Peco Electrofrog Points - one dead closing rail after the snip (x3)

[YK 50A]

Hi all,

Bit of an odd problem that I've never experienced before and cannot explain.  I've spent a day investigating and rectifying and while I'm the first to admit to my limitations, I am not new to laying track and Electrofrogs.

 

I laid a section of track with 9 x Peco Code 100 Electrofrog points a few months ago.  The frogs are independently switched and I'm on DCC.  We enjoyed a few weeks of testing (playing trains) and all worked perfectly, 0-4-0 locos happily crawling through the points.

 

I took me quite a while to ballast and "decorate" the area as it will be difficult to access once completed - I wanted to get it right (farm scene, small station, far end of the railway yard).  All was ready to rewire today and when firing things back up, the 0-4-0s stuck after the "snip" on 3 of the points (arranged as a pair of crossovers) when diverging.  If I had only tested 0-6-0s and longer, I might not have noticed.  I got the meter out and the relevant closing rails between the snip and the frog were dead on all 3.

 

There had been no heat applied that I am aware of (there has now as I have had to retro-solder droppers to the offending closing rails) and wondered if anyone could offer some kind of explanation so that it doesn't happen again.

 

Apologies for the terminology and many thanks in anticipation,

 

Alun

[Ray H]

Could the problem be adhesive having worked its way into the rail joiners and preventing electrical contact between blade and closure rail?

[YK 50A]

Could the problem be adhesive having worked its way into the rail joiners and preventing electrical contact between blade and closure rail?

 

Thanks Ray, probably my attempt at an explanation, but there is no connection between the blade and the closure rail as they've had "the snip" and are powered from the frog, if you follow.  I presume there is an internal bit of wire which connects the closure rails to each other and to the frog.  If it was just the one point, I would say hey ho, but 3 of 9 and 3 of 4 in the same area and the same closure rail but left and right hand points.    Nothing new in terms of ballasting and wiring either.

[Ray H]

The moving parts of the points - the blades - are linked to the adjacent (closure) rail by a fishplate, a joint which isn't to my knowledge normally changed when the points are modified for DCC.

 

The opposite end of the closure rail is (normally?) supplied with an insulation piece between it and the wing rail. However, there is a wire attached to the underneath of the closure rail (and linked to the frog/crossing rails) that is usually where the snip takes place for live frog operation. The frog is then switched electrically by some form of switching which is "driven" by the operation of the point.

 

An electrical link is then added between each closure rail and the adjacent stock rail to compensate for the snip and to eliminate the risk of the reverse side of the blade not making and maintaining an electrical contact with the stock rail.

 

Consequently I am mystified as to why you are finding the closure rail electrically dead - unless you have bonded the blade rather than the closure rail to the stock rail.

[96701]

Thanks Ray, probably my attempt at an explanation, but there is no connection between the blade and the closure rail as they've had "the snip" and are powered from the frog, if you follow.  I presume there is an internal bit of wire which connects the closure rails to each other and to the frog.  If it was just the one point, I would say hey ho, but 3 of 9 and 3 of 4 in the same area and the same closure rail but left and right hand points.    Nothing new in terms of ballasting and wiring either.

Have you provided a link between the stock rails and the closure rails?

[YK 50A]

Consequently I am mystified as to why you are finding the closure rail electrically dead - unless you have bonded the blade rather than the closure rail to the stock rail.

 

Have you provided a link between the stock rails and the closure rails?

 

To clarify and in case my terminology is lacking, it's the diverging piece of track between the snip (after the bond which is correctly wired) and the frog which of course includes part of the frog which isn't solid metal hence there must be a piece of wire connecting the 2 diverging rails/outer frog(?) and the v of the frog.  I'm equally mystified.

 

Alun

[jpendle]

I'm not that familar with OO but surely an Electrofrog point doesn't have any plastic bits except for the check rails and the sleepers

 

Regards,

 

John P

[YK 50A]

This isn't one of the points in questions, but is to the same design, which has varied over the years...

[YK 50A]

I'm not that familar with OO but surely an Electrofrog point doesn't have any plastic bits except for the check rails and the sleepers

 

If you look at the photo I attached previously, you will see a big arrow pointing at the closure rail which is at issue on all 3 points.  Above it (unintended comparison as I hadn't read your post) is a dead frog point.  On the live frog point, you can see that the frog isn't solid metal.  From what I know, the frogs on Peco N gauge live frogs aren't solid metal either.

 

I was looking for help and hopefully the picture will at least provide some clarification.

 

Alun

[DCB]

Wondering if you have snipped the wrong wires.  That rail is supposed to be bonded to the frog and switched by the frog polarity switch see my altered photo.   Personally I find this breed of points with plastic springs and without the contact tags on the blades to be entirely useless unless the stock rails are bonded and so I won't use them

Edited May 9, 2017 by DavidCBroad

[YK 50A]

Wondering if you have snipped the wrong wires.  That rail is supposed to be bonded to the frog and switched by the frog polarity switch see my altered photo.   Personally I find this breed of points with plastic springs and without the contact tags on the blades to be entirely useless unless the stock rails are bonded and so I won't use them

 

Thanks David and the that piece of rail is indeed supposed to be bonded to the frog - but one of the 2 isn't.  However, the snips are in the right place, the points worked fine before decorating and there's another 6 working as expected.  I wondered if there was a common fault, but seemingly not.  The only other thought I had is that in moving the board it might have flexed a little and could that have broken the internal wiring in the frog?

 

Having soldered additional droppers to the stock rails, all is well, but would like to avoid it happening again.

 

Alun

[brigo]

I suspect that it is faulty manufacture. I happen to have a curved version of of the Code 100 electrofrog point on my desk. Just checked it and found one of the welds on the link wire although touching the rail moved when prodded with a small screw driver. Before you ballasted, the wire was probably touching the rail and making a connection but glue has now crept in and insulated that connection. I don't know how Peco weld the connections, individually or maybe all at once, but there is obviously a problem.

 

Brian 

[YK 50A]

I suspect that it is faulty manufacture. I happen to have a curved version of of the Code 100 electrofrog point on my desk. Just checked it and found one of the welds on the link wire although touching the rail moved when prodded with a small screw driver. Before you ballasted, the wire was probably touching the rail and making a connection but glue has now crept in and insulated that connection. I don't know how Peco weld the connections, individually or maybe all at once, but there is obviously a problem.

 

Brian 

 

Thank you Brian, I think you're right!  I did check the underside of the frog on a brand new point and all was solid.  Reading your post, I've just pulled another out of the pack and one of the wires came away after a little prod with a screwdriver.  Only another dozen or so laid but not yet ballasted on the near side of the layout - but at least I can easily access them if there's a problem.

 

Alun

[dunnyrail]

I never trust the Manufacturere press fit wiring, preferring to add my own jumpers to all points. I have done this to the Peco Code 75 on my Coal Mine Layout and do it to all my Peco G Track on my Garden Line. It may be belt and braces but does pay dividends in the long run. Plus saving time with irritating faults.

 

A simple circuit tester also pays dividends, I made one many years ago with a few switches, Crock Clips, bulbs, wire, buzzer, small Electrical Box and a Battery. It proves connections and sorts out a multitude of issues with continuity. These days I would but a cheepo Multimeter from the likes of Maplin, Proops or a DIY Shed for around a Tenner or less.

JonD

[YK 50A]

I never trust the Manufacturere press fit wiring, preferring to add my own jumpers to all points. I have done this to the Peco Code 75 on my Coal Mine Layout and do it to all my Peco G Track on my Garden Line. It may be belt and braces but does pay dividends in the long run. Plus saving time with irritating faults.

 

A simple circuit tester also pays dividends, I made one many years ago with a few switches, Crock Clips, bulbs, wire, buzzer, small Electrical Box and a Battery. It proves connections and sorts out a multitude of issues with continuity. These days I would but a cheepo Multimeter from the likes of Maplin, Proops or a DIY Shed for around a Tenner or less.

JonD

 

Thanks and yes, my metre has been invaluable.  I can't remember how much I paid for it, but less than a tenner.

 

What threw mew is that I've never had a problem before.  I sold my old Peco points as a very used job lot, they had been laid, ballasted and pulled up several times but they just kept working.  With hindsight, I should have kept them.  Also, I hadn't modified them and went from DC to DCC without issue.  Brand new points, fully modified, nothing but problems.  Most of the track is now laid, just the engine shed to go, but I will be adding a pair of droppers to the frogs when I get to it.

 

Alun

[dunnyrail]

Thanks and yes, my metre has been invaluable.  I can't remember how much I paid for it, but less than a tenner.

 

What threw mew is that I've never had a problem before.  I sold my old Peco points as a very used job lot, they had been laid, ballasted and pulled up several times but they just kept working.  With hindsight, I should have kept them.  Also, I hadn't modified them and went from DC to DCC without issue.  Brand new points, fully modified, nothing but problems.  Most of the track is now laid, just the engine shed to go, but I will be adding a pair of droppers to the frogs when I get to it.

 

Alun

Not sure how you will be powering the frogs. On my small 00 line I have used Frog Juicers, with a little planning to resolve issues with locomotive bridging 2 frogs on the same juicer they work great. My linne has just 2 juicers.

JonD

[YK 50A]

Not sure how you will be powering the frogs. On my small 00 line I have used Frog Juicers, with a little planning to resolve issues with locomotive bridging 2 frogs on the same juicer they work great. My linne has just 2 juicers.

JonD

 

Hi,

 

I am familiar with frog juicers and they are great.  However, it's irrelevant to the issue!    The link wires in the frog are broken so you have to solder additional droppers to power all the rails.

 

Alun

[dunnyrail]

Hi,

 

I am familiar with frog juicers and they are great.  However, it's irrelevant to the issue!    The link wires in the frog are broken so you have to solder additional droppers to power all the rails.

 

Alun

Thread drift, the great problem with oldies like myself!

JonD