Newcomer

[stokesy11]

Dear All, I am about to return to railway modelling after a long hiatus because I will soon have enough space for what I hope to be a substantial layout. I have toyed with using N gauge, but 00 seems to offer more to me right now for what I would like to do.

 

My question is, if I wanted to run full length trains with a rake of 8-9 carriages + loco in 00, on a loop type layout, what kind of space would be the minimum? Minimum being one that does not have tight curves that would squeeze everything but to have reasonable curves. Same question would apply to N gauge.

 

I am hoping to have a space 5.5m by 3.6m (approx 15' x 12') 

[Dancess]

Regarding the amount of space you have, I have 13 ft x 8 ft and am into N gauge - the only problem I have is that sometimes you can have too much room!

[Nearholmer]

The space you cite is plenty big enough for a circuit of double track in 00. In fact, it's big enough for something quite interesting I 0, let alone 00, and I would advocate that you think about that option too.

 

Enjoy!

 

Kevin

[DCB]

Sounds like a nice space.  

 

The thing to remember is the equation. N = 00 squared X 0.75.  You can't get double the amount in the space but double the amount doubled! and locos coaches etc  cost three quarters as much.

 

Joking apart an 00 coach is near as dammit a foot long, so is a loco.   8 old 57ft coaches are about as long as 7 BR Mk1 or Mk 2. You want 3 ft radius for reasonable curves so that is doubled so you need 6 feet curve plus 9ft train so thats a straight platform long enough for the train plus the curves and your 15 feet is gone, without any pointwork.

 

Points are about 10" long (3ft radius) so a crossover is 20" so if you want platforms for 8 coaches in 15 ft in 00 you are looking at a terminus.. CJFreezer has some good ideas in 60 Plans for small layouts/ Larger Layouts/ trackplans for termini.

 

Otherwise a small station without the capability to handle expresses stopping but with a local passenger service stopping,turning back etc  goods yard etc, even the MPD for a station just down the line can be a good scenario.   My uncompleted loft layout had the premise that the Terminus was just down the line beyond the tunnel and the lavish MPD served it so locos went off shed to the Hidden sidings and reappeared with a train and later trains came through and shortly after the loco came back tender first for servicing.  That way with curved points on the long  hidden siding approach I can run 10 coach trains on a 15ft long layout despite my(only) through station only having platforms for 4 or 5 coaches.    If required expresses can be halted at signals because of line occupation problems.

 

You could put the platforms around a curve, they look a lot better than straight ones, Cheltenham still has a sharp curve through platforms after a dead straight run in from the north and pretty good one from the south so there is a prototype.

 

If you go N a "W" shape layout with a peninsula like a 1/2 size US H0 basement layout might be fun.   But please no straight platforms with bends at the end.

 

Get a pen and a bit of paper and start doodling.

[The Johnster]

What period and area are you modelling, stoksey?  I ask not just out of interest, but because it is relevant to the size of coaches and hence the length of the trains.  A 'modern image' mk3/4/Pendelino etc coach is 75 or even 80 feet long, some GWR ones are 70', but BR mk1/2s, LNER, and Southerns are 64', and LMS seemed to like 60'.  A coach on a 'traditional' steam /green diesel railway equals 3 goods wagons more or less, and 8 of them equate to a 24 wagon goods train.

 

I work to the very general principle that your longest train should be a third of the scenic length in track run of the layout if it is a terminus, and a quarter for a through station.  This allows for the train to sit in a platform clear of everything else, a station throat of pointwork at each end, incorporating the connections to goods yard and/or engine shed, and avoids the appearance of the railway disappearing directly into tunnel, leaving a bit of space for modelling scenery or buildings.  It should also allow you to make your platforms slightly longer than the trains, which improves the look considerably and avoids things looking too cramped.

 

Using that rule, a 60' coach is 10" by the time you allow for the couplings, and a 75' over a foot; the vast open prairies of your 15' space suddenly look a bit small now, don't they?  The good news is that you also have 12' sideways. which is room to model the station partly on one of the curves; a 3' radius main line minimum curve coming out of the fiddle yard leaves a good 8' before the other wall, plus 15 along the other straight, plus another 8' on the other side; 30 plus feet of track to play with, fine for an 8 coach train of BR mk1 or similar stock.  If you were to use the time honoured dodge of your station being the fiddle yard entrance at one end, so that you only have to model half of it, that is plenty of room for your purposes and you might even be able to indulge in a bit of open country running!

 

Another space saver if you are going to be using rtr stock is to use larger radius no.3 or no.4 setrack curves and pointwork in the fiddle yard; nobody can see it and the trains will run ok over it even if they look a bit silly with such sharp angles between the coaches.  You will run into trouble with this if you intend to use kits or scratchbuilt stock, though.

 

Welcome back to the madness, I mean hobby, and good luck.  You will find this site very helpful for dealing with any problem that might come up; the only silly questions are the ones that are not asked.  See you at Warley with the finished layout next year, then...

[Chimer]

Going on from from the last two replies, in that space I think I would be tempted to try one of two possibilities ...... just outlines to give an idea ......

 

 

or if you don't like a 180 degree bend all in view (though, noting the Johnster's recommendations, it does give 25' of track length to play with against around 17' below) ....

 

 

In both cases the fiddle yard would along the bottom and a station on the curve (which would obviously have to straighten out a bit at the throats).  In the second one, the straight section down the right could be a scenic feature on the main line (as shown), or with the main line hidden behind a backscene, a goods yard or shed linked to the station.  As David suggests, I wouldn't try to make the station big enough for the longest trains, and in the second one, you could do ends of platforms only coming out from under a high level station building.  Note the access hole(s) in the top corner(s).

 

Just some thoughts to give ideas.  In that space, the options are endless!

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[The Johnster]

You seem to be thinking along the right lines (sorry), stokesy, but if you wouldn't mind some further comments...  I prefer the second of those basic outlines, with the very gentle curve on the longest exposed 'scenic' stretch; to my mind a gentle curve looks better than a dead straight on a model (unless the model is of a dead straight prototype), and aids the management of sightlines and blending of backscences.  Both are quite practicable schemes and the first one was what was in my mind when I wrote the previous post.  I rather like the idea of observing trains from the outside of a long curve, the perspective changing from one side of the train to head on and then to the other side as it passes.

 

But be careful of having sharp setrack curves immediately inside your scenic breaks.  They will be horribly visible from outside the bridge/tunnel, and your coaches will turn unrealistically sharply into them at speed while still visible, which will destroy your carefully constructed illusion of a fast main line!  Bringing the scenic breaks out by a coach length knocks 2 feet off your visible run for plan one, and 4 for plan two, which is then down to 13 feet!  You have about 9 feet of straight space at the bottom for the loops of your fiddle yard, which will be very rapidly eaten into by pointwork, even setrack, and you may find that curved turnouts will be useful between the straight section at the bottom and the scenic breaks as David suggests are necessary; beware of reducing the inside radius of these below 3 if you are planning on running main line trains with big engines and long coaches.

 

Be careful of the width of your baseboards as well.  At the usual tabletop height of model railways, about 3 feet is the maximum that you can stretch to to retrieve derailed stock, and anything requiring careful handling like uncoupling is difficult more than 2 feet in.  For plan 2,  I would recommend a full backscene dividing the view of the layout into 2 sections to hide the fiddler's elbow corner in the tunnel at the top right; otherwise it'll look very odd to have your loco running in a direction 270 degrees away from the back end of it's own train (Darjeeling-Himalayan and some Swiss oddities excepted!).

 

Bearing in mind what I just said about baseboard width, the fiddle yard section looks a bit narrow to be capable of much more than 4 or 5 roads in each direction, some of which are not going to be able to hold your longest trains; don't forget you need to be able to get your fingers in between stock to handle it and minimum spacing between roads will not allow this.  This does not give a massive storage capacity!

 

You will begin to see how things eat into the space you have available, and N gauge isn't, as has been pointed out, half the size of 00 despite being half the scale!  To go back to your original question, what kind of space would be the minimum, a quick answer would be 'the maximum possible', and the maximum possible is 15 x 12 feet.  A double track main line with 8 coach expresses and 20+ wagon freights is do-able in this space, but with compromises, and you are the only person who can decide what compromises are acceptable.  My suggestions involve setrack curves which will restrict you to using rtr stock, and there may come a time when you wish to 'progress' to kit built or scratchbuilt which will not be able to run on these plans.

 

I am assuming that, as well as the station, you will want to include an engine shed/MPD/TMD and a goods yard.  I would place the loco facilities on the 'outside' of the main line as they will involve mostly light engine movements which it does not matter so much that you cannot easily reach, and the goods yard on the 'inside' where you can get at it for shunting, which involves coupling and uncoupling, but a further compromise is involved here; the closer you lay track to the centre of the circle, the sharper the curves will need to be, and you may have problems propelling longer cuts of wagons into sidings smoothly, especially if there are reverse curves involved!

 

Nearholmer suggests 0 gauge, but I really can't see how a double track main line with acceptable train lengths and curvature can be achieved in the space available.

[devondynosoar118]

You could run some great goods services in that space, supported by some secondary passenger trains featuring shorter trains of older cascaded mainline coaches. Freights varied greatly in length from huge mineral trains and block freights to shorter trip workings and offer a much higher operational potential as well as looking less compromised on tighter radii. The other bonus with freight is that kits of wagons are cheaper and offer a great way to learn the skills needed for more complex construction.

More and more great/interesting goods and secondary passenger locos are becoming available RTR in all common scales. Bigger locos also ended up on secondary and freight duties when past their passenger carrying prime or nearer withdrawal.

The above would be true for any scale. Both 4mm/OO and 7mm/O offer the chance for scale 3 link couplings so you can be the shunter and driver of your freight yard, N offers the chance to model later time periods with long block trains and you can now get automatic couplings off the shelf in the scale.

Freight facilities, excluding large marshalling yards, were also often more space efficient than passenger facilities as they needed to be near the industry they served and near industrial centres in towns, where space was more important.

If you want some idea of the variety of freight traffic then Bob Essery's books have superb and realistic detail on all aspects and greater detail on passenger services for smaller spaces. I also like this amazing site for lineside industry/goods- http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/12-linind/012-index.htm

Freight also offers much more opportunity for grimy realism and a bit of real world dilapidation as freight was a business of volume and efficiency not shiny aspiration.

[JST]

I am building a layout with a through station which will take 10 coaches. The layout is 30 feet long and I can just get away with it. Any longer would look a bit odd and compromise station approach point work. I have four main line loops with points which enable trains to go from the outer to inner track before the station and back again after the station. Using Peco long points it is just doable in 30 feet but still a bit of a squeeze. As has been said above, 15 feet disappears very quickly when you start laying track!

 

Hope it goes OK.

[melmerby]

I am building a layout with a through station which will take 10 coaches. The layout is 30 feet long and I can just get away with it. Any longer would look a bit odd and compromise station approach point work. I have four main line loops with points which enable trains to go from the outer to inner track before the station and back again after the station. Using Peco long points it is just doable in 30 feet but still a bit of a squeeze. As has been said above, 15 feet disappears very quickly when you start laying track!

 

Hope it goes OK.

I've got about 20' x 12' and found that running anything over loco + 7 coaches is just a no-no in 00. I've had to re-jig the track several times to get a decent flow around curves and onto platforms without it looking ridiculous.

I have a folded 8 configuration with a branch off to a terminal station & engine shed with turntable and little in the way of goods facilities (but I'm working on that)

 

Starting again I would probably go for 30' x 12' in 00 or stick with my 20' x 12' and go "N"

 

Keith

[Chimer]

I know where you're both coming from, on my 5'3" x 4'9" 00 roundy 7 or 10 coaches do look a bit silly too, though I do think I could cope a bit better with 20 or 30 feet ....

 

A loco at one end of the platform chasing its brake coach at the other end is an interesting sight  

[DCB]

I know where you're both coming from, on my 5'3" x 4'9" 00 roundy 7 or 10 coaches do look a bit silly too, though I do think I could cope a bit better with 20 or 30 feet ....

 

A loco at one end of the platform chasing its brake coach at the other end is an interesting sight

We used to be able to attach the loco to the back of its own train on my son's Triang layout! 

 

I have a through 4 road FY about 15 feet long from wall to wall but as the track splits on the approach curve and tracks converge on the other curve it holds 12 coach trains.   There is no reason the trains cant be longer than the scenic part of the layout, or longer than the platforms or goods loops except at termini.  But even then Bournemouth West had 12 coach trains and 8 coach platforms.  I can't see much point in running 12 coach trains through a six foot ish scenic area but that's what you have at Sapperton between short and long tunnels on the GWR Swindon - Gloucester line.

[NittenDormer]

Do what I did and spend some time 'lurking'and reading. Check out a few layouts and track plans at random, some will give you an idea of what lookks right, what works etc. But always remember - the final decision is yours. Of course I can't think of any by name now that I need to.

[Pete the Elaner]

What period and area are you modelling, stoksey?  I ask not just out of interest, but because it is relevant to the size of coaches and hence the length of the trains.  A 'modern image' mk3/4/Pendelino etc coach is 75 or even 80 feet long, some GWR ones are 70', but BR mk1/2s, LNER, and Southerns are 64', and LMS seemed to like 60'.  A coach on a 'traditional' steam /green diesel railway equals 3 goods wagons more or less, and 8 of them equate to a 24 wagon goods train.

 

I work to the very general principle that your longest train should be a third of the scenic length in track run of the layout if it is a terminus, and a quarter for a through station.  This allows for the train to sit in a platform clear of everything else, a station throat of pointwork at each end, incorporating the connections to goods yard and/or engine shed, and avoids the appearance of the railway disappearing directly into tunnel, leaving a bit of space for modelling scenery or buildings.  It should also allow you to make your platforms slightly longer than the trains, which improves the look considerably and avoids things looking too cramped.

 

 

I agree with everything I have read on this thread, especially the above guidelines.

 

I wanted to model the WCML & found a real location which breaks all these rules.

My 6 track section fits into 15'x8'. The compromises are no sidings, no pointwork in the scenic area & less signals than I would like. The scenic area is only about 8' long so a full length train has started to disappear before it has finished appearing. This is entirely prototypical but is not to everyone's taste.

 

By all means look at other layouts, but also look at the real railway.

Make a list of things you really want to model, prioritise them & prepare to not include them all.