Buying at auction

[ianp]

Does anyone make a habit of buying models trains at auction? I noticed that two North London auctioneers seem regularly to have Hornby stuff (old and new) in their general household sales. It made me wonder if anyone prowls these sorts of auctions for bargains.

[Guius]

I've attended auction sales for many years, though not to buy model railway items  I must say. But, having said that the same principals apply. As with most auctions, I presume there's a preview day for you to have a look at the lots to go through the auction beforehand (more difficult if you intend to bid on line and not attend in person) Take time to inspect your prospective purchases, this may include quizzing the auctioneer as to his estimate of the hammer price, then make your mind up 'what the lot is worth to you' and don't forget to add on the buyers premium or commission (usually around 15% of hammer price) plus the VAT on the auction house service when you make your calculation. Remember the auction house is obliged to point out any obvious faults/problems with the lot at the point of sale. You will usually be buying stock at a wholesale price but, included in your purchases will be a few 'lemons' from time to time and you have to 'take these on the chin' always bearing in mind the aggregate price of your purchases. I find 'in the flesh' auctions quiet exciting and good fun, hope you will too.

 

Best of luck

 

Guy

[njee20]

I've bought a couple of things in auctions online, principally to sell on, and have made profits. As someone used to eBay I got slightly caught out on the last lot I bought, £120 'hammer price', plus £20 postage, 23% fees and VAT on the whole lot. Still worth doing, but I'd not buy from that particularly auction house again unless I was buying an expensive lot (their postage fees are flat).

I still keep an eye on some online catalogues though.

[Nearholmer]

In answer to the OP: yes, some people do attend general auctions with a view to obtaining model railway bits, which then tend to find their way to more specialised markets through eBay, or specialist toy/model auctions.

 

I'm aware of this, because I've bought things from a guy who does it, and on another occasion not bought from another guy who also does it.

 

The challenge is that the number of high quality of items that turn up in general auctions these days is low, for the simple reason that the house-clearances that unearthed pre-WW2 stuff mostly happened thirty or more years ago; there isn't much undiscovered treasure left to be found! This means that it is necessary to trawl through lots of auction catalogues to be in with even a chance; one of the guys that I mentioned only bothers with it because his main interest is in furniture, which takes him to auctions anyway.

 

My bet is that what does emerge gets bought by general dealers at nominal prices, then moved on to specialist dealers, who can get it in front of the right buyers.

 

Some general dealers clearly "catch a cold" on old model trains, though, because they buy too high, struggle to sell profitably, and end up with items stuck to their hands ........ I could point you to three or four quite interesting things that revolve round on ebay, not selling, because a general dealer bought too high at auction, and is reluctant to sell at a hefty loss.

 

Kevin

Edited July 31, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Joe MCMLXI]

I've used Auction houses as a source of finding Hornby OO Live steam items.

 

But I do it 'on line' only.  My job, doing a lot of travelling around the UK, allows me collect most items I've bought, cuts out the costly delivery prices they sometimes charge!

 

I managed to spot a Live Steam Mallard loco, put with a DC Flying Scotsman and 3 coaches - fortunately, no mention of 'Live Steam' in the description, but I luckily spotted the 'connections' between the Loco and tender on the Mallard photo - bought the pair of loco's & coaches, including the Fees & VAT, for £85. 

I then sold the Scotsman for £30 on Ebay and the coaches for £15.....

 

But watch out for the commission, as it varies so much between the different houses....

 

joe

[The Stationmaster]

I used to regularly attend specialist auctions a few years ago  (and only stopped because my other auction activity changed) and was a regular buyer.

 

First you need to understand which sort of auction you are going to attend - general auctions might include model railway items but you need to scan the auctioneers' catalogues, most are online nowadays.  Then there are the 'toy auction' category which inevitably can include model railway items and finally there are the really specialised model railway and railwayana auctions.  Again with all of these latter types it's a good idea to check through catalogues.

 

With auctioneers' auctions you need to understand that goods are very often sold as seen/described (although the auctioneer often won't take responsibility for inaccurate description!) so if you are buying a loco you don't necessarily know if it's a runner.  You can visit on viewing days and have a good look but again it won't necessarily tell you if something will work - that is often a risk you take but in my opinion viewing is essential.

 

The catalogue guide price/estimate is exactly that - it is what the auctioneer thinks from his/her experience the lot will make while achieving a fair return for the seller and a decent price for the buyer.  It pays to get used to a particular auctioneer's estimating and to get used to the market they are serving, i.e. who is buying and what they are prepared to pay.  Like anything else it is a market and at the actual auction it will set its own price whatever you happen to think a price should be.  Once you get a handle on that you will start to recognise what can be a bargain and what is likely to be exactly the opposite.  You will also come up against dealers, including Ebay dealers, and they too have their ideas of what prices should be - that can sometimes work to an individual buyer's advantage but sometimes it won't.

 

What a good auctioneer will do (or should do) is lot items together to ensure they sell thus if you happen to want, say, blue diesels, don't be surprised to find them lotted with GWR locos or green diesels or whatever.  This type of lot can work well for a dealer but not so well fora private buyer.  For example back in the day of my regular attendance you could reckon most Bachmann and Hornby locos (excluding Bulleid pacifics in the latter case) averaged around £35 each when bought in a lot - but a lot would usually be 4 locos and might easily include three you don't want.  Get to know how your particular auctioneers do their lotting and see if it works for you.  

 

What you also need to understand is that in addition to the hammer price you will also pay a buyer's commission (check the rate carefully - they vary a lot) and that VAT will be charged on the commission (but not on the hammer price).  For example the auctions I regularly attended added a total of 19.5% to the hammer price to cover the commission and the VAT thereon - you need to take that into account when thinking about your bid limit.

 

Nowadays you can usually bid in three different ways - firstly you can actually go to the auction, obtain a bidding number, and bid in the room; second you can place a commission bid with the auctioneer in advance of the sale and he will bid on your behalf - you bid the maximum hammer price you are prepared to pay but the auctioneer is obliged to get the lot for less than that if he can; thirdly, and increasingly popular, you can bid over the 'net - you again need to register in advance and you will pay a small percentage fee extra on top of the normal commission plus of course you will have to pay postage etc if you actually secure a lot.  Of the three I prefer bidding in the room - definitely more interesting and occasionally can be fun.  Commission bidding is an excellent way of avoiding 'bidding fever' and making sure you don't exceed the limit on a particular lot but it does have one disadvantage because if you miss out on one lot you can't transfer your 'unspent' money to another lot - I usually buy postcards this way and know the auctioneer well enough to instruct him in the commission bid to increase my bid on, say, Lot 45 if i don't happen to get Lot 43 or whatever.  Internet bidding is great if you're selling as from what I've seen it is probably the most prone to 'bidding fever' and people pushing up the price very often sight unseen but it can be exasperating if you're bidding against someone who you can't watch to judge just how far they will go. 

 

However you bid I think it is essential to set yourself a limit - after all you know how much you've got available to spend and you also know how badly you might or might not want a particular lot.  Sometimes you might exceed your limit if you thank, and get the impression, 'just one more bid' will get the thing you're after but you do need to be careful and there are sometimes some very determined buyers out there who don't really care how much they spend - I have for example seen dealers spend over £10,000 (at hammer prices) at an auction and walk away looking happy.  But don't worry unless a dealer is just being awkward or nasty a private buyer can usually beat dealers on individual lots and I have on a  number of occasions.

 

Will you get bargains?   Simple answer is 'yes' if you're in the market for the right thing and occasionally if you're prepared to take a small risk.  Best area for bargains is what are called 'box lots' which usually lurk on the floor under the tables and contain all sorts of assorted junk - which can turn out not be junk when you get them home and go through them.  On one occasion I got several hundred figures because I happened to buy a box lot for something else which was in it, similarly I picked up to loco kits in good condition because I bought a  lot for something else, I didn't even know they were in it and selling them on via RMweb paid for what I did want.

 

Overall if you're careful, if you don't go mad with bidding, and if you're prepared to take the rough with the smooth you will get some bargains but you'll probably occasionally pay a bit over the odds for something.   Overall attending a live auction can be fun and they're great places to study human nature  Give it a go by taking a look at one or two before taking the plunge.

Edited July 31, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[Mark]

I recently won some Mitchell kits at an auction. One of these was a Manor which is no longer available as the artwork has been lost so I bid close to the David Geen list price for the total value in the lot. Other lots included some other Mitchell and Finney kits which appear to have been won by the same person and are now on Ebay.

 

My kits turned up and the manor has had the boiler, firebox and smoke box pre formed which was a service Malcolm used to offer. All the etches otherwise were wrapped in the normal tissue paper. In addition to the Manor boiler I also found a complete set of preformed Grange boiler parts.

 

The person who won the other lots is selling a Grange which came from the same auction. I sent him a message yesterday asking if the kit was complete but didn't volunteer the rest of the information at that stage. I also pointed out that wheels he is selling for a Finney Hall are intended for a Manor and as such incorrect. The response was that the Grange kit is complete and it is up to whoever buys the Hall to change the wheels themselves. In other words he couldn't care less. So if anybody is thinking about bidding for the Grange insist on him sending photos of all etches before parting with any cash because I suspect they will be missing.

 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

[The Stationmaster]

I recently won some Mitchell kits at an auction. One of these was a Manor which is no longer available as the artwork has been lost so I bid close to the David Geen list price for the total value in the lot. Other lots included some other Mitchell and Finney kits which appear to have been won by the same person and are now on Ebay.

 

My kits turned up and the manor has had the boiler, firebox and smoke box pre formed which was a service Malcolm used to offer. All the etches otherwise were wrapped in the normal tissue paper. In addition to the Manor boiler I also found a complete set of preformed Grange boiler parts.

 

The person who won the other lots is selling a Grange which came from the same auction. I sent him a message yesterday asking if the kit was complete but didn't volunteer the rest of the information at that stage. I also pointed out that wheels he is selling for a Finney Hall are intended for a Manor and as such incorrect. The response was that the Grange kit is complete and it is up to whoever buys the Hall to change the wheels themselves. In other words he couldn't care less. So if anybody is thinking about bidding for the Grange insist on him sending photos of all etches before parting with any cash because I suspect they will be missing.

 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

 

His reaction sounds familar - just like the bloke who outbid me on a load of whitemeal kits and subsequently advertised one of them as 'a complete kit' which I knew darned well didn't have any wheels or a motor.  He never replied to my email asking if he could confirm there were wheels with the kit.

[Guius]

His reaction sounds familar - just like the bloke who outbid me on a load of whitemeal kits and subsequently advertised one of them as 'a complete kit' which I knew darned well didn't have any wheels or a motor.  He never replied to my email asking if he could confirm there were wheels with the kit.

 

This chap, Mike, has probably 'harvested' some components from the original lot for other projects and now is trying to recover his costs (dishonestly) best way he can. A shame really, if this person had taken the time to advertised his haul of white metal castings in detail he probably would have attracted more interest.

 

Best

Guy  

[The Stationmaster]

This chap, Mike, has probably 'harvested' some components from the original lot for other projects and now is trying to recover his costs (dishonestly) best way he can. A shame really, if this person had taken the time to advertised his haul of white metal castings in detail he probably would have attracted more interest.

 

Best

Guy  

 

Actually he wasn't Guy - he was well known Ebay dealer who has been the subject of considerable adverse comment at various times on RMweb  for his pricing policy.  I doubt he could actually harvest anything from a kit box as he probably wouldn't understand what the various parts are, his sole interest in model railways would seem to be seeing them as a money tree.

 

And whilst I have seen some very poor behaviour from certain buyers at auction (sometimes of doubtful legality although not at model railway auctions in that respect) at least this bloke seems to bid honestly albeit sometimes pretty hard and he has a very hard-nosed idea of what he can command when he sells stuff on.  At one auction I watched another dealer spend a very large amount of money buying every Hornby (0 gauge) 'Princess Elisabeth' on offer, including some abysmal repaints, simply to stop modellers getting them - a nasty character to say the least and he was doing it at the cost to his buyers of the handbuilt and kitbuilt 0 gauge engines he was buying to sell on; he spent over £20,000 in less than an hour.

[Nearholmer]

I find the "business models" of dealers in old 0 gauge interesting, and contrasting.

 

Some quite clearly hold stuff back from the market, or dribble it out at 'interesting' prices, and are prepared to wait absolutely ages to secure a sale at their price; they clearly value 'per item' profit as opposed to aiming for higher turnover at lower 'per item' profit, and are comfortable to have a lot of money tied-up for long periods.

 

Others operate to a model that is almost exactly the converse, looking for quick turnover, pricing keenly, being prepared to haggle etc., and presumably obtain quicker cash-flow.

 

Some "add value" by servicing everything old that passes through their hands, and doing minor repairs; others clearly "shift on as bought"; some are even rumoured to blur the line around very heavy restorations.

 

It's interesting that each dealer finds their own way, and it certainly makes purchasing more of an adventure than is usual Iain this day and age.

 

I can't afford to participate in the game of pre-WW2 0 gauge hunting, but it sure is good as a spectator sport!

 

Kevin

Edited August 8, 2017 by Nearholmer

[The Stationmaster]

It's not just 0 gauge Kevin.  I was at an auction where a Hornby Dublo 0-6-2T in Southern livery came up and the bidding duly got underway with one chap obviously quite keen to get it - not that he was going stupid but his keenness was apparent.  Which caused someone (who had not bid at all) on the other side of the room to stand up and ask 'who's after this then?'  The keen one duly said 'me' and was clearly recognised by the inquirer who then said 'well he's not bl**dy having it' and duly proceeded to bid the rest of the room into the floor simply to stop the other chap getting it.  

 

Such antics are great for the seller - unlike some of the illegal stuff which still occasionally goes on in auction rooms (but frequently only until one of those in the 'ring' cracks and starts bidding for himself - which can be quite amusing) although I've never seen that at a model railway auction.  And one buyer I know, again not model railways, nowadays only bids over the 'net because people used to bid against him to push him into paying more when he was bidding in the room - bidding on the 'net is anonymous as far as other bidders are concerned and some people see that as an advantage because it means nobody knows if they are interested in particular things.

[Guius]

I too have seen auction fever take over, usually cautious farmers at a farm dispersal sale near Coniston some distant years passed, a combination of hubris and best bitter resulted in 'eye watering' prices being paid for tackle only fit for scrap. The "I'll be b*gg%red if I'm going to let him have it" syndrome kicked in, I often wonder how the purchases were viewed  sober. I've also seen a chap buy almost every lot at a particular furniture auction, out bidding dealers and public alike, only to leave empty handed having registered under a false name and address, his fun having been had.  

 

Best

 

Guy

[Bernard Lamb]

I've also seen a chap buy almost every lot at a particular furniture auction, out bidding dealers and public alike, only to leave empty handed having registered under a false name and address, his fun having been had.

Which is why at Sotheby's you need to register with a credit card 24 hours in advance.

Bernard

[Guius]

I didn't know that Sotheby's held farm sales

 

Best

Guy

[andyman7]

It's a fun old game, and the behaviours of various buyers are well illustrated in the previous posts. To me there is basically one fundamental rule - decide what the lot is worth to you - alone, and that sets your limit. That limit needs to take account of commission, postage, costs. Forget estimates, auction fever, games being played and you'll be alright.

 

Your 'limit' will of course be influenced by whether the bid is speculative (i.e. 'I don't particularly want/need it but at £x it's worth having') or determined ('I know they are worth £x but I've been after one for years and to me I'll pay more just to secure it') but the important thing is that it's your limit - not the auctioneers; and not the other bidders....

[The Stationmaster]

Which is why at Sotheby's you need to register with a credit card 24 hours in advance.

Bernard

 

Probably a consequence of auctioneers being taken for a ride by the likes of that fellah Guy mentioned.  I've never seen it to that extent but I was at one auction where one of the auctioneers subtly inquired of his business partner whether or not a certain bidder was to be considered 'good' for the amounts of money he was spending and whether that person should be allowed to bid for any more lots.

 

And yes there are instances where bidders don't pay up although mostly in my experience that seems to apply to 'phone bidders who having lashed out however much it was to get the lot become most upset when the packaging, postage/courier/carrier, and insurance etc charges come to more than they paid for the lot.  But they're balanced by the others who have paid an amount in 4 figures for something seem quite happy to have it posted to them by Second Class post.  

[Forester]

Those who go to auctions for entertainment do usually end up paying quite a high price for their entertainment, often without realising it.

 

Nothing wrong with that. You pay a lot of money to watch a football match these days.

But don't think an auction is a cheap day out - unless you come home with nothing. The auction process will draw you in and cost you much more than you expect in the end.

 

For those serious about getting a good deal, it's much better to stay detached and bid online at home.

 

By far the best deals are to be had by sniping on eBay. No one knows you're there until bidding has ended. You set your highest bid price while calm and rational, and don't get drawn into a competition. You'll lose items by being outbid but what you win will be no more than the price you set and usually far less.

[ianp]

"But don't think an auction is a cheap day out - unless you come home with nothing. The auction process will draw you in and cost you much more than you expect in the end."

 

Not quite. Sorry to go off at a tangent, but as I discovered recently when auctioning my late father's antique furniture (some very nice, some not so nice) the demand for brown antique furniture has died a death. Some of my dad's stuff went to charity, unsold after 2 auctions. Had I wanted to buy the stuff back I would have been the only bidder on some items. Prices have gone down by 90% in the past 15-20 years, according to people in the trade I have quizzed. Stuff that does sell goes for less than an Ikea equivalent, and for far less than you would pay a cabinet maker to make a reproduction.

[Forester]

"But don't think an auction is a cheap day out - unless you come home with nothing. The auction process will draw you in and cost you much more than you expect in the end."

 

Not quite. Sorry to go off at a tangent, but as I discovered recently when auctioning my late father's antique furniture (some very nice, some not so nice) the demand for brown antique furniture has died a death. Some of my dad's stuff went to charity, unsold after 2 auctions. Had I wanted to buy the stuff back I would have been the only bidder on some items. Prices have gone down by 90% in the past 15-20 years, according to people in the trade I have quizzed. Stuff that does sell goes for less than an Ikea equivalent, and for far less than you would pay a cabinet maker to make a reproduction.

 

I do accept that auctions are part of the fashion industry and some items are out of fashion. But had you bid to buy your stuff back would it have been a bargain? when you could have bought it from the charity shop for next to nothing? If things don't sell well at auction they will be even cheaper elsewhere.

 

I was thinking more of the OP which was about auctions for model trains.

 

As to why people today prefer Ikea junk to antique furniture, I don't understand. Quality is everything. I only ever bought one kitchen table and it still looks fab after 50 years! My grown-up kids have each bought and broken more cheap tables that I can count. Who got best value for money?    .........but I digress.

[The Johnster]

I have a small flat largely furnished in Ikea rubbish, and would prefer the quality of properly made stuff, but it is simply not available in sizes suitable for anyone restricted as to space, unless you are able to have it custom built properly and if I could afford that, I wouldn't be living in a small rented flat in the first place.  There is simply no market for furniture of traditional quality in small modern homes; it won't fit.

 

And if you think Ikea is bad, wait until you come across Homebase!

[The Stationmaster]

Those who go to auctions for entertainment do usually end up paying quite a high price for their entertainment, often without realising it.

 

Nothing wrong with that. You pay a lot of money to watch a football match these days.

But don't think an auction is a cheap day out - unless you come home with nothing. The auction process will draw you in and cost you much more than you expect in the end.

 

For those serious about getting a good deal, it's much better to stay detached and bid online at home.

 

By far the best deals are to be had by sniping on eBay. No one knows you're there until bidding has ended. You set your highest bid price while calm and rational, and don't get drawn into a competition. You'll lose items by being outbid but what you win will be no more than the price you set and usually far less.

 

Depends what you're buying.  If you stand at an auction and watch the Ebay sellers vying with each other for various lots you know full well that they'll be paying less than they will sell things for.  the only problem a private buyer faces, which might turn him into an Ebay seller of course, is the way skilled auctioneers put lots together thus you won't get a fistful of what might suit your layout.  But in respect of wagons and coaches you can do quite well if you pick your lots with care and books are frequently dirt cheap as it's easy to beat what dealers are prepared to bid.

[Armstrong440]

Just remember the old adage...  Whoever bids the most at an auction, has usually paid too much.

 

That being said, I have in the past bought a LOT of stuff from a certain auction house whose name makes it sound as though they should be based on the Isle of Wight.  They are a specialist toy auctioneer, and their catalogue descriptions are usually quite comprehensive and very accurate: their lots are obviously assessed by someone who knows their business.  Every lot I've bought has been sight unseen, based purely on the online catalogue and a single photo, and I have never been disappointed or felt let down by the descriptions.  Usually they sell locos, for example, in lots of three or four, only one of which I will want for myself.  The rest have been moved on via a well-known auction website.  Wagons are usually sold in lots of 15, 20 or 25 at a go, and most of those will also be resold as my modelling interests are quite focused.   Their packaging department is outstanding, with every item individually wrapped, and I well remember taking delivery of a four-foot-long scratchbuilt model of Cutty Sark, complete with glass display case, which arrived perfectly intact.  I still have bin bags full of poly chips and bubblewrap.

 

Over the years I've acquired quite a lot of stuff for myself and more than recouped my costs.  Just remember the hammer price isn't the end of the story.  There's the commission, VAT on the commission, and (for me) delivery costs to be added in too.  And bear in mind that their assessments of models are purely cosmetic: they don't test-run locos, so be especially wary of anything that's kitbuilt.  But be sensible, keep your wits about you, and know the true value of what you're bidding for and there's fun to be had and bargains to be found.

 

- Steve -