Smart Meter = smart move?

[hayfield]

1 minute ago, 30801 said:

 

One might question why prices were quite so high anyway since renewables provided 40% of the UK's energy last year and the cost of producing that went up not a jot.

 

I think most companies buy energy in advance, this perhaps kept prices lower at the back end of last year, but we are paying top prices now. Also it might be the case Ofgem are taking it easy on power providers to save more from collapsing

 

Wholesale prices have been well down for a month or so, its been a mild winter and stocks of gas are higher. Plus energy prices were cheaper than perhaps they should have been

 

I think the next big issue will be the phasing out of gas boilers !!!

[Reorte]

37 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

One might question why prices were quite so high anyway since renewables provided 40% of the UK's energy last year and the cost of producing that went up not a jot.

That leaves quite a lot, more than half, produced by other means (and some days renewables produces not a jot, or at least next to not a jot). And it's not as if any form of generation is just built and then completely left to it, everything has a cost to run even if it's more with some than others, and those costs are always affected by overall energy prices.

[hayfield]

36 minutes ago, Reorte said:

That leaves quite a lot, more than half, produced by other means (and some days renewables produces not a jot, or at least next to not a jot). And it's not as if any form of generation is just built and then completely left to it, everything has a cost to run even if it's more with some than others, and those costs are always affected by overall energy prices.

 

I have seen several articles on how energy costs are arrived at, I think they call it "the last cost". It certainly is based on the highest cost, which recently has been gas.

 

In my opinion renewable energy production should not be based on the price of gas, however I guess it has to be based on demand and production, like nuclear the biggest expense is the set up cost, running costs are minimal. Somehow we need to separate what is paid for renewable energy from cost of gas.

 

For the domestic providers we have a basic price, not based on either demand, production costs or gas price. Most companies are paying a pittance and customers seem to have no protection from the regulators

 

The system is broken and is taking an age to sort out. 

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

3 minutes ago, hayfield said:

The system is broken and is taking an age to sort out. 

The coal fired power system should never have been destroyed on mass until we had a fully sustainable replacement,this is all down to career politics and they should be accountable when they get it wrong.

Until the whole world get on board we are wasting out time and paying the price,this we only supply green energy is false advertising as until coal gas turbine are gone compleatly its rubbish.

Everything is broken with the qualified over skill and getting jobs on merit and working from the bottom up the ladder.

[Reorte]

54 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

I have seen several articles on how energy costs are arrived at, I think they call it "the last cost". It certainly is based on the highest cost, which recently has been gas.

 

In my opinion renewable energy production should not be based on the price of gas, however I guess it has to be based on demand and production, like nuclear the biggest expense is the set up cost, running costs are minimal. Somehow we need to separate what is paid for renewable energy from cost of gas.

 

For the domestic providers we have a basic price, not based on either demand, production costs or gas price. Most companies are paying a pittance and customers seem to have no protection from the regulators

 

The system is broken and is taking an age to sort out. 

 

Problem with separating out different types is that  you can't effectively buy different types, since what's being generated at any one time varies.

 

I said in an earlier post that I don't really have much of a problem with the idea that if you want to pay a company marketing itself as a renewables provider then that's what you do, you pay for their contribution to the common pool of electricity. And I still think that, but conversely you still make use of other power, so whilst you choose who you pay it makes more sense for what you pay to be more closely tied to the overall price. It works in other ways too; I've said before that I am not (to  put it mildly) keen on wind farms, and would prefer that our medium - long term goal was nuclear, but the fact is that some of my money ends up with the builders and operators of wind farms, and since they're contributing to the electricity I'm using then it makes sense that I do so.

 

What I'd be happy to do is to pay an additional overhead to go towards the development of fusion, although obviously adding any more to bills right now would go down like a lead balloon with the country at large.

[hayfield]

10 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

Problem with separating out different types is that  you can't effectively buy different types, since what's being generated at any one time varies.

 

I said in an earlier post that I don't really have much of a problem with the idea that if you want to pay a company marketing itself as a renewables provider then that's what you do, you pay for their contribution to the common pool of electricity. And I still think that, but conversely you still make use of other power, so whilst you choose who you pay it makes more sense for what you pay to be more closely tied to the overall price. It works in other ways too; I've said before that I am not (to  put it mildly) keen on wind farms, and would prefer that our medium - long term goal was nuclear, but the fact is that some of my money ends up with the builders and operators of wind farms, and since they're contributing to the electricity I'm using then it makes sense that I do so.

 

What I'd be happy to do is to pay an additional overhead to go towards the development of fusion, although obviously adding any more to bills right now would go down like a lead balloon with the country at large.

 

Sorry That is not what I am getting at, and I do agree that we need to reduce our dependency on fossil fuels

 

Firstly its electricity made from renewals and nuclear power automatically getting the highest rate. Why is it we have to give a minimum price guarantee for new nuclear without on the other hand putting in a price cap, having it both ways is anti consumer. The fact is with nuclear power the biggest cost is the build cost not running which in comparison is not very expensive

 

Like wise with renewable energy the biggest costs are the build costs, not the running costs. The trouble with wind and solar they are dependant on time and nature. But receiving the highest cost come what may again in my opinion is anti consumer.

When I bought my system it was costed out over the year, come rail or sunshine, day time or night.  

 

I costed out my system when a kwh cost me 16p and I could expect 3p for exporting. When it was installed shortly after I had to pay 18p but was able to obtain 5,5p per kwh

Now it costs me 35p per kwh to buy, at the moment I am not producing much but I am saving nearly twice as much

Exporting I am getting just under three times as much, but most energy companies are still paying 5p or less

 

Simply without any additional costs (other than having to pay more from what I am importing) my returns are much better than expected

Commercial companies would have made similar decisions, agreed at times of excess they get less, but is it right at times of higher need should the costs be based on another commodity ? 

[hayfield]

3 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

One might question why prices were quite so high anyway since renewables provided 40% of the UK's energy last year and the cost of producing that went up not a jot.

 

There are two differing things happening, world prices for gas have skyrocketed, but as I have been saying should renewable energy (and nuclear ) be charged exactly the same as gas when gas prices peak

 

Gas is our mainstay energy in winter and is bought in advance at market prices

[Reorte]

5 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

There are two differing things happening, world prices for gas have skyrocketed, but as I have been saying should renewable energy (and nuclear ) be charged exactly the same as gas when gas prices peak

 

Gas is our mainstay energy in winter and is bought in advance at market prices

Well yes, because like I said we pay for electricity, wherever it comes from. We all use that electricity generated by gas, whoever we actually pay the bill to. An increase in the cost of a component of power generation pushes up the cost of power. The presence of other components not affected by that still reduces the average (if we relied 100% on gas prices would've gone up further than they have done).

[Nick C]

3 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Well yes, because like I said we pay for electricity, wherever it comes from. We all use that electricity generated by gas, whoever we actually pay the bill to. An increase in the cost of a component of power generation pushes up the cost of power. The presence of other components not affected by that still reduces the average (if we relied 100% on gas prices would've gone up further than they have done).

But isn't that the problem - that the electricity prices have been set by the cost of gas, not the average cost of generation?

[hayfield]

3 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Well yes, because like I said we pay for electricity, wherever it comes from. We all use that electricity generated by gas, whoever we actually pay the bill to. An increase in the cost of a component of power generation pushes up the cost of power. The presence of other components not affected by that still reduces the average (if we relied 100% on gas prices would've gone up further than they have done).

 

 

Why are green prices rising too?

 

Octopus Energy:

 

“An outdated energy system means the price of renewables is tied to the price of gas, so rising gas prices also impact renewable prices.” GEUK: “No matter the source of energy, if there is more demand than supply, the price goes up.12 May 2022

 

According to the press a few months back the government are looking into a new system of pricing renewables so that the direct/automatic link is broken in favour of the consumer 

[Reorte]

Just now, Nick C said:

But isn't that the problem - that the electricity prices have been set by the cost of gas, not the average cost of generation?

 

I admit that I'm making an assumption that if they were entirely down to gas the price rises would've been much greater. Gas just has a big impact because it's the largest part of our generation mix.

[Reorte]

8 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Why are green prices rising too?

 

Octopus Energy:

 

“An outdated energy system means the price of renewables is tied to the price of gas, so rising gas prices also impact renewable prices.” GEUK: “No matter the source of energy, if there is more demand than supply, the price goes up.12 May 2022

 

According to the press a few months back the government are looking into a new system of pricing renewables so that the direct/automatic link is broken in favour of the consumer 

 

It's the price of electricity overall that's rising. There is no separate renewables grid. It's not an "outdated" system, it's a fact that all generation feeds in to the same grid. What would those who just want to pay for renewables do on those days when they're not providing much? If we manage to move electricity generation off gas, to the point where even if there is some but it's not all that significant, then gas prices won't affect the price very much (but the weather might).

 

You resent the price impact of gas, I resent the impact of all the renewables on the world around me, but neither of us can currently ignore them and practically just get our power, unaffected by anything else, from the sources we'd prefer, and hence what we pay is also heavily influenced by it.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Reorte

[hayfield]

28 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

It's the price of electricity overall that's rising. There is no separate renewables grid. It's not an "outdated" system, it's a fact that all generation feeds in to the same grid. What would those who just want to pay for renewables do on those days when they're not providing much? If we manage to move electricity generation off gas, to the point where even if there is some but it's not all that significant, then gas prices won't affect the price very much (but the weather might).

 

You resent the price impact of gas, I resent the impact of all the renewables on the world around me, but neither of us can currently ignore them and practically just get our power, unaffected by anything else, from the sources we'd prefer, and hence what we pay is also heavily influenced by it.

 

 

Where did I say I resented the price of gas ? A figment of your imagination

 

What I am saying and many others also been saying for a long time and Ofgem are looking into it at this moment, this is what Octopus Energy  stated early last year about the electrical retail price

 

“An outdated energy system means the price of renewables is tied to the price of gas,

 

Nothing about resenting the price of gas, but of the cost of electricity being uncompetitive as its tied to the cost of gas

[APOLLO]

As always, follow the money.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jan/12/british-gas-owner-forecasts-eightfold-rise-in-earnings-amid-soaring-gas-prices

 

Brit15

 

 

[Adrian Stevenson]

Having a nightmare with my 88 year old Dad’s supplier EDF. Dad paid his last bill in full on Dec23rd. His home is all electric. He has a smart meter installed and I can track his usage via the app on my phone. He has just received a bill for the period Dec 23 to Jan 23rd. There is a discrepancy of over £300 compared to what they are asking for compared to figures shown on the app. Having “spoke” with them today via their chat app they are adamant the bill is correct and is for useage and not an estimate. How can this be? What is the point of a smart meter. Formal complaint going in tomorrow 😡

[hayfield]

12 minutes ago, Adrian Stevenson said:

Having a nightmare with my 88 year old Dad’s supplier EDF. Dad paid his last bill in full on Dec23rd. His home is all electric. He has a smart meter installed and I can track his usage via the app on my phone. He has just received a bill for the period Dec 23 to Jan 23rd. There is a discrepancy of over £300 compared to what they are asking for compared to figures shown on the app. Having “spoke” with them today via their chat app they are adamant the bill is correct and is for useage and not an estimate. How can this be? What is the point of a smart meter. Formal complaint going in tomorrow 😡

 

 

Adrian

 

Its quite simple get a latest meter reading and check it against the last bill, the bill should tell you exactly what you need, which are the readings for the start and the end of the billing period. Check the last reading on the bill against the reading today (or when ever).  they should be quite similar.  It is my understanding that if your payments are up to date they cannot force you to pay more.

 

Its the meter readings that is important. if all of a sudden the usage has gone through the roof (check previous readings for the same month of the year) the meter may have a fault !!

 

Make a written complaint or speak with the complaints department. If you get no where go to the ombudsman. I believe the electric suppliers have been told not to ask for excessive overpayments by the government and the regulator

[Jonboy]

Bear in mind that the smart meter is the actual meter, that measures the supply, in the meter cupboard/fuse cupboard/broom cupboard/whatever awkward location yours is fitted within. They don’t do the actual billing calculations in the meter but on the computer system of the energy company.

 

The little shiny screen in the house is called an in house display (IHD) and is to help keep track of the daily use and help people manage their own usage(reduce in theory if you believe the claims).

 

There is no guarantee that the IHD has the correct rates on it (it should, but relies on the energy supplier transmitting the rates to the smart meter and it into the IHD which doesn’t always work). Particularly if it’s an older version 1 meter and current supplier doesn’t have access to it (common after the number of suppliers that went bust last year)

 

The IHD also doesn’t typically (depending on setup by the energy supplier) include the daily standing charges or VAT in its figures.

 

Does the bill say it is based on an actual or smart reading or is it estimated,for any reason?

[Adrian Stevenson]

Thanks.

 

They say the bill is based on the meter reading.

[Jonboy]

Oh and if you get in long patterns of waiting on hold/multiple contacts without resolution etc keep a log of times and dates, and then drop the list into any formal complaint if you make one. I had a decent wedge of compensation from another energy company for the inconvenience.

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Adrian Stevenson said:

Thanks.

 

They say the bill is based on the meter reading.

 

Have you both 

Checked the meter reading?

Checked previous year(s) usage over the same period?

[Adrian Stevenson]

Will check on Dad’s meter on Thursday.

 

 Thank to everyone for the kind and helpful advice.

 

Cheers, Ade.

[MarkC]

Well, the mail I have been expecting has hit my inbox.

 

Apparently my (normal) meter is approaching the end of its certification period, so I've been <invited> to book the installation of a replacement meter, which would, of course be a spy jobbie - oops, a <smart> meter...

 

I don't want one of those blasted things, but the blurb on the "information link" in the mail claims that normal meters are <hard to find>. That usually translates as "we can't be bothered".

 

I seriously don't want to be railroaded into having a <smart> meter, but what can I do?

[Reorte]

15 hours ago, MarkC said:

Well, the mail I have been expecting has hit my inbox.

 

Apparently my (normal) meter is approaching the end of its certification period, so I've been <invited> to book the installation of a replacement meter, which would, of course be a spy jobbie - oops, a <smart> meter...

 

I don't want one of those blasted things, but the blurb on the "information link" in the mail claims that normal meters are <hard to find>. That usually translates as "we can't be bothered".

 

I seriously don't want to be railroaded into having a <smart> meter, but what can I do?

Well they can't force you to have a smart meter so if they insist the old one needs replacing then it's up to them to find a suitable one.

[phil-b259]

19 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Well they can't force you to have a smart meter so if they insist the old one needs replacing then it's up to them to find a suitable one.

 

Though this may be a 'Smart meter' with the 'smart' elements permanently disabled (thus complying with the consumers right to not have a 'smart meter' forced on them).

 

No sane manufacturer of meters is going to be in the business of making 'dumb' meters what with the Government sponsored propaganda which is pushing them over having a proper energy policy (which would involve upgrading housing and building new generation capacity and not just penalising people for heavy usage regardless of their ability to change that because of poverty / social circumstances).

 

As such I can well believe there may be difficulties in sourcing true 'dumb' meters 

Edited March 2, 2023 by phil-b259

[Reorte]

Yes, that sounds like a reasonable possibility. The one they fitted to me three years ago is a small box with a digital reading, so I wonder if that's what it was.