Saint query

[Clearwater]

Hi

 

Does anyone know whether Cardiff Canton allocated Saints would have worked towards Birmingham? Also, if anyone happens to know 2929's allocation history that would also be appreciated! I know it started life at Canton and ended at Bristol but any intervening knowledge would be very helpful

 

Kind regards

 

David

[Clearwater]

An additional follow up question.  Is there any difference between the Saint and Castle class driving wheels?  They seem to be the same diameter and number of spoke unless I've misunderstood

 

David

[firebirduk]

An additional follow up question.  Is there any difference between the Saint and Castle class driving wheels?  They seem to be the same diameter and number of spoke unless I've misunderstood

 

David

 

 

Hi David,

 

Yes there is a difference.  Check out this website:

 

https://www.ultrascale.uk/eshop/products/CAT001

 

Lists the three types of 6' 8 1/2" driving wheels

 

Mike Spence

[Clearwater]

Thanks MIke - much appreciated. For the initiated, i.e. Me!, what do the various initials after the spoke number mean?

 

David

Edited May 29, 2017 by Clearwater

[Weaselfish]

Hi

 

Does anyone know whether Cardiff Canton allocated Saints would have worked towards Birmingham? Also, if anyone happens to know 2929's allocation history that would also be appreciated! I know it started life at Canton and ended at Bristol but any intervening knowledge would be very helpful

 

Kind regards

 

David

On 11 October 1947 2906 Lady of Lynn from Canton certainly worked to Birmingham on a passenger train. As I type I am looking at a photo of her at Snow Hill. The details given on the back of the photo state that 2906 had worked up from Cardiff that day via Hereford. The photo is copyrighted so I can't post it, but it's negative CE7/11 from the PJ Garland collection, currently distributed by Roger Carpenter photographs.

[Western Star]

https://www.ultrascale.uk/eshop/products/CAT001

 

Lists the three types of 6' 8 1/2" driving wheels

From the pictures of the actual 4mm wheels - the illustrations seem to show wheels which were manufactured after the GWR changed the design of the Star / Saint wheels at some point in the period 1905-1910.  When the Stars were built initially the wheel boss appeared to be circular in nature compared to the later version...  after a few years and probably after the introduction of the Saints the wheel boss was enlarged and became more "pear-drop" in shape.

 

I have not seen any definitive explanation for this alteration in the design of the Saint and Star wheels...  I can offer a suggestion.  That the change was introduced, apparently, after the GWR commenced building of the Saints may be an indication that there was some aspect of the operation of the early Saints which was not acceptable.  I suggest that the early Saints suffered from the wheels shifting on the axles as a result of greater forces than experienced with the Stars.  To counteract the rotation of a wheel on an axle the boss was increased in size, maybe also in length, in order that the axle could be pressed home with a greater force (or the bigger boss gripped the axle more than before) and the assembly provided with a key driven into a slot cut along the bore of the boss / along the wheel seat on the axle.

 

So there was at least two further styles of 6'8" wheels...  both with smaller bosses than became the norm (and as original fitment to Castles).

Edited May 31, 2017 by Western Star

[DCB]

The biggest difference between Saint wheels and Star/Castle is the crank throw which is 15" on the Saint and 13" on the Castle to give piston strokes of 30" and 26" respectively.

This is very noticeable giving the Saint a big loping gait wereas the Castle and Star are positively effeminate.  The Saint Running plate is probably a couple of inches higher than the production Stars to clear the big end though I have not read confirmation of this.

Did Swindon cast their own wheels?  I have read that only Crewe works had a steel foundry and that Darlington bought in wheel castings so did Swindon do likewise?

[Horsetan]

From the pictures of the actual 4mm wheels - the illustrations seem to show wheels which were manufactured after the GWR changed the design of the Star / Saint wheels at some point in the period 1905-1910.  When the Stars were built initially the wheel boss appeared to be circular in nature compared to the later version...  after a few years and probably after the introduction of the Saints the wheel boss was enlarged and became more "pear-drop" in shape.

 

I have not seen any definitive explanation for this alteration in the design of the Saint and Star wheels...  I can offer a suggestion.  That the change was introduced, apparently, after the GWR commenced building of the Saints may be an indication that there was some aspect of the operation of the early Saints which was not acceptable.  I suggest that the early Saints suffered from the wheels shifting on the axles as a result of greater forces than experienced with the Stars.  To counteract the rotation of a wheel on an axle the boss was increased in size, maybe also in length, in order that the axle could be pressed home with a greater force (or the bigger boss gripped the axle more than before) and the assembly provided with a key driven into a slot cut along the bore of the boss / along the wheel seat on the axle......

OT, but something similar was done for the 5'8" and 6'0" diameter drivers as well.

 

The 5'8"s started off with a very small hub, later increased in diameter. Both types had the crankpin in line with the spoke. The third type of 5'8" had the crankpin between the spokes, plus reinforcement webbing adjacent to the crankpin.

 

The 6' wheels (Hall) started with no webbing. Webbing was added after about 1930.

 

Bear in mind that driving wheelsets did get swapped around, and some engines ran on a mixture! Even today, you can see 4003 with webbed trailing drivers, and 5043 with non-webbed centre drivers. See also the preserved Manors, which carry all three types of 5'8" wheel.