What indication does a driver get that train has divided?

[devondynosoar118]

its also been known for thieves to uncouple the rear wagons of an intermodal in a loop "somewhere in scotland" and promptly nick the intoxicating content from the curtain sided wagons gaining access with stanley knives

 

Would that be the use of a "Bucky" uncoupler? Edited June 12, 2017 by devondynosoar118

[Metr0Land]

Some fascinating recollections here, thanks to all who have contributed. If I may add some random memories from my time in Control;

 

 

Back to the original topic, train divisions are rare nowadays but do still occur, usually with freights (although didn't an HST divide within the set near Bristol recently ?).

 

Indeed it did:

 

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=17608.15

[Edwin_m]

There was also a 158 that divided on the curves at the end of the King Edward Bridge in Newcastle a few weeks ago.  Particularly alarming as this is a gangwayed connection, though it was running empty at the time. 

[The Johnster]

Again, drifting OT a bit but on the subject of blocked brake pipes, in the mid 70s there were a series of MGR specials run from Newport, Cardiff, Barry, and IIRC Avonmouth Docks to Didcot with imported Polish coal which that power station was able to use.  I was picking one of these trains up from Barry docks, which had been left on the long 180 degree curve around the back of no.2 dock.  The coal was being unloaded from the ship by grabber buckets on the cranes, and the area was a terrible mess with spilled coal, the dusty Polish type, everywhere.  While the Cadoxton shunter coupled the 47 on, I went back to attach the tail lamp and perform the brake test, which was done by opening the cock on the brake pipe, painted in red to distinguish it from the reservoir pipe in yellow.  This would normally be followed by the roar of escaping air, which would subside as the air exhausted from the pipe and the brakes applied; you then confirmed by kicking the pads that they were applied on the last 2 wagons.  On this occasion, I opened the cock and nothing happened.  What follows is pure cartoon comedy, as I took the hose off it's bracket and looked with a puzzled expression into the end of it.  It was blocked with damp coal dust that had set like concrete.  I then did a very silly thing.  I hit the buffer beam as hard as I could with the hose.

 

There was a loud bang, and I was vaguely aware of something passing my right ear at a very high velocity, and of two noises, one being a sound like a jet aircraft diminishing as the solid coal plug headed off in the direction of Saturn, and the other being the roar of air at 90psi venting from the hose, which was doing a very convincing impression of an annoyed snake trying to attack me.  As far as I am aware the coal plug is still going, and a very shaken Johnster put the hose back on it's bracket, completed the brake test, and closed the cock.  When I got back to the loco and told them what had happened, nobody believed me.  

 

I don't want to think about the result had the plug hit me in the face...

[phil-b259]

There was also a 158 that divided on the curves at the end of the King Edward Bridge in Newcastle a few weeks ago.  Particularly alarming as this is a gangwayed connection, though it was running empty at the time. 

 

Same thing happened to a 455 EMU on its way into Victoria - but fortunately as with the 158, the EMU was an ECS movement from the depot and not carrying passengers. Cause was the equivalent to the drawhook being pulled out of the bufferbeam.

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/moving-train-breaks-in-half-sparking-evening-of-rush-hour-misery-for-commuters-a3085581.html

[PM47079]

Anything like that with a situation when you have a brake pipe leak that is sudden, I tell my trainees to put the loco in brake test mode to trap the air in the train if the main reservoir gauge on the loco starts rising you can confirm that the loco can hold its own air and it is the train that cannot therefore it could be divided. Then you can let the signaller know you will need to examine the train as it may be divided. Then secure the loco and taking the train list with you you can make your way down the train and check the wagon numbers correspond to the list, and if you find it has divided you instantly know how many wagons are not accounted for

[Classsix T]

Again, drifting OT a bit but on the subject of blocked brake pipes, in the mid 70s there were a series of MGR specials run from Newport, Cardiff, Barry, and IIRC Avonmouth Docks to Didcot with imported Polish coal which that power station was able to use. I was picking one of these trains up from Barry docks, which had been left on the long 180 degree curve around the back of no.2 dock. The coal was being unloaded from the ship by grabber buckets on the cranes, and the area was a terrible mess with spilled coal, the dusty Polish type, everywhere. While the Cadoxton shunter coupled the 47 on, I went back to attach the tail lamp and perform the brake test, which was done by opening the cock on the brake pipe, painted in red to distinguish it from the reservoir pipe in yellow. This would normally be followed by the roar of escaping air, which would subside as the air exhausted from the pipe and the brakes applied; you then confirmed by kicking the pads that they were applied on the last 2 wagons. On this occasion, I opened the cock and nothing happened. What follows is pure cartoon comedy, as I took the hose off it's bracket and looked with a puzzled expression into the end of it. It was blocked with damp coal dust that had set like concrete. I then did a very silly thing. I hit the buffer beam as hard as I could with the hose.

 

There was a loud bang, and I was vaguely aware of something passing my right ear at a very high velocity, and of two noises, one being a sound like a jet aircraft diminishing as the solid coal plug headed off in the direction of Saturn, and the other being the roar of air at 90psi venting from the hose, which was doing a very convincing impression of an annoyed snake trying to attack me. As far as I am aware the coal plug is still going, and a very shaken Johnster put the hose back on it's bracket, completed the brake test, and closed the cock. When I got back to the loco and told them what had happened, nobody believed me.

 

I don't want to think about the result had the plug hit me in the face...

One of those work related near misses that probably doesn't mean much right then but scares the bejeezus out of you later Johnster, I've done stupidity (in print) and the fact I've still got eight fingers and two thumbs gives me cold sweats on what might have been.

 

I was trainee pipe monkey at one of the Preserved Railways and was fortunate to be taught by a "big railway" shunter who knew his stuff. Always hold the end of the pipe as you open the cock (when tying on so the loco can't move with you between it and the stock) lest the f**ker take your front teeth out.

 

C6T.

[18B]

There are indeed instances of trains running considerable distances with vehicles derailed, as not much gives the game away in the cab as long as the derailed vehicles are upright and in line, which they will tend to be as long as the loco is under power.  indeed, it is not impossible for them to re-rail themselves leaving marks on the sleepers as the only evidence.  If the train continues to run with derailed vehicles until it reaches facing pointwork, or fouls on a platform or similar obstruction, matters usually become much worse very quickly.  On a locomotive on which power is applied, the 'feel' of the train is quite limited beyond a general drag on the loco, and only if this is dramatically and suddenly increased will the driver be alerted to a problem.  Drivers, at least in my time on the railway, were instructed to look back to check their trains at suitable locations when an opportunity presented itself, but you can understand why they are reluctant to open the window and stick their heads out in cold or wet weather, and few were as diligent as they should be in this matter.

 

Am I right in  thinking that the Class 66's that were first locos fitted with wing mirrors in an attempt to overcome this problem, (Stable door - Horse bolted though...... given the demise of unfitted freights which constituted the bulk of the train divided problem)

[The Bigbee Line]

Hoads Wood 1982. Iron Ore Tipplers loaded with Minestone from Betteshanger Colliery. En-route to Norwood Junction. I was in the back cab of the leading class 73. There was a slight tug, nothing heavy, then looking out of the cab window I could see wagons tumbling, throwing up ballast like the bow wave of ship. The vacuum had dropped to zero, it seemed like an age before the front portion came to a stand. In this case the train was in 3 portions...

 

[Swindon 123]

Am I right in  thinking that the Class 66's that were first locos fitted with wing mirrors in an attempt to overcome this problem, (Stable door - Horse bolted though...... given the demise of unfitted freights which constituted the bulk of the train divided problem)

The only problem with them was they were positioned in such a position that the handrails leading up to the cab doors blocked any meaningful view back to the train. Also even with mirrors it is impossible to see the back of the loco, let alone the train when the lineside vegetation is brushing up against the side of the loco.

 

Paul J.

[Ken.W]

Trains becoming accidentally divided by something closing the brake cock cannot happen (in theory) as the brake cock handles are fitted with a catch that has to be moved in conjunction with the brake cock handle, similar to what happens when a signaler wants to move a signal lever. This stops the accidental closure of the brake handle. This modification was introduced as a result of the Darlington Deltic incident.

Yes, the brake pipe cocks have latch catches introduced as a result of the Darlington incident described previously to prevent accidental  turning of the handles. If hit hard enough the right way though they can still be overcome...

A few year ago, approaching Doncaster at about 110 when, in the Bentley area, a pheasant rose up out the 4ft and hit the front end. I promptly lost brake pipe pressure and came grinding to a stand at the signal protecting Arksey LC. On examining the front end, the brake pipe cock handle had been forced backwards over the catch stop, opening the cock, and with the handle wedged firmly against the buffer beam of the DVT so it couldn't be moved.

I go on the SPT, it starts something like this;

Hello, 1Exx at Dxx

Yes driver, what seems to be the problem?

I've hit a pheasant

You've hit a pheasant?? (tone of I cant believe I'm hearing this!)

things then get a bit more serious as I describe the result.

The fitter had to be called out from Doncaster station and was dispatched on the first Down train.

I believe this is the incident referred to in the title sequence of the original 'The Railway' series at Kings X where the lady on the information desk looks at her screen and exclaims 'train running (xx) minutes late due to hitting a pheasant, I've heard everything now!'

By time the fitter arrived, I'd managed to free the handle, using the sledgehammer from the emergency cupboard.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Ken.W

[Swindon 123]

Yes, the brake pipe cocks have latch catches introduced as a result of the Darlington incident described previously to prevent accidental  turning of the handles. If hit hard enough the right way though they can still be overcome...

A few year ago, approaching Doncaster at about 110 when, in the Bentley area, a pheasant rose up out the 4ft and hit the front end. I promptly lost brake pipe pressure and came grinding to a stand at the signal protecting Arksey LC. On examining the front end, the brake pipe cock handle had been forced backwards over the catch stop, opening the cock, and with the handle wedged firmly against the buffer beam of the DVT so it couldn't be moved.

I go on the SPT, it starts something like this;

Hello, 1Exx at Dxx

Yes driver, what seems to be the problem?

I've hit a pheasant

You've hit a pheasant?? (tone of I cant believe I'm hearing this!)

things then get a bit more serious as I describe the result.

The fitter had to be called out from Doncaster station and was dispatched on the first Down train.

I believe this is the incident referred to in the title sequence of the original 'The Railway' series at Kings X where the lady on the information desk looks at her screen and exclaims 'train running (xx) minutes late due to hitting a pheasant, I've heard everything now!'

By time the fitter arrived, I'd managed to free the handle, using the sledgehammer from the emergency cupboard.

I had a similar crippling incident just south of Little Mill, (again) on the Up line, involving a heard of bullocks, (not of Abbotswood Jcn fame), with a class 66. Instant loss of brake pipe pressure and also the main res started to go down, as expected. On coming to a stand I went to look at the buffer beam expecting to find the brake pipe hose adrift and the brake pipe cock closed/damaged, similar to your incident. I found the brake pipe more than damaged, it was none existent, as was the main res pipe. Both has been sheared off by the impact flush with the buffer beam, and the thick steel buffer beam extension plate had been bent back, and was almost touching the front of the bogie. I was going nowhere, and to make matters worse, in a phone signal blind spot. I had been able to make an emergency radio broadcast on hitting the bullocks, so had been able to stop any trains in the opposite direction, but I was out of contact with EWS Doncaster and any nearby fitting staff at Newport. Fortunately the nearest fitter at Newport had been doing an exam on a 66 at East Usk and had heard my emergency broadcast, so was aware of my predicament. I still had to walk back to Little Mill signal box and make it clear to all concerned that the train was going nowhere until fitting staff could repair the pipes. The fitter turned up, with a couple of spare brake/main res hoses expecting to fit them quite easily. He was quite shocked to find that there was no way he could fit anything to replace the broken pipes, the break being flush with the buffer beam, so there was nothing to work with. He did consider trying to weld some pipework onto the broken pipes, or at best weld them up, but he didn't have the correct welding equipment with him. We managed to plug the brake pipe with a suitably modified stick, but when it came to the main res pipe we found it impossible because the pipe was not fixed behind and to the buffer beam, as the brake pipe had been, so sprung back when trying to hammer a stick in to plug it. With the buffer beam extension plate being bent back, we couldn't get behind it to try and wedge to pipe when hitting it. In the end the fitter managed to flatten the end of the pipe in the hole with a hammer and chisel, not an easy thing to do either, sufficiently for the loco to maintain air pressure enough, for me to limp to Hereford, with the compressors going flat out all the time. This little incident blocked the main line for four hours, and the evening passenger service between Newport and Hereford that day was all but abandoned. All from hitting a few, admittedly large, bullocks. 

 

Paul J.

[Gwiwer]

Yes, the brake pipe cocks have latch catches introduced as a result of the Darlington incident described previously to prevent accidental  turning of the handles. If hit hard enough the right way though they can still be overcome...

A few year ago, approaching Doncaster at about 110 when, in the Bentley area, a pheasant rose up out the 4ft and hit the front end. I promptly lost brake pipe pressure and came grinding to a stand at the signal protecting Arksey LC. On examining the front end, the brake pipe cock handle had been forced backwards over the catch stop, opening the cock, and with the handle wedged firmly against the buffer beam of the DVT so it couldn't be moved.

I go on the SPT, it starts something like this;

Hello, 1Exx at Dxx

Yes driver, what seems to be the problem?

I've hit a pheasant

Cock pheasant?

[Edwin_m]

I had a similar crippling incident just south of Little Mill, (again) on the Up line, involving a heard of bullocks, (not of Abbotswood Jcn fame), with a class 66. Instant loss of brake pipe pressure and also the main res started to go down, as expected. On coming to a stand I went to look at the buffer beam expecting to find the brake pipe hose adrift and the brake pipe cock closed/damaged, similar to your incident. I found the brake pipe more than damaged, it was none existent, as was the main res pipe. Both has been sheared off by the impact flush with the buffer beam, and the thick steel buffer beam extension plate had been bent back, and was almost touching the front of the bogie. I was going nowhere, and to make matters worse, in a phone signal blind spot. I had been able to make an emergency radio broadcast on hitting the bullocks, so had been able to stop any trains in the opposite direction, but I was out of contact with EWS Doncaster and any nearby fitting staff at Newport. Fortunately the nearest fitter at Newport had been doing an exam on a 66 at East Usk and had heard my emergency broadcast, so was aware of my predicament. I still had to walk back to Little Mill signal box and make it clear to all concerned that the train was going nowhere until fitting staff could repair the pipes. The fitter turned up, with a couple of spare brake/main res hoses expecting to fit them quite easily. He was quite shocked to find that there was no way he could fit anything to replace the broken pipes, the break being flush with the buffer beam, so there was nothing to work with. He did consider trying to weld some pipework onto the broken pipes, or at best weld them up, but he didn't have the correct welding equipment with him. We managed to plug the brake pipe with a suitably modified stick, but when it came to the main res pipe we found it impossible because the pipe was not fixed behind and to the buffer beam, as the brake pipe had been, so sprung back when trying to hammer a stick in to plug it. With the buffer beam extension plate being bent back, we couldn't get behind it to try and wedge to pipe when hitting it. In the end the fitter managed to flatten the end of the pipe in the hole with a hammer and chisel, not an easy thing to do either, sufficiently for the loco to maintain air pressure enough, for me to limp to Hereford, with the compressors going flat out all the time. This little incident blocked the main line for four hours, and the evening passenger service between Newport and Hereford that day was all but abandoned. All from hitting a few, admittedly large, bullocks. 

 

Paul J.

There was something on one of those Ch5/Quest/whatever programmes about hitting moose or other large animals in Canada (edit: or it may have been kangaroos in Australia) and similarly losing the brake pipes.  I don't know why they don't put another isolating cock to shut off the pipe somewhere within the loco. 

Edited June 13, 2017 by Edwin_m

[The Stationmaster]

Getting OT a little, an aluminium ingot worth several hunderd thousand pounds went missing in my time from a Freightliner train waiting for the calling on signal to enter Swansea Danygraig Termianl; the wagon it was on was out of sight around the bend in the burrows and the thieves simply unloaded it with a mobile crane and put onto a flatbed, and drove away.  There was also a rumour of a container full of 50p coins from Llantrisant Royal Mint going awol from a Cardiff-Statford train, somewhere in East London.  This was alleged to have contained £2 million, in the early 70s; quite a haul, and never released to the press!  I repeat the words 'rumour' and 'alleged'!

 

Would be unusual for the 50p pieces to be on a Freightliner in that manner as there would be nothing to indicate  what the container contained on any readily available documentation.

 

Most, if not all, of the 50p coins sent to London were packed in what would otherwise be regarded as oil drums and loaded to passenger and parcels trains to Paddington.

 

Incidentally the oddest one I ever saw was rather more than a simple division as the rear of the train derailed very spectacularly includinga  couple of wagons on their sides and one completely upside down.  I got there fairly quickly after the event and the Driver was particularly keen that I should have a look at the vacuum gauges on the loco - there was still 20 inches of vacuum in the train pipe.  What actually stopped the train wasn't the brakes but a derailed wagon 'catching' on pointwork which collapsed disintegrated under the train.  The inverted wagon was an HTV loaded with chippings and there was virtually no trace of its load - it had vanished into the mire underneath the track.

[devondynosoar118]

Hoads Wood 1982. Iron Ore Tipplers loaded with Minestone from Betteshanger Colliery. En-route to Norwood Junction. I was in the back cab of the leading class 73. There was a slight tug, nothing heavy, then looking out of the cab window I could see wagons tumbling, throwing up ballast like the bow wave of ship. The vacuum had dropped to zero, it seemed like an age before the front portion came to a stand. In this case the train was in 3 portions...gallery_2484_2896_322094 hoads wood.jpg

New trousers please. That looked like an almighty mess! How did they derail? Surely the brake stops the load, keeping it on the track , or did the first portion get hit by the second?

Edited June 13, 2017 by devondynosoar118

[The Bigbee Line]

New trousers please. That looked like an almighty mess! How did they derail? Surely the brake stops the load, keeping it on the track , or did the first portion get hit by the second?

The train stopped in 3 portions http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/album/2896-hoads-wood/ the first portion was all on the rails and only divided because the derailed wagons acted like a giant anchor and a screw coupling broke. The second portion has derailed wagons at the rear and the third portion was all derailed. Gaps between each portion. The weight of the train kept it moving despite the brakes applying. Newtons laws apply