Anyone Interested in Ships

[The Johnster]

No, Birnbeck I think, available at more stages of the tide than Grand and the Queens drew a foot or so more than Glen Usk. 

 

My mum told a story which is one of those tales that ought to be true and it's a shame if it;s not.  Her childhood was spent in the 30s in Wattstown, Rhondda Fach, and times were hard.  Not hard enough to stop the boys in the workingmen's club putting a penny a week for the annual jolly club outing to Weston, though.  This always took place on August Bank Holiday Sunday, and the point of it was that Wales was dry on Sundays in those days.  First train down to Bute Road in the morning with a few bottles from the offie, Campbell's to Weston, usually Ravenswood, bar open as soon as she cast off, drinking all the way across, day in the pubs and clubs in Weston, home on the last steamer to catch the last train up the valley from Bute Road, everybody well lubricated by that time.

 

So, Ianto and Evan are over in Weston, enjoying themselves, but time is getting on and the steamer is leaving from Birnbeck all too soon, with the usual ragged messy dash along the promenade by several hundred half-cut Valleys boys as she blows the hooter to hurry them up; Birnbeck's nearly a mile out of town and it's a long and expensive train ride if you miss the steamer!  Ianto and Evan are making their way towards Birnbeck in response to the hooter, and there, slumped hopelessly in a pub doorway, is Dai, completely out of it.  'Come on, Dai, get up, the boat's here, come on, we'll help you'; Dai resists and tries to argue, but the boys aren't having it, so they half-walk half-drag him along to Birnbeck and, just in time, on to the steamer.

 

Of course, they go straight down to the bar, and Dai cheers up a bit at this, revives a little, and joins in the session on the way over.  But they have a terrible time again with him getting off at Cardiff Pier Head, and he resists manfully as they struggle to get him up Bute Street and on to the train.  Once they sit him in the compartment, though, he goes straight to sleep, and if we're being truthful the boys rest their eyes a little as well, it's been a long day, but they get off at Wattstown and drag the now comatose Dai with them. 

 

They carry him up the hill to his house, and at this point it dawns on them that Mrs Dai will open the door and they will very likely be held to account for allowing Dai to get into that state.  So they did what any of us would have done in the circumstances; they knocked the door, dropped Dai in an unceremonious heap on the doorstep, and legged it!

 

A few days pass, life in Wattstown goes on, and Ianto & Evan are walking home from work down High Street when they run into Mrs Dai.  'Oh, there's good boys you were on Sunday, now, isn't it, seeing Dai home safe when he was in that condition, I am so grateful to you both'.  With such a warm greeting, they let their guard down and walked straight into the trap, 'not to worry at all, Mrs Dai, it was no trouble, we were happy to help, do it again anytime'.   'Help!  HELP!!  You stupid pair of b*ggers, he only went over there for his week's holiday on Saturday, you daft sods' and much more, punctuated by assault with umbrella and handbag.

 

See what I mean, if that's not a true story then the world is a poorer place for it!

[62613]

Not quite, but something similar happened to a cadet at Shields when I was there; it's about as likely as Johnster's story above. Phase 1, second year, we're all in digs. The digs were on Beach Road, fairly near the park. He'd been out clubbing and was fairly happy. Two of his "mates" helped him to the front door, knocked on and left him standing there. Landlord comes to the door, takes one look and helped him to the park and laid him on a seat. Later our lad wakes up, staggers home, and knocks on to be let in but there's no - one awake. The next thing is he's shoulder barged the front door flat! 

[johnofwessex]

9 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Clevedon Pier perhaps?

 

No, its Birnbeck Pier at Weston.

 

Thinking about it the Bristol Queen was built to Class 2 standards so perhaps Cal Mac might like to dust off the plans?

[Simon Lee]

14 hours ago, Bon Accord said:

 

It all depends on what standard the ships are built to and equipped/maintained for.

A dispensation is possible for some vessels to reposition between ports for things like drydocking, but this requires a safety case to be submitted to MCA and passengers are generally prohibited from being onboard.

The newest ferry on the Solent is "Victoria of Wight" and she had to be towed from the builders yard in Turkey to the UK as she's not certificated to operate in open waters, even on a delivery voyage.

The Humber is likely classed as internal waters much the same as the Solent so it'd just be a matter of getting the Freshwater there

.

The greatest obstacle to many of these vessels operating outwith their home waters is usually their construction i.e. are they double hulled and can meet the relevant stability criteria both with regard to normal operation and damage stability (i.e. basically how much can they absorb). Each coastal area of the UK is categorised by MCA and this generally relates to the prevailing weather conditions in that locality (i.e. how exposed) and the proximity to a port of refuge. With regard to ferries, one of the more important criteria is significant wave height encountered in the area.

An example of categorisation is that the Firth of Clyde/River Clyde is split into four distinct categorised areas encompassing the upper river, lower river, upper and lower firth.

Another aspect of categorisation of waters is the life saving appliances required to be fitted. For example those operating in inshore waters operate under a more relaxed regime compared to those in open waters. As an example you can have two vessels that are certificated to carry the same number of passengers but one operates in a river like the Upper Thames or Clyde and the other running from Dover to Calais. The former vessel may only be required to have lifejackets for all and a mixture of buoyant aids (buoyant seats etc) and some liferafts plus rudimentary radio equipment. Those in open waters are required to carry lifejackets for all, liferafts/lifeboats for all (plus 25% additional capacity - jjb will know these regs better than me) usually a Marine Evacuation System and be fitted with two rescue boats of which one has to be a fast rescue craft, plus various additional toys e.g. radio/satellite emergency beacons etc.

 

In terms of UK passenger vessels there were six basic classes plus some other subclasses:

Class 1: Foreign going passenger vessels on voyage of (IIRC) more than three days duration.

Class 2: Foreign going passenger vessels on shorter voyages, e.g. ferries to Europe.

Class 2A: Seagoing passenger vessels which operate in domestic waters, e.g. all around the coast.

Class 3 to 6: Domestic passenger vessels operating within categorised areas.

 

Certain vessels could hold class 3, 4, 5 and 6 certification but with certain restrictions on their operation.

For example the Paddle Steamer Waverley can carry nearly 1000 passengers (class 5 or 6, I can't remember) in the Upper River Clyde but when operating in the more exposed lower firth that was reduced to something like 400 passengers (class 3). She also has restrictions on her operation, e.g. designated operating areas, maximum speed permitted, weather/wave height restrictions, maximum distance permitted from a port of refuge etc.  Some of these restrictions have been in force for many decades, others are much more recent as regulations have evolved whilst still being applied to a very old ship, particularly since she's not easy to modify to a point to remove those restrictions.

Calmac and Northlink (Mainland-Orkney/Shetland ferries) vessels are Class 2A and generally have a restriction of "operating on the North and West Coast of Scotland only".

Some Calmac vessels have a restriction on length of voyage, for example one ship has the sole restriction of "Not to be used on voyages of more than 10 hours duration".

Cruise ships are Class 1 passengerships and as well as an additional range of safety regulations if they carry more than 150 people they must carry a Doctor onboard; in comparison there are quite a few ferries running around Europe with many times that number (1000 plus in some cases) and they aren't required to carry any medical staff because of the short duration of the voyage.

 

It's all a bit of a minefield really, particularly when you have vessels of varying age in the mix plus different flag states all of whom have a different take on SOLAS.

What a vessel can and can't do ultimately comes down to how much money the owner is willing to spend at build and beyond.

 

 

Many thanks for your very informative reply.

 

From reading various books it seems the old  Sealink and before that BRSISD built quite robust ships, for their ferry services, interesting that Shanklin later went to the Waverley organisation and was wrecked as Prince Ivanhoe, no doubt with a restricited  disance from shore certificate, though still carrying 800 people when she grounded.

 

I would guess in Sealink days provision of suitably qualified crew for a passage from Solent to the Humber would be relativley easy given the number of routes and crews availble.

 

Once again thanks for your reply. 

 

 

 

 

 

[duncan]

14 hours ago, Bon Accord said:

 

When Pentalina did trials there a few years back the Master in question was horrified at the condition and layout of Ardrossan and stated unequivocally that he wouldn't be taking her in there with a windspeed of more than 20 knots from any direction.

Can't blame him really as it's a desperate place and being a stern loader she'd have to enter the harbour, stop, turn through 90 degrees and then back into the berth. Catmarans can be quite flighty at low speeds and are lightly built, so the usual "controlled collision" carried out by the heavier built monohulls in poor weather isn't an option.

 

Waiting for the news as follows -

 

Strong winds catamaran can't berth at Ardrossan, stuck out in the firth, Arran revolts at lack of ferry, those demanding CalMac replace big ships with wee catamarans keep quiet, sandwiches cold

 

Strong winds catamaran tries to berth at Ardrossan, nudges berth & sinks (slightly with no humans injured), blocks berth, Arran revolts at lack of ferry, those demanding CalMac replace big ships with wee catamarans keep quiet, sandwiches soggy

[Bon Accord]

51 minutes ago, duncan said:

 

Waiting for the news as follows -

 

Strong winds catamaran can't berth at Ardrossan, stuck out in the firth, Arran revolts at lack of ferry, those demanding CalMac replace big ships with wee catamarans keep quiet, sandwiches cold

 

Strong winds catamaran tries to berth at Ardrossan, nudges berth & sinks (slightly with no humans injured), blocks berth, Arran revolts at lack of ferry, those demanding CalMac replace big ships with wee catamarans keep quiet, sandwiches soggy

 

Not forgetting the other alternative considering the current state of the place:

 

"Strong winds catamaran tries to berth at Ardrossan, nudges berth and pier wall collapses into harbour..."

[peterfgf]

On 18/03/2023 at 11:42, KeithMacdonald said:

Oh dear!

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hms-prince-of-wales-repair-bill-for-uk-s-warship-of-woe-hits-20m-fdd9fljzq

 

and
 

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defence/hms-prince-of-wales-scotland-shipbuilders-knew-about-royal-navy-carrier-propeller-shaft-misalignment-faults-4033592

 

 

Shipyards are assembly operations: welding big steel blocks and bolting down machinery to go inside the blocks. 

They only have one serious bit of engineering to do, the alignment of the main propulsion shafting. 

The trick is have as long and as flexible a shaft as possible with as few bearings as possible (but enough bearings to prevent whirling).  Cruise ships and aircraft carriers come into this category and the alignment isn't too much of a problem if you know what you are doing.  At the other end of the scale are tankers with slow-speed diesel engine right aft with a couple of shaft bearings with short stiff large diameter shafts and huge changes of hull deflections with draught.  These come in the b. difficult category by any consideration and S.Korea and China are now well up the learning curve with these ships. . Lots can still go wrong though, especially with unusual wake fields and water lubricated/resin/plastic bearing materials.

Unfortunately the problem (as reported- and it remains to be confirmed) is not too surprising.  On the other hand, even when there was bags of experience around, Swan Hunters had propulsion shaft whirling problems on the Ark Royal and Illustrious (Tommy Wilkin and Strassheim of Swan Hunters had written one of the definitive papers on shaft alignment).

Peterfgf

[MarkC]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-65038617

 

Definitely a "whoops" moment...

[MarkC]

The incident at Leith - it sounds as though she wasn't set up properly "on the blocks". Not good. Lots of injuries too - thoughts with those involved.

 

Gibsons' "Melrose" fell off the blocks whilst in drydock back in 1991 - it was Albert's "hole in the ground" called Wear Dockyard though - those who know the NE shipping business will know exactly what I'm inferring...

 

Mark

[JeremyC]

Fortunately, at least from the reports I've seen, there are no fatalities.

[KeithMacdonald]

Anyone remember Jasper Carrot's story about unlikely Car Insurance Claims?

He could start a new topic on "Shipping Insurance Claims"

My boat was having a quiet rest and then it fell over.

[MarkC]

14 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Anyone remember Jasper Carrot's story about unlikely Car Insurance Claims?

He could start a new topic on "Shipping Insurance Claims"

My boat was having a quiet rest and then it fell over.

It collided with a stationary dock bottom...

[jjb1970]

Falling over on the blocks is embarrassing and highly hazardous, it's a miracle if nobody was killed if it happened in working hours. I must admit I was never entirely happy inspecting undersides in dock and always had a morbid fear of the thing collapsing.

[Bon Accord]

I've seen pictures taken in the yard itself of the ship on her side.

Petrel has an interesting hull form with a very rounded bilge and has little full body underwater, almost fisbellied/yacht like where the bulk of the vessel is supported on the keel with little scope for any bilge blocks of any number, if at all.

Hull shores were in use but there were 60mph gusts in Leith yesterday and the orientation of the dock would have put that wind right on the port beam. High windage vessel too: a lot of top hamper.

Going by the paintwork and hull she can't have been too far away from flooding up as everything looks immaculate.

It looks as if it had been a deeper dock or a floating dock then the vessel would may not only have been more sheltered from the wind but the side shores could have been placed higher.

A very unusual and unfortunte accident and having done a lot of dockings with Dales Marine I've always found their Dockmasters etc to be first rate.

 

[MarkC]

I joined my present ship in dock this trip - spent several hours underneath. However, like most tankers, she has plenty of flat bottom, so no chance of her falling over, even without side shores...

 

Anyway, I should be starting my journey home within the hour - my oppo is now on board; just waiting for the launch from shore to pick me up.

 

Mark

[Bon Accord]

1 hour ago, MarkC said:

I joined my present ship in dock this trip - spent several hours underneath. However, like most tankers, she has plenty of flat bottom, so no chance of her falling over, even without side shores...

 

Anyway, I should be starting my journey home within the hour - my oppo is now on board; just waiting for the launch from shore to pick me up.

 

Mark

 

The decades may pass but that pay off day feeling is unchanged as it was when I was a first tripper. Although they're now far more sober affairs than in times past!

[The Johnster]

9 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Falling over on the blocks is embarrassing and highly hazardous, it's a miracle if nobody was killed if it happened in working hours. I must admit I was never entirely happy inspecting undersides in dock and always had a morbid fear of the thing collapsing.

 

November 1972, a bulk carrier called New Westminster City ran aground while entering Cardiff's Queen Alexandra Lock, caught on the 'Black Ledge', an outcrop of rock on the foreshore below Penarth Head, in a heavy mist and flat calm conditions.  When I went down to see the fun it was low water, about two in the afternoon, and her stern was completly out of the water hanging in mid air, and her keel was making groaning noises; I stayed well back!  There were a group of lads messing about directly underneath, and I shouted at them to come away out of it, only to be told to go forth and multiply.  You wouldn't have got me under there for a million beer vouchers!

 

Felt quite happy poking around beneath Great Britain in Bristol's Underfall's dry dock a few years ago, but she's been there a while and hasn't fallen over yet (though parts of her hull plating and framing are in very poor condition) and she's pretty well supported.

 

Can't find any shots of New Westminster City at low water, these show her at different states of the tide, which was a spring with more than forty feet range at this point.  She'd grounded on the top of the flood, the worst possible moment.  The top photo I think probably shows her mid-moring, with the tide ebbing, another fifteen feet or so to drop, and the second shot is probably an hour or so earlier.  At low water the shoreline was about a dozen yards the other side of her... Shoulda taken my old Halina down with me!

 

My dad was a Cardiff pilot, and of course knew the pilot concerned, bloke called Charlie Trenchard, who died of a heart attack a few weeks after the incident, very likely because of the stress caused by the incident.   Apparently, the engines had been a little slower to react in giving her steerage for a minor course correction than he'd expected, and by the time the tugs had reacted it was too late.  He was absolved of any responsibility at the inquiry IIRC. 

 

Despite the visible bend and the immense strain on her keel with the aft end hanging in mid-air and the bows still partially afloat (note the tug holding her steady), she did not break her back, and after discharging her cargo was repaired and put back into service.  Not at Cardiff, though, none of our dry docks were big enough for her!  I think any wind that day would have done for her, though.

 

[Johann Marsbar]

A couple from Belfast on Wednesday evening........

 

 

[peterfgf]

On 23/03/2023 at 18:20, Bon Accord said:

 

The decades may pass but that pay off day feeling is unchanged as it was when I was a first tripper. Although they're now far more sober affairs than in times past!

Thanks, your comment about her hull form explains a lot.  Most ships have some flat bottom to allow blocks to be spaced out athwartships and I was wondering if perhaps she had a more rounded hull- unusual, there must have been a good reason.

Peterfgf

[jjb1970]

Doing the shaft alignment takes a lot of skill, and it is one of those jobs where experience does count as the guys in Korea, Japan and China are so practised at it they've seen most (I don't think you ever see all) of the potential problems and difficulties and seen how to manage them.

 

One thing I found interesting is that despite all the technological advances and availability of laser alignment tools and instrumentation I saw several examples in Korea and Japan of old timers still doing it with taught wire and mechanical gauges as they were more comfortable with the old way despite younger guys doing it with newer tech. They did it to the required standard (it was verified using more modern tech to sign the class statements needed for certification and approval) quickly and efficiently. I must admit I always took my hat off to the teams doing that job as it does need a lot of skill, it has to be done to very fine tolerances (and we're talking about huge lumps of metal) and if not done right you'll soon find out.

[jjb1970]

I have just read that the USN is sending investigators to Scotland to investigate the Petrel incident. I never realized she had been bought by the USN. 

[KeithMacdonald]

Easy to miss, it's right at the end of the BBC article mentioned by @MarkC

 

Quote

The 76m (250ft) ship has been owned by the United States Naval Facilities Engineering and Expeditionary Warfare Center since October 2022, and operated by Oceaneering International. The vessel was previously owned by the estate of Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen. It was placed into long-term moorage in 2020 as a result of "operation challenges" during the Covid pandemic, and has not been used since. Before this, it had been used for deep water searches for shipwrecks and war graves at sea, including the lost World War Two heavy cruiser USS Indianapolis, which was discovered 18,000 feet (5.5km) beneath the surface. The RV Petrel was fitted out for the specialist searches before billionaire Mr Allen died in 2018, having already pledged to commit most of his fortune to philanthropy and non-profit scientific research.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-65038617

[jjb1970]

It's positive that more naval users are admitting the sensible thing is just to buy off the shelf offshore vessels for sub-sea and dive support work rather than trying to re-invent wheels and ending up with much more expensive, less capable ships.

[jjb1970]

Singapore based Genting Dream coming into Singapore cruise terminal. Although she still carries the Genting name, the operator is now Resorts World, the company that operates the Sentosa Island resort in Singapore. Another of their ships was already alongside (bottom image). I wonder how much it costs to maintain the fancy paint?

 

[jjb1970]

Some ships in the anchorage off Marina South Pier, Singapore, today.