Anyone Interested in Ships

[Captain Cuttle]

Latest of a series of Floating Paradise Lost from ocean liner historian and journalist Peter Knego, a ship i always found fascinating. Seemed to be in pretty poor shape towards the end and some disturbing revelations about that in a book i got sometime ago called "Do These Stairs Go Up Or Down" by Robin Boltman.

[burgundy]

6 hours ago, Captain Cuttle said:

Abandoned tourist attractions, museums etc happen so I wonder if the last known Ekranoplan  also known as The Caspian Sea Monster stuck in shallow water off the coast of the Caspian Sea towed there to be part of some sort of collection will ever be restored.

There was an ekranoplan in Moscow when we did the Russian rivers cruise 10 years ago. Across from the cruise ship berth was the site of a naval museum (not sure if it was open or under construction).

 The ekranoplan is on the left, with a tail end view. 

Best wishes 

Eric  

PS Moscow is quite a long way to bring a submarine from the open sea.

Edited April 19, 2021 by burgundy

[The Stationmaster]

On 18/04/2021 at 09:41, MarkC said:

All this talk of tracking websites - I like VesselFinder's app. It often shows more ship identities than Marine Traffic, and as a bonus is free

 

It also often does the same if comparing the standard websites. It's almost as though Marine Traffic is trying to get you to go to their premium (paid for) service...

 

Mark

They definitely are.  I've been using the site for about 8 years on a more or less daily basis and some of what used to be freely available is nowadays being offered as an 'extra' - which you will only get if you pay for it.   It generally still suits my purposes and use as a freebie but if they strip much more out to add to the things they charge for it will hardly be worth using.

[Captain Cuttle]

17 hours ago, burgundy said:

There was an ekranoplan in Moscow when we did the Russian rivers cruise 10 years ago. Across from the cruise ship berth was the site of a naval museum (not sure if it was open or under construction).

 The ekranoplan is on the left, with a tail end view. 

Best wishes 

Eric  

PS Moscow is quite a long way to bring a submarine from the open sea.

Wing in Ground Effect craft are being developed by a company called Widgetworks.

[Chewy750]

Ground effect craft have been part of the ‘toys’ offered on some Megayachts for a while - I recall there being a discussion about 10 years ago (similar to hovercrafts) as to whether they were a plane or a boat.....

[WessexEclectic]

https://youtu.be/ZW0SxfRShI8

 

They don't make 'em like this anymore - Ships or documentaries.

 

End card says filmed in 1986.

[380John]

33 minutes ago, WessexEclectic said:

https://youtu.be/ZW0SxfRShI8

 

They don't make 'em like this anymore - Ships or documentaries.

 

End card says filmed in 1986.

Brilliant documentary. I saw it a few years ago and couldn't find it again. Thanks very much for sharing the link! It's in the favourites now. What a life that must have been. 

 

Amazing how things change. 

[AMJ]

Saw a news article saying that the major shipping groups are looking at ways to make them more economical (aka environmentally friendly).  A simple way might be to look back at history and use wind power.  Imagine a tanker or container ship with sails?

[MarkC]

2 hours ago, AMJ said:

Saw a news article saying that the major shipping groups are looking at ways to make them more economical (aka environmentally friendly).  A simple way might be to look back at history and use wind power.  Imagine a tanker or container ship with sails?

Already being trialled - indeed, Stevenson Clarke (remember them?) had one of their colliers fitted with a device back in the mid-80s. The latest wheeze is kites - I saw one in the Channel, a few years ago. Our first thought - hope he doesn't meet up with an idiot who won't alter course even when supposed to do per the COLREGS...

[billbedford]

4 hours ago, AMJ said:

Saw a news article saying that the major shipping groups are looking at ways to make them more economical (aka environmentally friendly).  A simple way might be to look back at history and use wind power.  Imagine a tanker or container ship with sails?

 

They use rotors instead of sails:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKmME0Iy23c

[Schooner]

Limited comms (holed up waiting for it to stop blowing a gale through Gibraltar) so forgive lack of supporting pics etc, but an area of specific interest for me so thought I'd weigh in

 

Flettner Cylinders, kites, parachutes, hard and soft wing sails and Dynarigs have all been going through various trials for twenty years or more, largely industry-lead but also with some significant government support in some countries. Typically offering 20-30% improvements in efficiency. Of all the hurdles to overcome, the technology side is by far the least troublesome. 

 

Have a Google of Oceanbird, Eco Liner, Neo Liner, Norsepower etc, or check out the UK-based International Windship Association's membership. Plenty going on

 

There are also gains to be made in other areas - hull air lubrication (worked for Viking longboats, works now!), improved routing, use and storage of electricity, alternative fuels, automation etc etc etc... Once the economic and political will is there, change could be rapid and broad.

 

Of course, there's also a lot happening at the 'awareness raising' end of the spectrum too: Fair Transport have operated commercially-viable North Atlantic routes with an engineless sailing vessel (Tres Hombres) since 2007, around Europe since about 2015 with Nordlys, and have plans for a third vessel - a clipper for global routes. TOWT, for example, operate as agents for many vessels to carry cargo under sail around Northern Europe on what is effectively a tramp basis. Ceiba is currently being built in Costa Rica expressly to carry cargo on the West Coast of the Americas.

 

In the UK several vessels of the National Historic Ships fleet have carried cargo in recent years. If you work in an industry that could benefit from carrying goods under sail (which have been mostly marketing-related, but are increasingly commercial) there are many options. For example, the new (2019) engineless Thames Barge Blue Mermaid is looking for work; the sailing trawlers Leader and Provident are looking for new owners. There are a host of designers looking to make their name in this area too. Although typically the cargos have been small quantities of high-value goods (alcohol etc), there have been moves recently towards bulk cargos - plastic pellets and cement for example - which suggest that the model is maturing to a useful state.

 

I can't believe for a moment that the future lies in replicating the past, but it is perhaps worth bearing in mind that apart from a recent c.100 year blip, there have been 5000 years of continuous development for carrying cargoes with wind power. The current operators under sail are proving the continued viability of traditional routes, and the current developers of new tech already have viable designs to exploit those routes...as soon as the decision is made to do so.

 

We live in interesting times

 

Cheers,

 

Schooner

Edited April 24, 2021 by Schooner

[billbedford]

My understanding is that what lead to the demise of sailing coastal trades in the first half of the 20th century, apart from WW1 U-boats, was that the ancillary trades, boat-yards, sailmakers, etc were not profitable with just the work from coasters and slowly nearly all when out of business.  

[J. S. Bach]

On 24/04/2021 at 09:30, billbedford said:

My understanding is that what lead to the demise of sailing coastal trades in the first half of the 20th century, apart from WW1 U-boats, was that the ancillary trades, boat-yards, sailmakers, etc were not profitable with just the work from coasters and slowly nearly all when out of business.  

Also in that time frame, railroads and highways had been extended to a lot of these coastal areas and could carry cargoes quicker and cheaper. Plus the weather was not as much of a factor; Sailing time 0830 am W&TP*.

 

*Wind and Tide Permitting

Edited April 25, 2021 by J. S. Bach

[burgundy]

7 minutes ago, J. S. Bach said:

Also in that time frame, railroads and highways had been extended to a lot of these coastal areas and could carry cargoes quicker and cheaper. Plus the weather was not as much of a factor; Sailing time 0830 am W&TP*.

 

*Wind and Tide Permitting

From memory (which is always fallible), the West London line opened in the mid 1860s, resulting in a very significant expansion of goods traffic on the Brighton. The last ship to land coal on Hastings beach (not an especially pleasant place to beach a ship of any size) was 1871(?) 

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Nick Holliday]

11 hours ago, burgundy said:

From memory (which is always fallible), the West London line opened in the mid 1860s, resulting in a very significant expansion of goods traffic on the Brighton. The last ship to land coal on Hastings beach (not an especially pleasant place to beach a ship of any size) was 1871(?) 

Best wishes 

Eric 

A bit later, and not noted as the last.

[burgundy]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

A bit later, and not noted as the last.

Thanks Nick.

Pelican was certainly the ship that I had in mind. I have been looking for the photo, which I am sure was captioned (rightly or wrongly)  as being the last ship to land coal at Hastings. I have found a picture of her on the beach with a note that she was wrecked in 1879, but it made no mention that she was salvaged. "....much strained..." and "...water pouring through in streams....."  does not sound very encouraging and the comment that "she ceased trading after this disaster" sounds reasonable! 

I know that fishing boats continue to be hauled up on the shingle at the Stade, but the prospect of beaching and unloading a larger vessel on an exposed coast must have been unappealing, especially once you could send the cargo by rail.

I had a personal demonstration of landing a dinghy on Bexhill beach when a squall blew up suddenly (I was the crew/ballast) and it was "interesting" to say the least.

Best wishes 

Eric

[The Johnster]

Isn’t there a Hastings Fisherman’s song on the subject, which explains they can’t go to sea because the wind is in the wrong direction, hence they’re in the pub.  There is, of course, no right direction for the wind to be in, so they are always in the pub...

 

I have considerable respect for the seamanship of anyone who has to work off a beach in this way, and the Stade shelves steeply into the sea so the waves are short, steep, and nasty.  I’d rather be in the pub!

[New Haven Neil]

I'm sure I recall seeing a conventional vessel with Flettner type sail assistance in Japan in the very late 70's when I was a gadget.  The Chief drew my attention to it as it had featured in the MER (Marine Engineers Review).

 

Off to google....

[steve W]

2 hours ago, New Haven Neil said:

I'm sure I recall seeing a conventional vessel with Flettner type sail assistance in Japan in the very late 70's when I was a gadget.  The Chief drew my attention to it as it had featured in the MER (Marine Engineers Review).

 

Off to google....

Yes, I saw it once when out there. Much the same period as when tanker companies started experimenting with 'Sails'.   In reality the ones we had were more like huge wind deflectors, rigged just in front of the accommodation. Add to that slow steaming and various experiments with applications of mostly 'quack medicine'  to reduce fuel consumption.  Fun times with an informal competition between London and Hamburg offices to see who was saving the most fuel. After six months the chaps across the water were supposedly reducing their consumption so much that we reckoned they were making rather than burning the stuff.

[New Haven Neil]

Thanks - I couldn't find a reference to it on line, but I know I saw it! IIRC it was Japanese registered.  'Flettner Maru' perhaps!!  Can't ask the Chief in question, he passed the bar a long time ago.

 

Oh hell, slow speed steaming - set the scavenge fire controller to two a day  .....RND Sulzers didn't like it.  An hour at full power every morning was soon ordered, away from anywhere that the resultant clouds of smoke couldn't be seen.  

[380John]

Good timing for this subject, the cruise ferry Viking Grace has just tested the Flettner rotor sail and has had favourable results..... 

 

https://gcaptain.com/ms-viking-grace-completes-rotor-sail-testing/

 

John

[steve W]

1 hour ago, New Haven Neil said:

Thanks - I couldn't find a reference to it on line, but I know I saw it! IIRC it was Japanese registered.  'Flettner Maru' perhaps!!  C

It's been niggling me. The one I saw wasn't a Flettner, but had more of an aerofoil curved sail. A quick look on Youtube found this one  which best matches my recollection.

Steve W

[Bon Accord]

1 hour ago, New Haven Neil said:

Thanks - I couldn't find a reference to it on line, but I know I saw it! IIRC it was Japanese registered.  'Flettner Maru' perhaps!!  Can't ask the Chief in question, he passed the bar a long time ago.

 

Oh hell, slow speed steaming - set the scavenge fire controller to two a day  .....RND Sulzers didn't like it.  An hour at full power every morning was soon ordered, away from anywhere that the resultant clouds of smoke couldn't be seen.  

 

Only ever did it in steamers where we didn't have that problem! Long and monotonous, but the famous "Cape Dinners" made up for it once we received fresh stores off Cape Town which was always a stopoff to/from the Perishin' Gulf.

Seems crazy to think in today's world of emissions controls etc that I was once in ships burning nearly 200 tonnes of fuel per day at full speed.
I knew a fellow who was in the Gas Turbine powered container ships operated by Denholms and they were burning something like 400 tonnes per day for 30 odd knots.

[MarkC]

10 hours ago, New Haven Neil said:

Oh hell, slow speed steaming - set the scavenge fire controller to two a day  .....RND Sulzers didn't like it.  An hour at full power every morning was soon ordered, away from anywhere that the resultant clouds of smoke couldn't be seen.  

*shudders*

 

KS MANs, with those 'orrible plate scavenge valves, liked it even less...

 

Loop scavenge engines - great at high power settings, but DEFINITELY not at low ones.

 

I was transiting Suez, back in 1991, on the LPG/C "Traquair" - a ship which was definitely a "Marmite" job - which had a Sulzer RLA/B hybrid Main Engine. (RLA running gear, RLB Cylinder Heads). We were a little short on Marine Diesel, because the Office weren't wanting to pay over the odds for fuel at Yanbu, but wait until we got into the Med, so we were running on HFO. The 2/E and myself were on Standby in the Control Room, when the Main Engine Turbocharger rpm suddenly started climbing rapidly, even though the Main Engine rpm was steady. We grabbed the controls, took control from the Bridge & put the fuel lever to Stop. The engine stopped, but the turbocharger rpm continued to climb, until it got to some 20,000rpm, & then there were 2 enormous backfires, followed by the rpm falling. I restarted the engine & the 2/E started changing over to MDO. I then went up to apologise to the Master & Pilot in person for the hiatus. I entered the wheelhouse to find the Master & Pilot almost hysterical with laughter &, almost speechless! One was pointing upwards & one pointing aft. Stepping onto the bridge wing, I looked aft to see our escort tug disappearing rapidly, with a plume of smoke which would have been admired by a WW2 warship ordered to "Make Smoke". Looking up, I could see 2 perfect smoke rings slowly rising in the calm air... Anyway, we were booked to anchor in the Bitter Lakes within the hour, so once anchored I went up the Main Engine exhaust belt (and boy, was it hot, even an hour after stopping) to see what I expected - staining on the bottom of the exhaust trunking opposite one of the cylinders, where unburnt Heavy Oil had pooled, getting hotter until it self-ignited & caused the speeding up of the Turbocharger. Sure enough, when we pulled the Injector, it was poorly atomising. New one installed & we were OK again. Happy days!

 

Mark

 

[steve W]

That's a great one, we could probably have a whole thread devoted to that canal!