Peco Turnout Help - DCC

[bluesparky]

Hello all, 

 As I’ve stated elsewhere, I’m yet to build my model railway, that’ll be later in the year so I’m currently purchasing all the kit beforehand so I can go at it in one hit.

 

 I’m starting to get quite confused about how to wire up my Peco Electrofrog turnouts and their motors.

 

 I’ve looked on-line at dozens of websites, within the pages of this forum, in Brian Lambert’s book, on the packaging of the actual turnouts and they all say something slightly different to each other, so although I’ve probably seen the answer I’m after, I don’t know which is right for me 

 

 As an example, I’ll be using the Code 75 SL-E191 / SL-E192 small radius turnouts.

 

 I know that essentially the turnouts can be used for DCC straight out of the packet (I’ve a gauge master prodigy system) but require some tweaking for smooth and slow operation.

 

 As far as I can see the adjustments I need to make are:

 The turnouts need to have Isolated Rail Joiners fitted 

 Cut the Factory Bonding Wires cut (on reverse) 

 Add two more bonding wires between:

outside main rail and its adjacent closure rail

outside diverging rail and its adjacent closure rail

 I think I need to supply power before the turnout, and also on the outside main rail, and outside diverging rail, then full power needs to be applied to the tracks which are present after the turnouts / insulated rail joiners.

 

 Does this sound right?

 I’ve attached a couple of pictures to illustrate what I think I’m talking about.

 

 Then we move on to the motor / solenoids.

 

 I’ve bought some Peco PL-10 point motors / switch machines in order to mount them under the baseboard to remotely switch the points.

 

 I noted that I’d need some extending pins for them, so I’ve got them too.

 

 I thought that the motor would be enough on its own, but everywhere seems to suggest that I now need a PL-9 mounting plate for each motor too? Is this correct?

 

 But then I read elsewhere that I need a PL-13 Accessory switch instead for each PL-10 motor? What does this do? Am I not OK just to use a PL-9 mounting clip per PL-10 motor and wire up the motors on their own? I’m unsure what the PL-13 does. 

 Once I know what the PL-13 does, would I need a PL-9, PL-10 and PL-13 per turnout?

 

 I’m all set to build the bus for the layout, with several power districts for the main lines, station & fiddle yard.

 

 However, several places where I’ve been reading have involved the power feed for the point Motors coming from the main bus for the track. Is this right?

 

 I assumed that the motors and other accessories (signals, lighting etc) would have their own feed / bus?

 

 For the control side of the point motors I’ll use individual On-off-off sprung microswitches per turnout and a CDU (not sure which one yet), on a mimic panel, which I’ve not built yet!

 

 

 

 (One last thing!! I’ve see things labelled like “FROG POLARITY SWITCH”, is that just a fancy name for a point motor?)

[John ks]

Your picture looks right to me

 (One last thing!! I’ve see things labelled like “FROG POLARITY SWITCH”, is that just a fancy name for a point motor?)

 

NO, the PL13 Acccessory switch is used as the as the “FROG POLARITY SWITCH”,& it clips onto the bottom of the point motor

 

The PL10 is the point motor & it does the hard work of moving the point blades & acccessory switch if fitted

If you were cliping thre point motor directly to the point then you wont need the PL9

But as you are remotely mounting the points then you will need the PL9

 

 

 However, several places where I’ve been reading have involved the power feed for the point Motors coming from the main bus for the track. Is this right?

 

 

The power feed for the point motors may come from the DCC bus if you are using Stationary decoders to drive your point motors

 

Because you will be using switches & a CDU to control the point motors you will need 16V AC power for them(or whatever the CDU manual specifies )

 

 I assumed that the motors and other accessories (signals, lighting etc) would have their own feed / bus?  YES

 

​​John

[Pete the Elaner]

You should have power fed from the toe end of the point (right end in your picture), although if you also want to re-feed the point itself, then why not extend the link wires (labelled B) back to the power bus?

Always use insulating rail joiners where you have marked them, whether you think you really need them or not. This will save you time fault finding once all the track is laid. Once it is laid, it is much easier to add an extra feed than lift track to add an insulator.

This leaves your frog unpowered, which is why you need a the frog polarity switch. You have included this in your diagram though. I found PL-13s unreliable on a previous layout of mine, but that was 15 years ago. If you develop a dead frog, then this is the first place I would check.

I now use microswitches for frog polarity. I find them much more reliable although they do take a little adjustment to get set up just right. They are a lot cheaper than PL-13s too.

[bluesparky]

OK, Great, thank you for your help so far.

 

So the wiring is as illustrated and I'll need a PL-09 per PL-10, thank you.

 

I'm still unsure as to what the frog polarity switch does and what a microswitch would do instead? Does that mean each turnout could potentially need two switches?

 

Would I be right in thinking that the frog itself is left unpowered if one isn't used? 

 

When changing the polarity of the frog, does anything need to be considered or can it be done at anytime as long as nothing is running over it?
 

Is there a way that it can be connected to the same microswitch that is moving the PL-10?

 

Also, does anything else need to be considered if two sets of turnouts are used as a pair in order for a loco to change adjacent tracks?

[Pete the Elaner]

By cutting the connectors "A" & adding isolated rail joiners, you will be cutting off power to the frog. It needs power, but which polarity (or phase for AC/DCC before someone corrects me on that) depends on which way the point is thrown.

 

PL-9 is a mounting plate. It has nothing to do with the electrical contact. I have never used these. The point motor will fix directly to the base of the point itself or if you bend the tabs over, you can screw it to the baseboard with some screws & washers.

PL-13 will provide the power to the frog. Because it attaches to the point motor, it will switch the frog's polarity when you switch the point.

I have found these unreliable in the past so now use a microswitch instead. These are not perfect either. They seem to be more reliable but require adjustment to get them to throw exactly at the right time.

 

There are 2 reasons for switching the frog separately:

1. You no longer rely on point blades for contact. These can get dirty & provide an unreliable contact especially if you have weathered & ballasted the track or the layout is in a slightly damp environment. Code 75 has no tabs which touch the bottom of the rails either, so you are relying on the point blade contact.

2. Some rolling stock can actually short out the connections. This is more likely with older or poorly adjusted wheelsets. A DCC system will detect the short quickly & cut power to the entire layout. This is where you may hear some people talk about "wired for DCC" which is not really correct. DC will short here. You will see a spark & the train will continue, possibly with a very slight hesitation. It is technically not very good for the controller but it should not do the controller any real damage. It should still be avoided if possible though & the way you are looking at wiring will avoid it.

 

If you have a crossover, you can switch both point motors with 1 switch at the control panel but the frogs will have to be switched separately.

 

Incidentally, none of these questions are silly so don't hold back from asking more! It is much better to ask things like this now than to go ahead with something which will be awkward to fix later on.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Pete the Elaner

[Miss Prism]

 

 

 

 

For DCC, connect a and b together.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Miss Prism

[terrysoham]

For the avoidance of doubt note that in Miss Prism's crossover diagram there are two missing insulated rail joiners.

I'm sure that you realised but I thought I'd better say.

Kind regards

[bluesparky]

Thank you for the continued advice. I THINK Miss Prism's diagrams look like they illustrate just what I needed to know, but what do the dotted lines signify?

Forgive me, I'm trying not to get too confused, but does the diagram include switching for the actual frog, or just switching for the point motor?

 

 I was going to include the two isolated rail joiners that Terry kindly noted.

 

 Most of my rolling stock is new, with the exception of a couple of Hornby APT full trains and a Hornby Duchess of Sutherland 4-6-2 from the late 70's which is my only worry about shorting out on the frog.

 

Thanks once again, and thanks for being patient with a DCC newbie!

[John ks]

The dotted lines indicate the mechanical connection between the point blades and the switch.(IE when the blades move so does the switch)

The diagram only indicates the switching for the frog

 

The point motor or its wiring is not shown in  Miss Prism's diagrams

 

John

 

Edit If you look here  you will find images of PL10 & PL13 that may be of help,

 

here is an image of a PL10 &PL13 mounted under a layout black & yellow wires are for the point motor & The green blue & red wires are for the accessory Switch

Edited August 13, 2017 by John ks

[Psiborg]

You can wire the frog to a switch to improve reliability but you don't have to!  On all three of my most recent layouts I have used live frog code 100 Peco points fresh out of the box - fitting them without alteration and just taking a little care when painting and ballasting the track.  I have had no problems with operation using DCC sound fitted locos!

 

LONDON ROAD (picture courtesy of Andy York/BRM)

 

Cheers

Simon

Edited August 13, 2017 by Psiborg

[Miss Prism]

For the avoidance of doubt note that in Miss Prism's crossover diagram there are two missing insulated rail joiners.

I'm sure that you realised but I thought I'd better say.

 

???

[BR60103]

Bluesparky:

The "frog polarity switch" is a description of its function. It can be any of:

stuck below the Peco motor

part of another switch machine like the Tortoise.

a separate switch -- I use a microswitch operated by the point tiebar.

another switch -- some people use a slide switch to move the points and you can connect the points through that.

 

The switch must change over before you try to run through the points. If you don't break the jumpers underneath, you get shorts when the points move at a different time than the switch. 

Side note: The short Y points don't seem to have the jumpers underneath.

[The Bigbee Line]

???

Yes there should be insulated joiners on both sides of the frog/crossing. Good diagram though.

[The Bigbee Line]

Cyril Freezer always drummed this one in.

 

If you do not insulate beyond the frog you can get a short circuit in certain circumstances, especially a loop.

 

See my crudely edited example

[The Bigbee Line]

You can wire the frog to a switch to improve reliability but you don't have to!  On all three of my most recent layouts I have used live frog code 100 Peco points fresh out of the box - fitting them without alteration and just taking a little care when painting and ballasting the track.  I have had no problems with operation using DCC sound fitted locos!

 

LONDON ROAD (picture courtesy of Andy York/BRM)

Feature2.jpg

 

Cheers

Simon

Do you switch the live frogs? or are you relying on blade contact to do the switching?  If you do, what switch do you use,

 

Thanks

[Miss Prism]

Cyril Freezer always drummed this one in.

 

If you do not insulate beyond the frog you can get a short circuit in certain circumstances, especially a loop.

 

That is an additional electrical constraint. Insulation beyond the vee is required only in certain circumstances. (And obviously depends on electrical context: diamonds, return loops, etc). In normal circumstances, incorporating insulation beyond the vee is both unnecessary and undesirable.

 

I think one can understand why dear Cyril said that sort of thing though, in those days.

[The Bigbee Line]

That is an additional electrical constraint. Insulation beyond the vee is required only in certain circumstances. (And obviously depends on electrical context: diamonds, return loops, etc). In normal circumstances, incorporating insulation beyond the vee is both unnecessary and undesirable.

 

I think one can understand why dear Cyril said that sort of thing though, in those days.

I agree that it is only required in certain circumstances.

 

If not fitted in loco sidings and you stable a DCC loco, as soon as you throw the points against that siding the loco will loose power as both rails are then the same polarity.

[Miss Prism]

If not fitted in loco sidings and you stable a DCC loco, as soon as you throw the points against that siding the loco will loose power as both rails are then the same polarity.

 

That is an additional, and arguably somewhat peculiar, operational demand. In general, I think it is a Good Thing that power is lost when turnouts are not set appropriately, as dear Cyril would no doubt have concurred.

[Pete the Elaner]

That is an additional, and arguably somewhat peculiar, operational demand. In general, I think it is a Good Thing that power is lost when turnouts are not set appropriately, as dear Cyril would no doubt have concurred.

I have to disagree with you on that. It is not an additional demand & certainly not peculiar.

 

For DCC it is a good idea to leave as much track powered as possible in order to:

Leave lights on.

Leave the engine idling.

Allow independent control regardless of the point setting.

 

Switching siding power with the point also relies on rail joins for connection & these can be poor once ballasted/weathered.

Isolating then re-feeding makes fault finding a lot easier too.

 

For all the above reasons, many of us view isolating & re-feeding to be good practice.

[Pete the Elaner]

You can wire the frog to a switch to improve reliability but you don't have to!  On all three of my most recent layouts I have used live frog code 100 Peco points fresh out of the box - fitting them without alteration and just taking a little care when painting and ballasting the track.  I have had no problems with operation using DCC sound fitted locos!

 

Code 75 & 100 have a significant difference.

100 have a tab on the point blade which helps connectivity to the stock rail.

75 do not have this (presumably for aesthetic reasons) so they rely only on the connection between the blade & stock rails themselves. This makes them less reliable & increases the need to switch the frog another way.

[Miss Prism]

Pete the Elaner - that's all fair comment, but I do not come from the leaving lights on and engines idling school. There is a balance of advantage and disadvantage in isolating & re-feeding.

[Psiborg]

Do you switch the live frogs? or are you relying on blade contact to do the switching?  If you do, what switch do you use,

 

Thanks

I am just relying on the blade for power to the frog.

 

Cheers

Simon

[The Bigbee Line]

I am just relying on the blade for power to the frog.

 

Cheers

Simon

The point blade is the switch.  Not for me as I like to have a light action on the points, just enough to hold them over, maybe not enough to keep them switching consistently.  As you say you don't seem to have any problems, well done..  "You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din", Rudyard Kipling..  Take that as praise not sarcasm..

[Pete the Elaner]

I regularly help a friend with his exhibition layout.

His previous layout had code 75 points which all relied on the blade contact. Every 2-3 hours, he had to freshen up every blade with a piece of wet & dry, which was a process he considered to be quite normal.

Having a point fail completely to make contact then having to fit a motor/switch from underneath before the show opened on a Sunday was a memorable experience for the wrong reasons.

 

All frogs are switched on his current layout. We have suffered no failures & regular maintenance is now reduced to running a track rubber over all rails at the beginning of the day.

[298]

"You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din", Rudyard Kipling.. Take that as praise not sarcasm..

 

I regularly help a friend with his exhibition layout.

His previous layout had code 75 points which all relied on the blade contact. Every 2-3 hours, he had to freshen up every blade with a piece of wet & dry, which was a process he considered to be quite normal.

Some people quite like that method, and consider the extra hours spent to be therapeutic. They even have specialist shows where you can see such layouts in operation and a Society to share tips on cleaning methods.

 

I appied to join once, but was refused because I modelled Electric trains instead of Steam or Diesel, and they couldn't have "One of those Nutters" as a member....

Edited August 15, 2017 by 298