Electrification - Back to Square One

[Joseph_Pestell]

Clever politicians are quite common, well advised ones of sound judgement, committed to their supposed roles and duties, rather less so.

 

This isn't new. The late, great A P Herbert brought us this snippet from Mr Justice Cocklecarrot;

"Mr Haddock, I have listened to your submission to this bench for some time now, and I am none the wiser"

"As your Lordship says; however, you ARE now, somewhat better informed"

I do wish the BBC would repeat (or if necessary remake) Misleading Cases. A P Herbert was so brilliant a user of the English language.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Several years ago up here in Wigan we were given a vote whether or not to accept congestion charging in the Greater Manchester area (of which Wigan is a part). The overwhelming vote was NO throughout Greater Manchester, and I suspect in any future votes (if ever given) the same result will occur.

 

Wigan does not have serious congestion issues, Manchester City (and a few adjoining areas) does. Why should I pay for those, unless visiting there ?

 

Brit15

Referenda always depend for success on asking the right question of the right people. But let's not mention Brexit again.

[Edwin_m]

Several years ago up here in Wigan we were given a vote whether or not to accept congestion charging in the Greater Manchester area (of which Wigan is a part). The overwhelming vote was NO throughout Greater Manchester, and I suspect in any future votes (if ever given) the same result will occur.

 

Wigan does not have serious congestion issues, Manchester City (and a few adjoining areas) does. Why should I pay for those, unless visiting there ?

 

Brit15

 

From what I remember the congestion charging zone wouldn't have included Wigan, so you wouldn't​ have paid unless driving to inner Manchester.  Many of the benefits on offer with the referendum were eventually achieved without imposing the charge.  

 

Fairly typical of the sort of misinformation that gets put around in elections and particularly in referendums.  Rather than just asking for a vote on something which is either really attractive or really terrible, there needs to be a full list of the upsides and downsides of each choice, and perhaps even more difficult people need to be persuaded to take account of it rather than just vote on gut reaction. 

[Satan's Goldfish]

Really? National Grid quotes nationwide transmission loss at about 1.8%. Most of this will be in the low voltage transmission within cities, not in high voltage lines which could include the railway 25kV system. I have been trying to find out at what voltage electricity is sent from wind arrays as I never see high voltage lines from them and suspect that they are busy warming the earth through buried cables.

From experience, standalone 2MW turbine transmits power to grid at 33Kv. I don't know about the larger turbine fields at sea but I suspect a 'super grid' voltage from the combined system given the scale of the new incomer substation built in Norfolk.

 

One thing I've only seen mentioned once in this thread is the use of hydrogen. A few years ago (possibly on top gear) I saw an item the use of hydrogen fuel cells and that California had added hydrogen pumps to their fuel stations. From what i can remember it's not as simple as just replacing your unleaded with hydrogen (same as running older leaded petrol engines on unleaded didn't work) but modifications were possible and there were options for using the hydrogen to power an otherwise electric car. Much faster charging while on the way somewhere! As already pointed out, if looking at it from a purely environmental standpoint, would it mater that creating hydrogen from sea water using wind power isn't efficient? Would that boost a technological race to make all of those systems more efficient and cost effective?

[rockershovel]

The cleverness, or otherwise, of politicians is endlessly debated. David Cameron was widely criticised as lacking intelligence, which I never understood. He did, after all, have a 1:1 from Oxbridge, and more education that any three people might make reasonable use of, gained at enormous cost.

 

Somehow along the way, however, he appeared to have acquired foreign language skills somewhat less than a Tunisian taxi-driver. He had no actual professional qualification, profession or vocation. He certainly never "led" the Consrvstive Party in any meaningful sense.

 

The only conclusion I can come to, is that intelligence is of little value unless it is applied.

[jjb1970]

A healthy degree of scepticism is good when considering politicians but an excess of cynicism is just as unhealthy as having unquestioning faith in them.

Most politicians, from all parts of the political spectrum, are well informed and intelligent individuals who are motivated by wanting to improve things. Nobody could possibly be an expert on even a tenth of the matters brought before parliament hence they rely on advisers and the civil service for in-depth analysis and technical expertise.

And as has been pointed out, politicians are very attuned to what voters want so it is too easy to blame them for short termism and an unwillingness to take difficult decisions.

I'm a small government libertarian and think that we need a lot less government yet I seem to hold politicians and even most civil servants in higher regard than people who want the government to solve all problems and save the world.

[Fat Controller]

From experience, standalone 2MW turbine transmits power to grid at 33Kv. I don't know about the larger turbine fields at sea but I suspect a 'super grid' voltage from the combined system given the scale of the new incomer substation built in Norfolk.

 

One thing I've only seen mentioned once in this thread is the use of hydrogen. A few years ago (possibly on top gear) I saw an item the use of hydrogen fuel cells and that California had added hydrogen pumps to their fuel stations. From what i can remember it's not as simple as just replacing your unleaded with hydrogen (same as running older leaded petrol engines on unleaded didn't work) but modifications were possible and there were options for using the hydrogen to power an otherwise electric car. Much faster charging while on the way somewhere! As already pointed out, if looking at it from a purely environmental standpoint, would it mater that creating hydrogen from sea water using wind power isn't efficient? Would that boost a technological race to make all of those systems more efficient and cost effective?

As I understand it, fuel cells generate electricity when the hydrogen is combined with oxygen, so you would need to replace your internal combustion engine with an electric motor. I don't know if you could use the hydrogen in the same manner as you currently use Liquified Petroluem Gas in a modified IC engine. The idea of using 'spare' electricity from wind farms, tidal sources and so on has merit, though I wonder where it might be done, and how the hydrogen might be distributed.

[jjb1970]

Hydrogen can be combusted in an IC engine but doing so introduces new emissions isues.

If you're going to develop hydrogen as a transport fuel then fuel cells (which are not new) are a lot simpler and cleaner.

The hydrogen carrier does not have to be hydrogen. There are multiple projects looking at using wind turbines and other forms of renewable energy to produce hydrogen.

[davefreight]

The government proposal does not outlaw IC engines, range extender arrangements such as PHEVs will still be allowed. A 300 mile+ range is already practical from pure batteries and it is going up. The recharge times are coming down. Energy is increasingly moving away from large centralised generation towards distributed power and more localised distribution. I think that very soon most of us will become "prosumers". I really don't see the high profile recently announced target as being particularly ambitious and see no real technical arguments against it.

 

While there may be no technical arguments against it the ambition to switch entirely from oil to electric vehicles is probably a complete nonsense.  It would appear to fall down when one considers the impracticality of charging electric vehicles, both in terms of the time taken to do so and the availability of charging points.

Recharging times may come down but not until they are reduced to the equivalent of a petrol/diesel stop can I envisage the electric car being a practical proposition for the many.

[Dagworth]

Hydrogen can be combusted in an IC engine but doing so introduces new emissions isues.

If you're going to develop hydrogen as a transport fuel then fuel cells (which are not new) are a lot simpler and cleaner.

The hydrogen carrier does not have to be hydrogen. There are multiple projects looking at using wind turbines and other forms of renewable energy to produce hydrogen.

Doesn't hydrogen in an IC engine just produce water?

 

Andi

[Fat Controller]

Doesn't hydrogen in an IC engine just produce water?

 

Andi

Only if the oxygen supplied is pure oxygen; if you just use normal air, then you'll get nitrous oxides of various types as well. These might combine with the water to produce nitric acid.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Doesn't hydrogen in an IC engine just produce water?

 

Andi

Some info from the always reliable Wikipedia......

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_internal_combustion_engine_vehicle

 

So if I get it right, to run hydrogen you need a heavily modified (strengthened) engine, to create as much power as a similar sized petrol engine then NOx emissions will be similar, to remove all NOx emmisions then power is halved. So not impossible, but comes down to cost.

[jjb1970]

Depending on combustion charateristics within the engine you can also get significant hydrogen peroxide formation which is rather undesirable.

[Satan's Goldfish]

I wonder if there's a whole science of aditives to look into to remove some of the power/emmisions issues.....

 

.....or fuel cells!

[jjb1970]

 

While there may be no technical arguments against it the ambition to switch entirely from oil to electric vehicles is probably a complete nonsense. It would appear to fall down when one considers the impracticality of charging electric vehicles, both in terms of the time taken to do so and the availability of charging points.

Recharging times may come down but not until they are reduced to the equivalent of a petrol/diesel stop can I envisage the electric car being a practical proposition for the many.

That assumes batteries don't continue to improve and that infrastructure doesn't develop. And batteries are not the only EV technology, you can use fuel cells.

I think it is worth remembering just how quickly coal was replaced by oil. In an earlier era a global network of coaling stations was established quickly. In my lifetime we abandoned town gas for natural gas and have seen a digital transformation. What politicians are doing is latching onto a consumer and market driven transformation which is happening anyway and put in a deadline which is probably well behind what would be achieved anyway.

And to re-iterate, ic engines are not being banned. PHEVs and range extenders will still be allowable.

[jjb1970]

As an example of a technological dicontinuity, the head of Alco assured a conference on rail technology that steam would continue to exist alongside diesel for the foreseeable future and that neither technology would be dominant. That was four years before Alco built their last steam locomotive.

[rockershovel]

As an example of a technological dicontinuity, the head of Alco assured a conference on rail technology that steam would continue to exist alongside diesel for the foreseeable future and that neither technology would be dominant. That was four years before Alco built their last steam locomotive.

I seem remember that IBM reckoned that seven computers would service foreseeable world demand..... Daryl F Zanuck of MGM predicted that tv would be a fad...

[4630]

I seem remember that IBM reckoned that seven computers would service foreseeable world demand..... Daryl F Zanuck of MGM predicted that tv would be a fad...

And Bill Gates said that 640k of memory would be enough for anyone.

[rockershovel]

A healthy degree of scepticism is good when considering politicians but an excess of cynicism is just as unhealthy as having unquestioning faith in them.

Most politicians, from all parts of the political spectrum, are well informed and intelligent individuals who are motivated by wanting to improve things. Nobody could possibly be an expert on even a tenth of the matters brought before parliament hence they rely on advisers and the civil service for in-depth analysis and technical expertise.

And as has been pointed out, politicians are very attuned to what voters want so it is too easy to blame them for short termism and an unwillingness to take difficult decisions.

I'm a small government libertarian and think that we need a lot less government yet I seem to hold politicians and even most civil servants in higher regard than people who want the government to solve all problems and save the world.

The great problem is that politicians have become professional careerists with no meaningful experience outside their specialisation, which is basically securing preference, achieving selection and getting elected. They have become increasingly motivated by ideology, which the country as a whole don't share (I don't know any nation in the developed world, less interested in abstract thought than the English) and thus tend to produce a closed circle because the electorate tend to produce the "wrong" answers.

 

This is why politicians tend to be in conflict with the Civil Service, whose function was and is, to provide continuity and technical competence which the politicians don't have. Sir Humphrey genuinely DID know a great deal more than Jim Hacker, had served his predecessor and expected to serve his successor, in the same fashion.

 

I had the dubious pleasure of meeting my MP a while ago, at a Constituency "surgery". He spoke about Brexit and to be frank, my regard for him (never high) evaporated completely on that evening. I've never heard such stuff; I wouldn't dare present my employers with anything so completely lacking in content and substance. He may well be intelligent, well-meaning and intending for the best, but I left with the impression of a man completely out of his depth, in a situation no one understands.

 

As to being "well attuned to the electorate" I'd say that the events of the last two years have pretty much disposed of THAT notion...

Edited July 30, 2017 by rockershovel

[rodent279]

The great problem is that politicians have become professional careerists with no meaningful experience outside their specialisation, which is basically securing preference, achieving selection and getting elected. They have become increasingly motivated by ideology, which the country as a whole don't share (I don't know any nation in the developed world, less interested in abstract thought than the English) and thus tend to produce a closed circle because the electorate tend to produce the "wrong" answers.

 

This is why politicians tend to be in conflict with the Civil Service, whose function was and is, to provide continuity and technical competence which the politicians don't have. Sir Humphrey genuinely DID know a great deal more than Jim Hacker, had served his predecessor and expected to serve his successor, in the same fashion.

 

I had the dubious pleasure of meeting my MP a while ago, at a Constituency "surgery". He spoke about Brexit and to be frank, my regard for him (never high) evaporated completely on that evening. I've never heard such stuff; I wouldn't dare present my employers with anything so completely lacking in content and substance. He may well be intelligent, well-meaning and intending for the best, but I left with the impression of a man completely out of his depth, in a situation no one understands.

 

As to being "well attuned to the electorate" I'd say that the events of the last two years have pretty much disposed of THAT notion...

 

Aye. Career self-serving narcissists is a bit harsh, beacause I'm sure many have their hearts in the right place.

 

Reasoned argument based on established facts I can deal with, even when it's supporting a conflicting view to mine, but lies based on hearsay based on bullsh!t seem to have become mainstream now.

(As it ever was I suppose, depending on how long you've been around.)

[rockershovel]

I don't know about "x based on y, based on z" but when you have two General Elections in two years, producing results which seem to be not only unforeseen, but unplanned for; when a fringe party with a single MP polls 4 million votes; when a Referendum which only ever had Advisory status, so destabilises the administration that a PM who had presided over two General Election victories (albeit one in coalition) resigns in disgrace; when Cabinet Ministers openly brief against each other in the Press; then "something is rotten in the state of Denmark"

 

Regardless of the merits or otherwise of the issue, the planning and execution of the Referendum and surrounding issues seem to be utterly lunatic. It is not, after all, a new issue. Tony Blair promised one, then reneged, in 2004. David Cameron promised one, which was not held due to unfolding circumstances, in 2007 and again in 2010. You might think that the political class would have come to the conclusion that if such a Referendum was possible, then policies which tended to create a general perception that (whatever its faults) the EU was the most preferred option, should be the policy of the day.

 

But, no. Indeed, the political class appears to have been profoundly mistaken about a great number of things, over a long period of time.

Edited July 30, 2017 by rockershovel

[Legend]

I seem remember that IBM reckoned that seven computers would service foreseeable world demand..... Daryl F Zanuck of MGM predicted that tv would be a fad...

They'll never catch on

[APOLLO]

From what I remember the congestion charging zone wouldn't have included Wigan, so you wouldn't​ have paid unless driving to inner Manchester.  Many of the benefits on offer with the referendum were eventually achieved without imposing the charge.  

 

Fairly typical of the sort of misinformation that gets put around in elections and particularly in referendums.  Rather than just asking for a vote on something which is either really attractive or really terrible, there needs to be a full list of the upsides and downsides of each choice, and perhaps even more difficult people need to be persuaded to take account of it rather than just vote on gut reaction. 

 

Each major town Bolton, Wigan etc was to introduce congestion charging, not just Manchester city.

 

info here from 2007  http://www.wigantoday.net/news/congestion-charges-close-in-1-175118

 

Brit 15

[rodent279]

They'll never catch on

Personally, I predict that one day railways will be powered by electri......oh wait.....no, scrap that.....

[runs as required]

I don't know about "x based on y, based on z" but when you have two General Elections in two years, producing results which seem to be not only unforeseen, but unplanned for ... when Cabinet Ministers openly brief against each other in the Press; then "something is rotten in the state of Denmark"

 

But on the other hand you could be in the good ol US of A :-(

dh