GWR shunting engines and NEM pockets

[dolydd]

Help please.I need a decent modern slow running Grewt Western shunter and having gone over to kadee couplings I need one with NEM pockets at the right height. Would recent Bachmann pannier or Hornby small prairie fit the bill? Since I am mdelling the Dee Valley the recnt 1361 cass would be no good and I suspect that the local 14Xx tanks were only used for push pull duties. All info gratefully welcomed.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I'm not knowledgeable about Kadees but regarding the loco types I assume you are thinking of those that would have been allocated to Oswestry shed. During the mid-1950s they did have some 58xx tanks which may have seen non-passenger use. They also had a few of the 5700/8750 type panniers. Other main types were the 16xx panniers, not available RTR, and 74xx panniers, similar to the Bachmann 64xx but with detail differences.

[DCB]

The Hornby 14XX and Prairie are pretty awful runners and our 14XX are out of use since the Hattons 14XX appeared while the Prairies look OK until they move and I am using a Triang chassis under one as I try to make one run half decently.

 

The latest Bachmann 57XX is a good runner, their 45XX prairie runs nicely but has a very short coupled wheelbase which can cause pickup issues on non bonded points

 

The Hattons 14XX is excellent for slow running and shunting as long as your track is flat and level and the loads not excessive, a dozen Bachmann wagons is well within its capabilities.   The GWR built a batch of twenty 48XX (later 14XX) with Auto gear and twenty without the 58XX class before standardising on the Auto Fitted variety as they were more versatile.  It was not a particularly difficult job to uncouple the Auto train gear and on some lines the 14XX would uncouple the auto coach  and haul the branch pick up goods between passenger trains, Faringdon was one.   Equally 14XX worked goods on the Presteign(?) branch.

58XX were used for shunting around Swindon but combined this with workman's train duties.

The 64XX were generally kept to passenger workings but the visually similar but somewhat stronger 74XX were branch line engines though many were BR built.

The 16XX were BR built but the real gap in the market is the 2021 and 850 classes of small panniers which were used extensively as branch goods and shunting engines.

 

I would go for a Hattons 14xx/48XX/58XX,  as the 57XX were not branch line engines until they were reclassified Yellow from Blue in BR days

Edited July 12, 2017 by DavidCBroad

[The Johnster]

Think Oswestry had some 74xx, basically a 64xx without the auto gear but not the Bachmann one which is the earlier batch of 64xx with the rounded join between the bunker side sheet and the cab rear.  The loco is fairly easily converted by filing off the cover on the buffer beams for the auto gear and squaring off the bunker side sheet/cab rear join, and of course providing new number plates.  Hornby do not make a Small Prairie, but have a Large Prairie which is generically the old Airfix/Mainline one with a new chassis.  AFAIK Oswestry did not have any of these allocated.  Bachmann make a Small Prairie which I am also unsure of with regard to Oswestry, and both these locos feature couplers attached to the pony and radial trucks, actually both ponies on the models, so may be less suitable for Kaydee couplers.  Incidentally my nearly 40 year old Airfix Large Prairie runs near perfectly, if a little noisily, the big improvement being when I binned the traction tyre.

 

Bachmann 57xx, 8750, and 64xx are all excellent and quiet runners straight out of the box and will improve with running in, and they are ideal for slow, smooth, perfectly controlled shunting assuming your track is level and smoothly laid.  I have no trouble with any of my locos on 2' radius insulfrog points or number 4 setrack curves in the fiddle yard.  I also have a Hornby 2721 with a recent chassis which ran like a 3 legged dog with legs of different lengths and pointing different ways when I first had it, but a thorough strip down and cleaning session coupled with, again, binning the traction tyres, has it running quite smoothly and while I prefer the Bachmanns for shunting, it passes muster, not far off the Baccy performance and quietness, though it has to be kept scrupulously and spotlessly clean!  All of these locos will be fine for your purposes, though the 2721 would have to be fitted with NEM pockets; the Baccys already have them, but I have no idea which number you require; your dealer should be able to advise on this.  I use tension locks for my sins (and for coupling...).

 

I cannot speak for the Hattons 58xx, but it is reported to be a good runner and should be suitable for you; I would advise you to avoid the Hornby 14/48xx, generically the old Airfix model from the late 70s.  It also suffers from traction tyres, cannot pull much when they are removed, and is a notorious bad runner.  Like my Large Prairie, you might be lucky, but if you are going down that route it is probably better to shell out for the Hatton's version, which is available as a 58xx.  It also has NEM pockets

[Quarryscapes]

The Dee Valley was not operated from Oswestry as it was not Cambrian. It was the preserve of Croes Newydd locos. 16xx, 8750s and 57xx and 74xx Panniers. There were also a couple of 58xx 0-4-2ts and a solitary 64xx in the 50s.

[dolydd]

Help please.I need a decent modern slow running Grewt Western shunter and having gone over to kadee couplings I need one with NEM pockets at the right height. Would recent Bachmann pannier or Hornby small prairie fit the bill? Since I am mdelling the Dee Valley the recnt 1361 cass would be no good and I suspect that the local 14Xx tanks were only used for push pull duties. All info gratefully welcomed.

Many thanks guys. Most helpful. Raiding the piggybank now!!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Of the choice available, I'd suggest you spring for the Bach 57XX, as it is an early enough introduction to have a sprung centre axle, which is such a help with pick up reliabilty. Bachman bless their hearts having provided such a useful feature then constrain the movement unduly, but filing a half millimetre deep recess into the keeper plate sides under the axle fixes that, and your loco will then always have at least two wheels making good rail contact either side at all times. I have used more of these mechs (and the essentially same components on the Derby wheelbase for the Bach Jinty) than I can quickly reckon, mostly to replace old mechs under whitemetal kit bodies, and they are sterling performers on DC, and with a decoder like a Lenz standard very refined performance is available.

[The Johnster]

I agree, the obvious choice is the Baccy 57xx; thanks for the mod to the keeper plate tip, 34!  7714, 8727, and 8734 are suitable candidates in BR days (Rail UK website); if you want to model pre-nationalisation you are a little stuffed, though, as there were no 57xx at Croes Newydd, which relied farly heavily on older locos, only a few 36xx and very recently built 96xx series 8750s.  You'd have a better choice of 74xx according to Rail Uk, a fairly easy conversion from Baccy 64xx if you don't mind doing a bit of filing, or there's a couple of 58xx, renumbered Hatton's ideal for it.   All these models come with NEM pockets and are known good runners.

 

If you are going to be modelling an earlier period than the 30s, when 58xx and 74xx appeared, you are looking at 17xx, 21xx, and pre-2721 series half cab panniers, and in the realm of kits.  Don't bother modifying the Hornby 2721; it's not the best runner in the world (mine is restricted to passenger work or banking), doesn't have NEM pockets, and not what i'd recommend for shunting.

[dolydd]

I agree, the obvious choice is the Baccy 57xx; thanks for the mod to the keeper plate tip, 34!  7714, 8727, and 8734 are suitable candidates in BR days (Rail UK website); if you want to model pre-nationalisation you are a little stuffed, though, as there were no 57xx at Croes Newydd, which relied farly heavily on older locos, only a few 36xx and very recently built 96xx series 8750s.  You'd have a better choice of 74xx according to Rail Uk, a fairly easy conversion from Baccy 64xx if you don't mind doing a bit of filing, or there's a couple of 58xx, renumbered Hatton's ideal for it.   All these models come with NEM pockets and are known good runners.

 

If you are going to be modelling an earlier period than the 30s, when 58xx and 74xx appeared, you are looking at 17xx, 21xx, and pre-2721 series half cab panniers, and in the realm of kits.  Don't bother modifying the Hornby 2721; it's not the best runner in the world (mine is restricted to passenger work or banking), doesn't have NEM pockets, and not what i'd recommend for shunting.

Thanks for this definitive answer, 34 and Johnster. Baccy 57XX it will be. I'm modelling Dee Valley around Corwen, specifically 1938-9, but since Corwen was such a horribly elongated site, I have predicated another GWR/LMS junction nearby, on the lines of the LNWR Betws-y-Coed - Corwen proposal never taken forward, and created it a bit wider and stumpier than even a compressed Corwen would have been.

[Dunsignalling]

Getting NEM-fit Kadees mounted at the correct height can be a bit of a faff, as most of the manufacturers (and especially Bachmann) tend to mount the pockets rather low.

 

The simple fix is to remove the pocket and glue a Kadee #20 where it came out of. This is especially easy on the Heljan 1366 as the part you need to fix it to comes off by undoing one screw.

 

In other cases, Hornby Peckett, for one, the coupler may block access to body fixing screws, so don't use Araldite!

 

Superglue tends to be OK in my experience as, with a bit of flexing, you can make the bond fail if access becomes necessary. Just don't flood it on or you will also lock the body fixing screw in place for good.

 

Another trick (and more like a "proper engineering" way to do it) is to work out where the screw is, make a hole in the coupler to line up with it, and replace the screw with a longer one (always supposing something suitable can be obtained) that will attach both the coupler and the body. I did this on the Hornby Sentinel diesel, using (IIRC) an M2 screw which was similar enough to the original thread to re-tap the Hornby plastic without weakening the attachment. 

 

John

Edited July 18, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

That's the part of the original question I failed to answer: the Bach 57XX has fiddle free NEM pockets: pull out tension lock, insert Kadee #19 for 24" minimum radius, #20 for set track radii. Bob on gauge height on all the ones I have tinkered with.

[orford]

Bear in mind that with Kadee couplers, whilst NEM pockets are certainly useful they are by no means essential. I have been using Kadees exclusively for well over 30 years and with the vast range of different types, configurations and mountings available from Kadee (as opposed to the 'few' types typically stocked by UK model shops), almost any British model loco can be fitted with Kadees regardless of whether it has NEM pockets or not, although the degree of difficulty of fitting does vary from 'ridiculously easy' to 'absolutely dastardly'.

 

In fact I generally prefer to use non-NEM types on locos wherever possible as the NEM type Kadees operate slightly differently to the non-NEM type and are also slightly more bulky in terms of visual appearance. They don't 'swing' in quite the same way as the original non-NEM types and in some situations this can have a detrimental effect on delayed uncoupling in particular. 

 

For sure, go with NEM pockets if the loco has them but I just mention this as it is not necessarily a prerequisite when chosing your loco. Good slow running is a far more important consideration.