Anyone Interested in Ships

[Zero Gravitas]

On 09/04/2023 at 01:15, The Johnster said:

In that tragic incident, the two expresses were relatively lightly loaded, and the crowded one, the suburban service that had been routed to the up main ahead of the Perth express, was stationary at the moment of the collision.  If one were to replicate the circumstances with crowded modern services, say at Didcot with an up South Wales or Bristol 800 rammed with standing passengers at 125mph hitting an up train in the up main platform, to be struck almost immediately by a down 800 at a similar speed, the carnage in the up express doesn't bear thinking about...

 

Brilliant. As I wait on platform 2 for the 09:27 Didcot - Paddington on Wednesday morning, this will be all I will be able to think about….

[jjb1970]

I was never really worried about sinking at sea. There was only one moment when a big container ship I was on got caught in a typhoon just off the coast of Japan that I was really worried. What did worry me was fire, ships are terrible things for fires, espcially in engine rooms, and depending on ship type the cargo can be a floating fire waiting for ignition. Fires in containers are a major issue, there has been a few awful incidents arising from misdeclared cargo. Unfortunately the same maritime Administrations that are happy to throw the book at crews for any infraction (which really is fair enough, rules are rules) won't stamp down on misdeclared cargo because of the burden it'd impose on them.

[Pacific231G]

On 10/04/2023 at 06:22, Ozexpatriate said:

Costa Concordia is a good case study for a capsized 'block of flats'.

 

With 4,252 people aboard there were 33 fatalities, including (later) a salvage member.

 

Yes it was close to shore (the proximate cause of the accident), but it did suffer a dramatic loss of stability. I'm not sure that a similar capsize, further offshore would see an order of magnitude more fatalities - likely *some* more - I'm no expert in evacuating cruise ships, but offer it as an example.

 

After the MV Cougar Ace loss of stability in the North Pacific, all 23 crew were rescued. There was a salvage fatality that resulted from a nasty fall.

 

With the Costa Concordia you might well have seen two orders of magnitude more fatalities and double those for the Titanic. 

It was much the same with the Herald of Free Enterprise diaster at Zeebrugge. Had it not been for the good fortune that the ship part capsized onto its side on a sand bank there could well have been a complete capsize in open water with a near total fatality rate. I've always been a  bit haunted by that disaster as I travelled Dover-Calais on one its sister ships the weekend before. On board they were showing a video "explaining" how dangerous the Channel Tunnel was going to be. I had though been made aware of doubts about TT's  safety standards some time before Zeebrugge- though not enough to stop me from travelling on their ferries.

[Ozexpatriate]

8 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I was never really worried about sinking at sea. There was only one moment when a big container ship I was on got caught in a typhoon just off the coast of Japan that I was really worried. What did worry me was fire, ships are terrible things for fires, ...

My Dad, who served in the RAN had a similar perspective. He experienced a tropical cyclone off Fiji, where green water was crashing onto the flight deck of the aircraft carrier (the old HMAS Sydney / R17, Majestic Class) he was sailing on. He said the whole mess was seasick, but what was more frightening was the prospect of fire.

[New Haven Neil]

8 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I was never really worried about sinking at sea.

 

I didn't until the point when I did not join a ship I had been scheduled to go back to as I had been on her before, as it was late getting to the crew change port - I went to another of our vessels instead.  A few weeks later, we were at the same destination port, forlornly awaiting news from her - the Derbyshire.  Always had a little survivors guilt about that.  After that time, I often felt rather vulnerable in very bad weather, but never sailed on a big bulk carrier again, as I was to be a 'gas man' - LPG tankers.  My imagination sometimes creates an image of what it would have been like in the engineroom as she sank.....not good.

[Ozexpatriate]

6 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

could well have been a complete capsize ...

The question is the buoyancy dynamics of 'block of flats' vessels and whether they are more likely to end up on their sides or keel up. 

 

Rate of roll, ocean conditions etc, would of course all be factors.

[Schooner]

14 minutes ago, New Haven Neil said:

My imagination sometimes creates an image of what it would have been like in the engineroom as she sank.....not good.

I think all of us have this response to a close call - it's a way of coping with the event and preparing for the future. The trick is to keep ahead of the curve and put those thoughts away before it stops being a useful tool and starts being a nuisance. 

 

I spent most of last worrying about poor Ian Herbert-Jones, not knowing what he's going through but just enough to feel how grim it must've been, and running through various scenarios in my head. First of the fishing vessels coming to his aid look to be an hour or so out,  🤞 for them all.

[Hilux5972]

Just taking a moment to remember the 1496 people who perished 111 years ago today at 2.20am in the middle of the North Atlantic when the RMS Titanic sank. And never forgetting the great liner herself as well. 

[jjb1970]

This is a sad sight for anyone who remembers the old Singapore container terminal in its glory days, taken today. The Tanjong Pagar side (left) is basically decommissioned and empty, the Brani Island side (right) still has a little bit of activity but is rapidly running down ready to be closed. This was once one of the busiest container terminals in the world.

 

 

[Bon Accord]

10 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

This is a sad sight for anyone who remembers the old Singapore container terminal in its glory days, taken today. The Tanjong Pagar side (left) is basically decommissioned and empty, the Brani Island side (right) still has a little bit of activity but is rapidly running down ready to be closed. This was once one of the busiest container terminals in the world.

 

 

 

No doubt primed for more high end apartment blocks etc.

I'm sure it was only about 20 years ago that Pasir Panjang was still the old Keppel cargo wharves complete with the pre war warehouses and  to the East the drydocks and shipyard.

Sadly long gone are the days for there to always be a "Far East Bay" to be seen, with the lads enjoying a short trip upto Orchard for some presents for her indoors, thence Clarke Quay or Boat Quay for a feed and a drink.

Back in BP days the usual haunts were Peoples Park or the Caveman Bar. The latter was owned by BP's preferred ship swindler in Singapore, a fellow by the name of Jimmy Goh. Arthur Daley and Del Trotter had nothing on that bloke, but immensely likeable with it of course; he could get you absolutely anything. After one heated argument due to him supplying lengths of bamboo in place of the ordered telescopic paint roller handles, I flippantly asked him for a case of Irn Bru and he rolled up to the ship a couple of days later (we were in Bukom) with two cases. Charged me the earth but it was worth it!

Do you remember that hardback book which was some kind of international ship stores catalogue and which was universally used by agents and chandlers everywhere? I forget the name of it.

Jimmy got me out of some hot water once when I missed a flight home after a merry evening with my shipmates - celebrating the end of another long trip - down Orchard Road. Extra night booked in the Orchard Hotel, excuses made to HQ and tickets rebooked via his contact at Changi before I even woke. His sidekick - a bloke called Yogi - collected me in person the following evening to make sure I caught the flight. Our usual agents were always Jardine Matheson, but they all worked in concert of course.

Happy days and a time now long gone.

It's only when you become an older git yourself that you begin to appreciate just why the old duffers you encountered as a youngster used to wax lyrical about times past. Particularly where one mention or a picture awakens so many daft memories.

 

[jjb1970]

Yep, the land is worth a fortune, prime waterfront land close to the commercial centre and civic district. When I first came back out I had a walk around Tanjong Pagar and although most of the area is unrecognisable the old food court is still there and the conservation shops. Singapore was great as once you got to the terminal gate it was a hop across the road to Tanjong Pagar if you just wanted to get something to eat and visit convenience shops, and with the MRT station giving easy access to Orchard Road and other places. The problem was getting to the gate as some of the berths were a long walk if you missed the minibus and didn't want to wait for the next one, especially on the Brani side.

 

My office is in Raffles Place, the commercial district, and if you know where you are it's barely a five minute walk to Tanjong Pagar. Pasir Panjang isn't too bad, it's further out than Tanjong Pagar but still reasonably close to the central area and nowadays there's an MRT station just outside the terminal so a run ashore is very doable on the off chance people get the opportunity for it. However I feel sorry for those going into the new mega-port at Tuas, it's Singapore's equivalent of Siberia. I know Singapore is a small island, but it's nowhere near the MRT, bus services to it aren't great and taxis don't want to go there as it's a long way for a one way fare. You'd need a good window to get a decent run ashore from Tuas, there aren't even many options close by. A good thing about Singapore is the various districts are very well served by local facilities (shops, restaurants, entertainment) so you don't need to go into the downtown (we tend to stay on the West side of the island and rarely go into Orchard, Bugis, the Civic District etc). There's almost a secondary city centre at Jurong East on the West side but even that's nowhere near Tuas. The nearest place worth making the effort unless it's just to get off the ship may be Boon Lay, and that's a long way.

 

However, I guess it is progress of a sort.

 

 

[NorthBrit]

Oslo 13th September 2022

 

 

AIDAluna leaving Oslo 13th September 2022

 

[Schooner]

2 minutes ago, NorthBrit said:

 

 

Danmark?

[MarkC]

20 hours ago, Bon Accord said:

 

Do you remember the hardback book which was some kind of international ship stores catalogue and which was universally used by agents and chandlers everywhere? I forget the name of it.

 

There were two - the ISSA catalogue and the IMPA catalogue.i've used both, but my employer of the last 12 years (anniversary was last week) only uses the IMPA one.

 

Mark

[KeithMacdonald]

I don't think I'm going to have to get my UK charts updated, but as the article says - it's mind-boggling. Any submarine drivers in the house?

 

Quote

“It’s just mind boggling.” More than 19,000 undersea volcanoes discovered

 

https://www.science.org/content/article/it-s-just-mind-boggling-more-19-000-undersea-volcanoes-discovered

[The Johnster]

If they take out a few of those cocaine-smuggling submarines I won't lose any sleep over it...  I mean, it's sad for the crews, largely forced to sail the things against their will in appalling and dangerous conditions, but anything that reduces the obscene profits and terrible damage the barons cause is welcome in my house!

Edited April 23, 2023 by The Johnster

[NorthBrit]

On 21/04/2023 at 22:59, Schooner said:

Danmark?

 

Do not know.  It could well be.

[SHMD]

Six days ago I was up in the northern half of Sweden.

Bally cold and everthing was ice locked with 0.8m of snow on the land. (Roads and paths clear though)

So no pics of any boats.

 

Today, I find myself a few thousand miles south east of there (and about 40 degrees warmer).

Guess where: -

 

 

 

Kev.

 

[Kylestrome]

On 30/03/2023 at 06:45, jjb1970 said:

RCL Spectrum of the Seas in Singapore. This is the first time I have ever seen her on this side of the cruise terminal, and the first time I've seen her stern first, cruise ships normally enter Singapore cruise terminal bow first.

 

 

 

I hope you nautical buffs don't mind a simple question from a land lubber layman.

 

When I see pictures of cruise ships like this I think they look awfully top heavy. What stops them just falling over when the first decent sized wave comes along?

[The Johnster]

Looks like a block of flats, doesn't she.

 

Bothers me for the same reason, Kylestrom.  The answer, such as it is, is firstly that they are quite beamy in proportion to their length, unlike the classic ocean liner profile, and secondly that everything above the uppermost main through deck is relatively lightly constructed.  Computer modelling at the design stage and CAD during construction is able to make better predictions as to how the vessel will behave in any given set of circumstances than was available to the designers of more traditional looking ships.  That said, they must be 'stards to handle at low speed in a gusty crosswind, much as in he Ever Given incident but in that case the high structure that caught the wind and took her off-course was stacked containers rather than passenger accommoadation.   Didn't take much to tip Costa Concordia over disastrously though, did it.

 

I don't get the feeling that these behemoths are fundamentally unseaworthy in the way that Ro-Ro ferries that get water in the cargo space are, though.

Edited April 26, 2023 by The Johnster

[St Enodoc]

On 21/04/2023 at 00:42, jjb1970 said:

This is a sad sight for anyone who remembers the old Singapore container terminal in its glory days, taken today. The Tanjong Pagar side (left) is basically decommissioned and empty, the Brani Island side (right) still has a little bit of activity but is rapidly running down ready to be closed. This was once one of the busiest container terminals in the world.

 

 

Wasn't the building on the left once the home of the Neptune Theatre (the only legitimate one of its kind in Singapore)?

[St Enodoc]

On 21/04/2023 at 12:08, Bon Accord said:

thence Clarke Quay or Boat Quay for a feed and a drink.

...and thence Bugis Street for more fun.

[jjb1970]

On 26/04/2023 at 03:18, Kylestrome said:

 

I hope you nautical buffs don't mind a simple question from a land lubber layman.

 

When I see pictures of cruise ships like this I think they look awfully top heavy. What stops them just falling over when the first decent sized wave comes along?

 

Stability is a function of several parameters such as hull form, weight distribution and tank configuration. The key parameters is the metacentric height, which is the difference between the metacentre and centre of gravity, and the righting lever which results if the ship is inclined. The metacentric height is generally given as 'GM', the righting lever is given as GZ. A positive righting lever/GZ (arising from a GM of greater than 0) will return the ship upright, a negative one (arising from a negative GM) will cause the ship to roll. Note that it doesn't necessarily mean it will go over, an initially negative GM can induce an initial roll but the hull finds a stable equilibrium and sits an what is called an angle of loll.

 

The greater the positive GZ the more violent the roll motion as it brings the ship back upright much more quickly, so although it might seem counter-intuitive ships routinely use ballast to reduce stability to make the roll motion less violent. It's not just about weight distribution, free surface is crucial which is the effect of a wave effect in slack tanks. Many ships have special ballast tanks designed to utilize free surface to reduce GZ to make the ship more comfortable. I'm keeping this descriptive but as you can imagine it is a series of mathematical relationships with associated calculations.

 

Something to note is that stability as used by mariners and naval architects is not the same as when that word is used by passengers and the public. Stability as used by the public tends to mean comfortable motion, that can actually be the result of low stability though it might also be because of things like active fin stabilizers.

[jjb1970]

11 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

...and thence Bugis Street for more fun.

 

Not sure, I think that was before my time. The most left building in the pic is the old St. James power station which is now the HQ of Dyson:

 

 

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

Not sure, I think that was before my time. The most left building in the pic is the old St. James power station which is now the HQ of Dyson:

 

 

Thanks. I was conflating two things in my mind - I should have checked. The "flying saucer" on the right was the revolving restaurant, on top of the Prima Taste building. The Neptune Theatre was further along the waterfront, on Collyer Quay. Both now gone.