2mmFS Long Melford

[Lacathedrale]

Hi Justin, it looks lovely, you must be pleased.

 

With regard to the other areas, is the question still whether you finish off the devilish junction or replace with a station board?

 

Out of curiosity is there a reason why D-sub instead of RJ45? 

 

What does your stock for this layout look like presently?

[bécasse]

To be honest this wasn't the very first run - it took quite a few runs, starting with the bo-bo diesel, to work out which bits of track were still dirty after an initial clean. About 15 mins of strategic track rubber-ing, its running pretty smoothly.

 

 

One of the most useful things that I have learnt exhibiting regularly in France is to use wine corks for track cleaning. It doesn't matter whether they are natural or reconstituted cork or plastic, they all work really well and they are particularly effective for ~9mm track gauge as, except through pointwork, both rails can be cleaned at once by holding the cork parallel to the track. They are obviously non-abrasive and, as they get dirty, can just be rotated slightly. Moreover replacements are readily available, particularly after the shared "picnique" lunch that French exhibitors tend to go in for.

[justin1985]

Bill had already wired some of the boards with 9 pin (serial) D-SUB and 15-pin (MIDI) sockets, so I thought best to continue where he left off rather than start that aspect from scratch as well! The connections towards the bridge are simple, but they get more complex in the other direction (points, crossing gates, presumably also signals etc) so the full capacity of the 15 pins might well be needed there.

 

Current 2mmFS stock consists of:

Working locos:

Industrial Austerity (J94)

Mainline livery class 73 diesel (ermmm no!)

 

Locos needing repairs/bits finishing off:

LNER J39 (building a tender chassis to replace Farish tender drive)

LMS Jinty (first attempt at 2mm Association Chassis, currently has a snapped crank pin)

LNER J72 (Bob Jones kit, first ever attempt, going to completely rebuild the chassis)

And various other etches in the gloat box ...

 

Coaches:

Dapol teak Gresleys X 3 (wrong length for East Anglia, but they'll do as stand ins to start with)

Etches in the gloat box for David Eveleigh GER four wheelers and Bill Bedford GER bogie coaches. I've started working on 3D printed roofs for these using Autodesk Fusion 360

 

Wagons:

Loads and loads of converted Mathieson private owner wagons, and assorted Association etched and plastic kits. Predominantly finished in pre-grouping liveries.

 

You might be able to guess that wagon building is my favourite activity!

 

Justin

[justin1985]

I'm still wavering about whether to complete the junction board as is, or whether to pack it away and build an alternative station board to fit in that space. I'm currently leaning towards completing at least a simple version of the existing junction, but perhaps simplifying the scenic aspects with a few to still swapping out for a station board in the medium term. 

 

The junction itself is really complex in reality, incorporating many sidings and loops:

 

 

Bill had planned a slightly simplified version of this:

 

 

This still looks very complex to me - I've never been a particularly confident track builder, although I am much more comfortable working with PCB sleepers and solder than plastic track.

 

Unfortunately all I have from Bill is the general outline sketch above, and the sleepers, which are already glued down. 

 

 

This seems a bit of a problem! I have no idea how to go about planning the detail of the crossings, angles, switch lengths etc by working back from the existing sleepers? Any ideas or tips on how to approach this?

 

Trying to get a decent overhead photo and loading it as a background in Templot does come to mind as one way, but then as the sleepers are already glued down, it would really need to be laid in situ rather than being able to use a template properly. Seems tricky however you approach it!

 

Justin

[queensquare]

I would draw it out - bendy stick and pencil in my case or Templot if I could get someone to do it for me. I would also lift the glued down sleepers and re-use/replace as required. Trying to build a complex junction like that in situ would be tricky, much easier on a suitable bit of board that can be picked up/squinted at etc

 

Jerry

[justin1985]

Thanks Jerry - I suspect a bendy stick might actually be a better approach in this scenario - but I don't think I'd know where to start using it on something this complex though! 

 

On the positive side, the wishbone shaped ply board that the sleepers are stuck down to is itself only screwed down, not glued, I imagine deliberately so that it can be taken off to work on that way

 

J

[Nigelcliffe]

I think its easier to solve than it looks without digging up stuff, and without complex computer messing about.  Bill wouldn't have used a computer for it, he was from the pencil and drawing boards era.  The removable track section for construction is typical Bill forward thinking. 

 

1 - bendy stick to draw the main rail lines through the existing sleepers.   That will show where, roughly, the crossing V's need to go.  Tweak lines to make V's in sensible places (such as over a sleeper).  

2 - Measure the approximate angle of each crossing V's with a protractor ( or by measuring off a straight line) , to decide if its 1:7, 1:8, 1:9 or whatever.  I don't think you need to worry too much about 1:7.284 ratios, nearest whole number is likely to be enough, just maybe half numbers are needed.  

3 - make some crossing V's to the required angles, there are jigs and tools to help with this.  Only issue is deciding on whether the turnouts are to be on chairs (guess they will be for Bill's layout), in which case the joining shim to link the crossing V to the wing-rails (in the jig) needs to line up reasonably well with the sleepers.  Ideally solder with a high-ish temperature solder so they are less likely to come apart later.

4 - put the crossing V with wing rails down onto the sleepers, using a lower temperature solder. 

5 - Line up the running rails, with chairs under them, and fix in position with the rails straight (ie. not curved, or not significantly curved) on the same sleepers as the crossing.

6 - Fix down one running rail throughout turnout.  

7 -  Add one blade rail, gauged off the fixed rail.

8 - complete fixing of other running rail throughout turnout

9 - add second blade rail, and fit tie bar.

10- check all runs smoothly, no humps, lumps, mis-alignments at the crossing V.   Stock should run through turnout OK in this state.  

11 - add check rails opposite crossing V.

 

Sleepers will need insulation gaps adding, I'd do it in stages throughout construction, whenever I knew where the gaps were needed. 

[justin1985]

Many thanks Nigel, that's extremely helpful. Breaking it down like that helps to show it isn't all that different from starting from a template on the bench.

 

What's the best source of a suitably bendy stick? Are we talking WH Smith "flexible ruler"? I can't see any wooden stick being bendy enough!

 

This would still be my first slip. Gulp ... The TRACK book will be kept close at hand!

 

J

[Donw]

I was lucky enough to find a bit of stripwood flexible enough in our local hardware shop it is about 4-5mm sqaure. I have also used some old plastic curtain track. Whatever you use needs to be rectangular section if you try a bit of quadrant or other non recular section the thinner bits curve easier than the fatter bits so it will try to twist and lift. If can also be easier with someone to help.

 

I would agree with Nigel on the track laying one thing I would do is depending on the crossing angle choose the switch length up to 1:87 I would use a B switch  over 1:8 I would go for a C switch this gives you the planning angles for the blades. The association Turnout blade filing jig makes it easy to get the correct angles. You can measure the lead round the curves to get the right position for the blade tips, leads for common angles are in the tables.

 

Don

[queensquare]

Many thanks Nigel, that's extremely helpful. Breaking it down like that helps to show it isn't all that different from starting from a template on the bench.

 

What's the best source of a suitably bendy stick? Are we talking WH Smith "flexible ruler"? I can't see any wooden stick being bendy enough!

 

This would still be my first slip. Gulp ... The TRACK book will be kept close at hand!

 

J

 

Use a bit of doorstop. Find some without knots so it bends evenly. Its usually about 9mm thick so you can draw a line down both sides which will give you a pretty good guide as a starting point.

 

Jerry

[2mm Andy]

Use a bit of doorstop. Find some without knots so it bends evenly.

 

Jerry

 

Good luck with that! The door stop strips in the last door frame I fitted were utterly awful quality and were chopped-up for a friend's woodburning stove.

 

My local Wickes sells small section hardwood strip (hardwood being a misnomer in this case as it's no harder than pine softwood). Much better quality and pretty cheap too (less than a fiver for a 2m length - enough for several bendy sticks!).

 

Andy

[queensquare]

Good luck with that! The door stop strips in the last door frame I fitted were utterly awful quality and were chopped-up for a friend's woodburning stove.

 

My local Wickes sells small section hardwood strip (hardwood being a misnomer in this case as it's no harder than pine softwood). Much better quality and pretty cheap too (less than a fiver for a 2m length - enough for several bendy sticks!).

 

Andy

 

If you get your timber from a builders merchants rather than one of the DIY chains you can get descent timber. Hardwood is always a misnomer - Balsa is technically a hardwood as its deciduous.

 

Jerry

[D869]

The theme here seems to be low tech, but if you do want to deploy a Templot approach...

 

When I needed to do a curvy crossover to fit into some existing track on St Ruth, I took a rubbing of the track 'on site'.

 

If memory serves, this was too big to fit on the scanner so I drew a straight datum line and measured coordinates for several points (not turnouts) along the existing tracks.

 

I then did a simple drawing in CAD to reproduce the lines and then used the result as a background in Templot. Maybe it's possible skip this step and to draw datum points (not turnouts) at specific coordinates directly in Templot - I don't claim to be a Templot expert.

 

The rubbing was also handy for checking the final Templot templates because I only have access to the layout during our fortnightly meetings.

 

Some words and pictures from the time...

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/595/entry-12256-oh-i-do-like-to-be-beside-the-sea-siding/

 

Regards, Andy

[Donw]

If you get your timber from a builders merchants rather than one of the DIY chains you can get descent timber. Hardwood is always a misnomer - Balsa is technically a hardwood as its deciduous.

 

Jerry

 

I am just surprised you find 9mm timber flexible enough for 2mm turnouts.

 

Don

[queensquare]

I am just surprised you find 9mm timber flexible enough for 2mm turnouts.

 

Don

I don't use just 9mm timber, you can use anything that will flex evenly, metal strip, plastic strip etc. You just need a smooth, even curve. As with many things there's far too much theorising by those who build very little. Switch lengths in 2mm have little bearing. Switch blades need to be filed so they fit snugly into the stock rails, a mm or so either way makes little difference.

Andy's mention of a track rubbing is a technique I've used before to add new sections although I didn't then import it into Templot as I don't know how to drive it - if I had that skill I'd certainly have used it. Ian Rices book on track work has a very good section on drawing your own customised point templates using pencil and paper.

 

Jerry

[Donw]

I don't use just 9mm timber, you can use anything that will flex evenly, metal strip, plastic strip etc. You just need a smooth, even curve. As with many things there's far too much theorising by those who build very little. Switch lengths in 2mm have little bearing. Switch blades need to be filed so they fit snugly into the stock rails, a mm or so either way makes little difference.

Andy's mention of a track rubbing is a technique I've used before to add new sections although I didn't then import it into Templot as I don't know how to drive it - if I had that skill I'd certainly have used it. Ian Rices book on track work has a very good section on drawing your own customised point templates using pencil and paper.

 

Jerry

 

I find for building track in situ very little i eeded in terms of a template. Choosing the right crossing angle to get the routes diverging where you want is the first step then I mark the position of the tiebar using the lead for that crossing angle and then the bendy stick enables you to join the two up with pencil lines. You dont need much else.

The beauty of the Association jig is it will enable you to quickly file blades which have a smooth taper. I have been happily filing blades for years and didn't feel a jig was necessary. I was given one to try when doing trials with pinned chairs and found to my surprise how effective it was.

Using Templot to produce templates for single turnouts is simple it is combining them into a layout that takes time and practice to learn. 

Don

[Nigelcliffe]

Many thanks Nigel, that's extremely helpful. Breaking it down like that helps to show it isn't all that different from starting from a template on the bench.

 

What's the best source of a suitably bendy stick? Are we talking WH Smith "flexible ruler"? I can't see any wooden stick being bendy enough!

 

This would still be my first slip. Gulp ... The TRACK book will be kept close at hand!

 

J

Bendy stick - could use some O gauge rail :-). Or aluminium strip on its edge. Or just about anything which is reasonably uniform. We did the "drawings" (direct on the baseboard) for the track of the extension of Coldfair Green (4mm P4) with the slats from some reclaimed wooden venetian blinds, various G-clamps, and a pencil.

 

The Slip may be a little harder, in part to stop things moving which shouldn't when adding more parts. 1 in 7 likely to be an easier crossing angle for it. 

 

Particularly since Templot became more well known, I think there is a tendency in a few quarters to over-think track drawings. 

 

 

[Izzy]

I think that Bill B would have worked it all out before he started laying the timbers. That if you use 10mm as the rough datum lines for rail position, 5mm both sides of the drawn centre lines I can see, I am sure you will find that where they cross will be the crossing nose at the front edge of an appropriate timber. Given that the track design has already been drafted out by Bill I think you do need to establish these first, and. then kind of ‘join up the dots’. This would save all the effort of having to lift all the timbering.

 

Using Templot as suggested would be another way but you might find that while it is great for generating odd angle obtuse crossings - and there are three in this formation - none of the timbering might line up anywhere. I have found you have to be a bit careful when using it for complex track work. Recently I had to replace a templot generated 1-6 single slip with the 2mm SA version (drawn by Keith Armes) because the former just didn’t have sufficient allowance for using 2FS clearance standard switches along with the necessary rail isolation cuts.

 

Izzy

 

ps. I can’t see a slip anywhere in the photos of this formation, am I missing something? ( there are a couple in the actual station area).

Edited June 8, 2018 by Izzy

[justin1985]

Thanks for all the tips on this, much appreciated! I think this will be a case of working through it very gradually, but it seems a lot less intimidating than it did at first!

 

 

ps. I can’t see a slip anywhere in the photos of this formation, am I missing something? ( there are a couple in the actual station area).

 

True, the OS plan only shows a series of normal turnouts. 

 

But my reading of Bill's diagram is that he'd used slips to save space? Even though this board is pretty big by 2mm standards, its still a massive reduction from scale, and it looks like some of the back to back turnouts have been replaced by slips, or at least diamond crossings?

 

It certainly looks like either platform track should be able to access either route (Stour Valley or Bury St Edmunds) AND the sidings that accompany each of those. The Bury St Edmunds branch one might just be a diamond, if only one route leads to that siding, but the lower one on the Stour Valley route certainly looks like it has to be a single slip? Or am I reading it totally wrong?

 

Justin

[Izzy]

Thanks for all the tips on this, much appreciated! I think this will be a case of working through it very gradually, but it seems a lot less intimidating than it did at first!

 

 

 

True, the OS plan only shows a series of normal turnouts. 

 

But my reading of Bill's diagram is that he'd used slips to save space? Even though this board is pretty big by 2mm standards, its still a massive reduction from scale, and it looks like some of the back to back turnouts have been replaced by slips, or at least diamond crossings?

 

It certainly looks like either platform track should be able to access either route (Stour Valley or Bury St Edmunds) AND the sidings that accompany each of those. The Bury St Edmunds branch one might just be a diamond, if only one route leads to that siding, but the lower one on the Stour Valley route certainly looks like it has to be a single slip? Or am I reading it totally wrong?

 

Justin

 

Very sorry Justin, I do think you are reading it wrong. The O/s might be very early as it doesn't correspond with the diagrams on Signalbox.org.

 

If you look at the Long Melford 1912 dia : https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=1064   you will see that Bill has reproduced the actual parting of the two branches to Glemsford and Laveham as per the diagram. Just plain turnouts coupled with three obtuse (diamond) crossings.  There are no slips at all. Both sidings come off the Up lines. I believe the (very) long term aim Bill had was to (eventually) build the station area as it was, and the arrrangement being built was to get it up and running in a simpler/condensed form, and why it was called 'Short Melford'. Another board with the station would just replace the middle board with the long siding. Hopefully I have it right.

 

Obviously once you know how the track was supposed to be then what is already down will make sense and it might all then fall into place. The track was soldered with Bill's own etched chaiplates I believe, that used to be available through shop 1. I do think that perhaps you will have to make it using etched plates of some kind to get it to all line up height wise. Either the versaline ones of perhaps the new ones from Lawrie Adams. Not tried them yet.

 

Izzy

 

edit - sorry, meant to add that the routes are very much up/down lines, not bi-directional, the FPL's on the bit you are dealing with show that.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Izzy

[Caley Jim]

Both sidings come off the Up lines.

Izzy

That would make operational sense. Anything coming off the down lines would have the loco at the wrong end. One is clearly marked as a refuge siding, presumably to hold an up freight while a passenger passed it, without obstructing the station lines. Down trains could use the long siding at the other end of the station for the same purpose.

 

As an aside, all the curved track, including the turnouts, on Connerburn was drawn with a trammel which had two pencil leads sat in one end at 9mm spacing. I knew nothing about turnout geometry in those days, but it all worked fine! When I added the tandem turnouts in the goods yard much later I did a track rubbing and worked it out from that.

 

For filing point and splice rails and switches I made a jig from a hinge as described by Geoff. How I did it is in one of the early Kirkallanmuir articles. On my phone at the moment, so don't have the references.

 

Jim

[justin1985]

Thanks Izzy - I don't know how I hadn't found that version of the diagram before! The OS there was a second edition, but did seem to be identical to the first edition in terms of track layout - some lazy surveyors perhaps!

 

I see now how the two branch sidings were only accessible from the up platform road. I had been presuming they'd be accessible from both. It does make sense as the yard is on that side of the station. Are the heavy lines next to the points around the junction facing point locks?

 

There was a large stock of etches for Bill's system amongst the boxes of bits that came with the layout, although I'll need to check if the stocks include the special types for check rails etc or whether they're all plain track. I'll also have to read Bill's articles in the Magazine archive to work out how to use it! Again, I imagine it will be harder to use them in situ, rather than in the jigs? I wonder if it might be easier to use the Versaline system?

 

Justin

[Izzy]

Yes, the heavy lines are FPL's. Where possible companies used as few as possible due to the added complexity, and directional rather than bi-directional running helped in this respect.

 

I have only used versaline chairplates, and here is my latest attempt at a layout where I have reverted to soldered track using them and am just in the process of fitting the LNER style of economical FPL's. As it features both a single slip and obtuse crossing between plain turnouts and catch points I felt it was more than I could have managed with easitrac, although it would have probably looked a bit better. Hopefully when it finally gets ballasted it won't be too bad. At least it works ok, which is the main thing.

 

 

Going back to the track layout your working on and the obtuse crossings I do wonder how you will switch the crossings for polarity. Could be an interesting challenge. As working my points has also reverted to purely mechanical means - simple Expo Tools DPDT slider switches working 0.9mm rod to tie-bars buried under the switches - I have used the catch point DPDT's to do this.

 

As I keep reminding myself, and you seem to be finding out, it's all good fun........

 

regards,

 

Izzy

[Donw]

That would make operational sense. Anything coming off the down lines would have the loco at the wrong end. One is clearly marked as a refuge siding, presumably to hold an up freight while a passenger passed it, without obstructing the station lines. Down trains could use the long siding at the other end of the station for the same purpose.

 

As an aside, all the curved track, including the turnouts, on Connerburn was drawn with a trammel which had two pencil leads sat in one end at 9mm spacing. I knew nothing about turnout geometry in those days, but it all worked fine! When I added the tandem turnouts in the goods yard much later I did a track rubbing and worked it out from that.

 

For filing point and splice rails and switches I made a jig from a hinge as described by Geoff. How I did it is in one of the early Kirkallanmuir articles. On my phone at the moment, so don't have the references.

 

Jim

 

Agrred about the sidings normal practice was to back into a siding rather than back out. The Association Blade filing Jig was another of Geoff's designs it can be used for any switch blade A to D.

 

If you use a trammel to draw the curved road on a turnout you will achieve what is known as a natural turnout where the switch radius is the same as the closure rail radius. For 2mm using a 900mm radius will give a turnout very close to an A7, 1200 mm radius will give a B9. Of course using other radii will give you perfectly functioning turnout just not ones matching normal railway turnouts. For most turnouts the switch radius is gentler than the closure rail radius which give a bit of transistion for a train entering the diverging route. This is quite important full size but is really only necessary for appearance on our models.

 

Don

[Donw]

Yes, the heavy lines are FPL's. Where possible companies used as few as possible due to the added complexity, and directional rather than bi-directional running helped in this respect.

 

I have only used versaline chairplates, and here is my latest attempt at a layout where I have reverted to soldered track using them and am just in the process of fitting the LNER style of economical FPL's. As it features both a single slip and obtuse crossing between plain turnouts and catch points I felt it was more than I could have managed with easitrac, although it would have probably looked a bit better. Hopefully when it finally gets ballasted it won't be too bad. At least it works ok, which is the main thing.

 

rmweb 01.jpg

 

Going back to the track layout your working on and the obtuse crossings I do wonder how you will switch the crossings for polarity. Could be an interesting challenge. As working my points has also reverted to purely mechanical means - simple Expo Tools DPDT slider switches working 0.9mm rod to tie-bars buried under the switches - I have used the catch point DPDT's to do this.

 

As I keep reminding myself, and you seem to be finding out, it's all good fun........

 

regards,

 

Izzy

 

For diamond crossings there are usually associated turnouts and extra contacts on whatever switches these can be used to switch the acute crossing on the diamond.  If you do happen to model one of those rare crossing where two plain lines cross there should at least be some signals to avoid a collision and the levers for those can also switch the crossing.

 

Don