Barnt Green to Bromsgrove Electrification

[Edwin_m]

Not only that, but if the above figures are somewhere near correct, the 323 is putting less horsepower through each powered axle despite having more power overall.

And the 323 has a relatively sophisticated electric traction system with AC motors, whereas the 170 has a diesel driving through a cardan shaft.  Went up the Lickey in a 170 on Wednesday and despite getting a good run at it, it was groaning and whining by the top...

[D854_Tiger]

And the 323 has a relatively sophisticated electric traction system with AC motors, whereas the 170 has a diesel driving through a cardan shaft.  Went up the Lickey in a 170 on Wednesday and despite getting a good run at it, it was groaning and whining by the top...

 

A three car class 170 has around 1250 bhp to play with.

 

They used to send class 118 Tyseley suburban units up Lickey, from a standing start, and they only had 600 bhp for three cars.

 

Mind you, they didn't do it so often in those days, so finding a timetable slot a few times a day wasn't so difficult, if slot is the right word for taking up a good quarter of the timetable in the hour.

 

A delight I never got round to trying (scarcity of trains) but sure wish now I had.

 

They also used to stop a Peak hauled XC service at Bromsgrove in the morning peak (Gloucester to Leeds I think) and I believe that went up unaided.

 

It also used to stop at the other Cross City line stations one of the three or four peak time only trains those stations enjoyed (each way) in those days.

 

Back then who would have thought the line would ever be as it is now, it was a toss up for closure in those days. 

[Swindon 123]

A three car class 170 has around 1250 bhp to play with.

 

They used to send class 118 Tyseley suburban units up Lickey, from a standing start, and they only had 600 bhp for three cars.

 

Mind you, they didn't do it so often in those days, so finding a timetable slot a few times a day wasn't so difficult, if slot is the right word for taking up a good quarter of the timetable in the hour.

 

A delight I never got round to trying (scarcity of trains) but sure wish now I had.

 

They also used to stop a Peak hauled XC service at Bromsgrove in the morning peak (Gloucester to Leeds I think) and I believe that went up unaided.

 

It also used to stop at the other Cross City line stations one of the three or four peak time only trains those stations enjoyed (each way) in those days.

 

Back then who would have thought the line would ever be as it is now, it was a toss up for closure in those days. 

Way, way back in the mists of time, late 70's early 80's, and the Hereford-Birmingham services went up the Lickey, and stopped at Bromsgrove. They were generally WR based 3 car units. I only worked over there a couple of times before the Hereford-Brums were diverted to run  via Stourbridge. It was a long haul up the Lickey in 1st gear, and all the drivers warned me to use the banker if you only had 3 engines. That said going via Stourbridge wasn't much better, as the climb up Old Hill was a brute, especially if you were booked to stop at Old Hill station. It sometimes seemed like an age before a unit would start away from there sometimes. In later years with the Tyseley hybrid 4 car units with the "big engined" 115 power cars, you could stop at Old Hill if you had a "small" engine out, but not if you had a "big" engine out. You had to miss the Old Hill stop if that happened, unless you were lucky to find the banker at Stourbridge.

 

Paul J.

[D854_Tiger]

Way, way back in the mists of time, late 70's early 80's, and the Hereford-Birmingham services went up the Lickey, and stopped at Bromsgrove. They were generally WR based 3 car units. I only worked over there a couple of times before the Hereford-Brums were diverted to run  via Stourbridge. It was a long haul up the Lickey in 1st gear, and all the drivers warned me to use the banker if you only had 3 engines. That said going via Stourbridge wasn't much better, as the climb up Old Hill was a brute, especially if you were booked to stop at Old Hill station. It sometimes seemed like an age before a unit would start away from there sometimes. In later years with the Tyseley hybrid 4 car units with the "big engined" 115 power cars, you could stop at Old Hill if you had a "small" engine out, but not if you had a "big" engine out. You had to miss the Old Hill stop if that happened, unless you were lucky to find the banker at Stourbridge.

 

Paul J.

 

I had the pleasure of a daily commute, for a while, Brum to Worcester and back in the evening, most trains went via Stourbridge (one every hour) and all bar one of them was all stations, that journey home seemed to take for ever and ever squared the closer you got to New Street.

 

Had the banker once from Stourbridge, a class 25 attached at the front as far as Langley Green, before we went up the hill the driver went in search of the watering can so he could top up the DMU's radiators, got the impression this was not unusual.

 

There were about four or maybe five XC services (only) that ran via Worcester and Bromsgrove but not timed well for my commute, more's the pity, because the difference that made could have made my day so much more bearable they were all non-stop as well.

[Robert Shrives]

Hi 

Having helped? to get 323s into service as a power controller for reg rail central back in the day many early runs were nail biters but as software was disabled the units grew in reliability. Recall all sorts of self protection on units killing units on frosty mornings and at Shentone having seen units provided to assist.  Having via several other control jobs migrated back to West Midlands it was good to find units had carried on bedding in and as ever a sole depot fleet- like 159s the staff know them inside and out so well not much to kill a unit.

 

I do recall problems at Gravelly hill on the up hill with stalled units but that was really early days , I do not think given a good rail head then climbing willnot be a problem, its the gravity assisted run down that will be a good white knuckle ride - known freights and railcars to fly through eventually stopping near Stoke works jn.   I am sure it will be alright ( said with everything crossed!)   

[Andrew Young]

One thing to consider when talking about units getting up Lickey, gear ratio can have a lot to do with it, the 170's being 100mph rated are quite high geared. Having spoken to drivers who've driven 158's and 170's up Lickey back in Central days, the gearing on the 158's is better for climbing hills from a standing start and got them over the top quicker.

 

The lack of turning back facility for Up trains is in my view a wasted opportunity! There have been several occasions when an XC northbound service has had to turn back at Bromsgrove, turn right at Stoke Works, reverse at Worcester SH and head for Brum via Kidderminster. But then, what do we know about running trains....

 

Cheers,

Andrew

[melmerby]

One thing to consider when talking about units getting up Lickey, gear ratio can have a lot to do with it, the 170's being 100mph rated are quite high geared. Having spoken to drivers who've driven 158's and 170's up Lickey back in Central days, the gearing on the 158's is better for climbing hills from a standing start and got them over the top quicker.

 

The lack of turning back facility for Up trains is in my view a wasted opportunity! There have been several occasions when an XC northbound service has had to turn back at Bromsgrove, turn right at Stoke Works, reverse at Worcester SH and head for Brum via Kidderminster. But then, what do we know about running trains....

 

Cheers,

Andrew

There are facing and trailing crossovers at the Up end of Bromsgrove station and there was also a down to up turnback at Droitwich.

However looking on Google Earth in 2015 the Droitwich crossover appears to have had one rail "plain lined" although the signalling was all still in place.

 

Keith

[Andrew Young]

Keith,

 

The crossovers at the Up end of Bromsgrove aren't signalled for up to down reversing moves, what we're talking about is having properly signalled reversing moves, not talking you by signals and crossovers verbally.

 

At Droitwich, the down to Up turn back doesn't have an FPL on it so you can't take a passenger train through it without someone coming along and clipping the points, which is why when we've done the move, we've had to go through to Shrub Hill to reverse.

 

Andrew

[Platform 1]

Any further progress here?  I'm reliably informed that the local press says the wires will be energised this week!

[melmerby]

Any further progress here?  I'm reliably informed that the local press says the wires will be energised this week!

Must have a look tomorrow, last time I looked a few weeks back little seemed to have been done since my last update.

 

Keith

[melmerby]

Any further progress here?  I'm reliably informed that the local press says the wires will be energised this week!

They would need a miracle to get any juice in the wires as this rather poor Mobile shot of the view North from St Godwald's Road bridge shows:

 

Most of, if not all the masts appear to have now been planted from Finstall Road southwards & through the station area but as yet no droppers or conductors.

Unfortunately they have now erected a rather high metal fence at both St Godwald's Road & Finstall Road bridge parapets so it is dificult to get a decent view any more.

 

I'll try and get some better shots next week with my camera.

 

Cheers

 

keith

Edited December 28, 2017 by melmerby

[Platform 1]

Thanks Keith.  Dunno where these local rags get their info from...

[melmerby]

Thanks Keith.  Dunno where these local rags get their info from...

The usual place - Some eager journo's mind

That appears to be where most "news" in the papers (all of 'em) seems to originate.

 

Keith

[D854_Tiger]

They would need a miracle to get any juice in the wires as this rather poor Mobile shot of the view North from St Godwald's Road bridge shows:

ST Godwalds North 7.jpg

 

Most of, if not all the masts appear to have now been planted from Finstall Road southwards & through the station area but as yet no droppers or conductors.

Unfortunately they have now erected a rather high metal fence at both St Godwald's Road & Finstall Road bridge parapets so it is dificult to get a decent view any more.

 

I'll try and get some better shots next week with my camera.

 

Cheers

 

keith

 

 

What's the betting all available electrification hands are busy somewhere else that we might know of.

[jamie92208]

What's the betting all available electrification hands are busy somewhere else that we might know of.

The local rag may have got it off some publicity given out to schools etc. IIRC the BTP spent several months attempting to educate kids near the Doncaster Leeds Line before that went live. They were probably all told to treat any wiring as live irrespective of the actual go live date.

 

Jamie

[melmerby]

The local rag may have got it off some publicity given out to schools etc. IIRC the BTP spent several months attempting to educate kids near the Doncaster Leeds Line before that went live. They were probably all told to treat any wiring as live irrespective of the actual go live date.

 

Jamie

http://www.bromsgroveadvertiser.co.uk/news/15676147.Warning_as_Bromsgrove_railway_set_for_electrification/

 

The latest news I heard from a press release or such like was that it would be finished in spring 2018 with electric Xcity trains running from the May 2018 timetable change.

No doubt it will need testing & commissioning before the public service starts.

 

keith

[jamie92208]

http://www.bromsgroveadvertiser.co.uk/news/15676147.Warning_as_Bromsgrove_railway_set_for_electrification/

 

The latest news I heard from a press release or such like was that it would be finished in spring 2018 with electric Xcity trains running from the May 2018 timetable change.

No doubt it will need testing & commissioning before the public service starts.

 

keith

That is very similar to the sort of warnings that we saw in the Leeds area. I suspect it's a fairly standard approach.

 

Jamie

[CovDriver]

http://www.bromsgroveadvertiser.co.uk/news/15676147.Warning_as_Bromsgrove_railway_set_for_electrification/

 

The latest news I heard from a press release or such like was that it would be finished in spring 2018 with electric Xcity trains running from the May 2018 timetable change.

No doubt it will need testing & commissioning before the public service starts.

 

keith

 

I've not heard of anything about this at work as I'm sure we need to do some route learning for us drivers and guards and that would include Coventry and Wolverhampton Depots as well as New St and there's a fair few members of traincrew to get through and we have some route learning going at the moment for the new Coventry - Leamington service which should start mid February.

 

I bet in reality the service will more than likely be December 2018 which was the original plan from day 1.

 

 

Cheers 

 

Colin

[melmerby]

 

I bet in reality the service will more than likely be December 2018 which was the original plan from day 1.

 

Cheers 

 

Colin

Which day 1?

 

It's already several years late!

The opening day for new services has moved several times already.

 

Keith

[TheSignalEngineer]

NE-SW electrification was Priority No.3 when I was a young lad on BR in the 1960s.

 

It was already assumed that WCML would be completed north of Weaver at some time as that scheme had already been drawn up and discussed with the Ministry.

This was to be followed firstly by Kings Cross to Edinburgh, then secondly Paddington to Bristol.

 

Third place on the spreadsheet was York to Bristol and extension to Swansea.

[Edwin_m]

NE-SW electrification was Priority No.3 when I was a young lad on BR in the 1960s.

 

It was already assumed that WCML would be completed north of Weaver at some time as that scheme had already been drawn up and discussed with the Ministry.

This was to be followed firstly by Kings Cross to Edinburgh, then secondly Paddington to Bristol.

 

Third place on the spreadsheet was York to Bristol and extension to Swansea.

Shouldn't that be "chalkboard" not "spreadsheet"? 

 

Surprising that Swansea was grouped with Cross Country.  Even then there were few trains that went via Cheltenham and Stoke Gifford into South Wales so not much synergy between those schemes. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Shouldn't that be "chalkboard" not "spreadsheet"? 

 

Surprising that Swansea was grouped with Cross Country.  Even then there were few trains that went via Cheltenham and Stoke Gifford into South Wales so not much synergy between those schemes. 

The driving factor on the NE-SW in the early and mid 1960s was not passenger services but the large quantity of coal, steel and associated traffic. Besides that unfitted traffic there were about 16 regular Class 4,5 and 6 trains each way on Lickey. 

 

Regarding Swansea, a large amount of freight traffic from the Neath/Port Talbot area went to the Midlands and Northeast. At the time Gloucester to STJ was proposed for electrification as part of the NE-SW scheme.

[melmerby]

Yesterday watching the diagram of the Cross City south on Railcam how easy delays build up was plain to see.

A train from Redditch was sitting in the platform at Barnt Green and departed, on time, towards Longbridge, meanwhile a Cross Country service was climbing the Lickey.

 

Problem: Another Cross City train was still in the platform at Longbridge!

As there isn't any catenary on the slow line until Longbridge the ex Redditch train had to stop on the main waiting for the Longridge train to depart.

This meant the Cross Country service was also brought to a stand still.

 

The ripple effect soon impacted all subsequent services.

Just like on a Motorway when someone slows down, all those behind brake progressively harder until 2 miles back traffic comes to a stop!

 

Hopefully the Longbridge services extension to Bromsgrove where they will sit in their own platform before turn back should help alleviate this problem.

 

Keith

[TheSignalEngineer]

The problems of signalling operation in the modern contract-driven railway. Nowadays no-one will make a decision, just like a call centre they only work to the script. Ask a question that doesn't appear on the standard answers and all you get is confusion.

[caradoc]

The problems of signalling operation in the modern contract-driven railway. Nowadays no-one will make a decision, just like a call centre they only work to the script. Ask a question that doesn't appear on the standard answers and all you get is confusion.

 

A bit unfair to blame the 'modern contract-driven railway' without knowing full details of the situation. Why was the Cross City train still at Longbridge - Presumably delayed, but for what reason ? Was it known that it would be delayed, and by how much, when the second Cross City train was signalled away from Barnt Green ? What would have been the implications had the second Cross City been held at Barnt Green, perhaps the repercussions would have been more serious overall than the delay to the Cross Country service ?