crossover trailing or facing at the south end of the layout.

There are main to main trailing and facing crossovers at the north end of the layout but there is no signalled route to the Down Gloucester from either of the two Up Platforms 1 or 2. BA3614 Up Gloucester and BA7612 Up Bromsgrove Loop are both straight post four aspect signals.

 

Regards

[Edwin_m]

Looking back to St Godwald's Road Bridge showing the alignment Southbound:

Down Lickey.jpg

This just shows in the distance how Down trains have a smooth curve round to the outside of the platforms and terminating trains have a (no doubt more restricted) reverse curve into an the centre of the layout. 

 

I think there was a temporary arrangement for a while when the station first opened, as the above curve couldn't be built until the old station platforms were demolished.  Perhaps this is the cause of some of the confusion? 

Edited April 17, 2017 by Edwin_m

[melmerby]

This just shows in the distance how Down trains have a smooth curve round to the outside of the platforms and terminating trains have a (no doubt more restricted) reverse curve into an the centre of the layout. 

 

I think there was a temporary arrangement for a while when the station first opened, as the above curve couldn't be built until the old station platforms were demolished.  Perhaps this is the cause of some of the confusion? 

When it first opened there was a fairly smooth curve down through the new platform 3 with no connexion to 4, the re-alignment following demolition of the old platforms has meant a smooth curve through 4 and a deviation into 3.

 

It still strikes me as an odd arrangement where I would have expected the up and down mains to curve smoothly through the centre roads (platforms 2 & 3) with the outer faces looping off to platforms 1 & 4 and using those just for the stoppers/Cross City traffic.

As "tavy man" has said only the inner platform faces are to be electrified which means that if for any reason platform 3 is unavailable a Cross City train will use Platform 2 causing through services to deviate through the slower platform 1.

 

Keith

[Tavy Man]

When it first opened there was a fairly smooth curve down through the new platform 3 with no connexion to 4, the re-alignment following demolition of the old platforms has meant a smooth curve through 4 and a deviation into 3.

 

It still strikes me as an odd arrangement where I would have expected the up and down mains to curve smoothly through the centre roads (platforms 2 & 3) with the outer faces looping off to platforms 1 & 4 and using those just for the stoppers/Cross City traffic.

As "tavy man" has said only the inner platform faces are to be electrified which means that if for any reason platform 3 is unavailable a Cross City train will use Platform 2 causing through services to deviate through the slower platform 1.

 

Keith

Spot on. That's the problem we are now faced with. Unfortunately the Bromsgrove station Project, Bromsgrove re-signalling, and electrification were managed as three separate projects. The result is a fit for purpose station, new signalling, but inadequate OLE provision. Apart from the non provision of OLE for platform 1 at Bromsgrove, the former Goods only line from Barnt Green to Longbridge has been upgraded to passenger status as part of the scheme, but there is no money to electrify it. Another bottle neck which could and should of been dealt with.

 

Regards

[jamie92208]

As a non expert observer the new arrangement does seem to make operating sense as it allows the Cross City Trains to reverse without conflicting moves across the fast lines. If the fast lines were in the centre then every reversal would mean going across the fast lines. This current arrangement is similar to the passing tracks that I saw on Union Pcific's transcontinental line where the sidings are in the centre of the two track main with access at each end to each main line.

 

Jamie

[phil-b259]

 

 

It still strikes me as an odd arrangement where I would have expected the up and down mains to curve smoothly through the centre roads (platforms 2 & 3) with the outer faces looping off to platforms 1 & 4 and using those just for the stoppers/Cross City traffic.

 

However in such arrangement causes unnecessary conflicts. With the terminating platform at one side an arriving or departing train blocks both main lines (depending on which side it is on). If you put the terminating platforms in the middle then it doesn't conflict with either line allowing terminators to seamlessly 'slot in' between through trains in both directions.

 

Examples where reversing sidings are in the middle of the formation can be seen at West Worthing, West Croydon and Harrow & Wealdstone.

Edited April 17, 2017 by phil-b259

[melmerby]

Spot on. That's the problem we are now faced with. Unfortunately the Bromsgrove station Project, Bromsgrove re-signalling, and electrification were managed as three separate projects. The result is a fit for purpose station, new signalling, but inadequate OLE provision. Apart from the non provision of OLE for platform 1 at Bromsgrove, the former Goods only line from Barnt Green to Longbridge has been upgraded to passenger status as part of the scheme, but there is no money to electrify it. Another bottle neck which could and should of been dealt with.

 

Regards

IMHO the 4 track formation should have been re-instated completely from Longbridge to Barnt Green

Rather like this:

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mr/barntgreen/mrbg705.jpg

 

with those, outer tracks, electrified.

This would allow a completely independent approach from Birmingham direction to the Redditch branch.

Too many crossings though for today's track designers!

Edited April 17, 2017 by melmerby

[Liam]

IMHO the 4 track formation should have been re-instated completely from Longbridge to Barnt Green

Rather like this:

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mr/barntgreen/mrbg705.jpg

 

with those, outer tracks, electrified.

This would allow a completely independent approach from Birmingham direction to the Redditch branch.

Too many crossings though for today's track designers!

I thought it was 4 track though

[melmerby]

I thought it was 4 track though

Unless it has been re-instated recently the down slow line from Longbridge becomes the down goods and does not extend further south than 50m34c, it is also not electrified.

Cross City trains have to join the down main which is electrified from Longbridge station at 49m12c. Barnt Green Station is at 51m67c

The up goods does not come off the (electrified) up main right by Barnt Green Station as it used to in the old days but a few chains further north. As Tavy Man said it is not electrified until Longbridge when it becomes the up slow.

 

Keith