Layout Help Please

[RJS1977]

I've started sketching something up - I'll see if I can finish it over the weekend and then I'll post it here.

 

Essentially though if you can get a 180 degree bend on the widest part of the board, you can put the fiddle yard behind the station and it'll give you twice the length of run.

[Ed Winterbury]

Then how do I access the back?

Thanks for the help anyway!

[Ed Winterbury]

Any luck RJS?

Meanwhile, I would like to ask if Johnster, Chimer, Pete, Siberian, Harlequin or RJS have any other suggestions?

[RJS1977]

Still working on it - having been busy with the C&WR 1940s weekend (and having to stay on an hour late this afternoon owing to running an extra service for the benefit of a family who had missed the last train home), I haven't had a lot of time to look into it.

 

However there are two ways round the uncoupling issue in a rear fiddle yard:

 

1) Standing's Mark 1 Patent Uncoupler*: Glue a rectangle of card to a length of dowel, and insert it in a hole through the baseboard between the rails. Loco arrives, stops with its rear coupling over the uncoupler, uncoupler can be pushed up from underneath the baseboard, so the scenery hiding the fiddle yard isn't in the way. To get the loco to the other end of the train, run it forwards onto a Peco loco lift, pick it up, turn it if necessary and put it back on the track at the other end of the siding. For a beginner, this is the simplest option.

 

(* Mark 2 uses a brass rod instead of the dowel and has a servo pushing it up - install the Mark 1 version for now and you can upgrade to Mark 2 later).

 

2) Denny style fiddle yard. This is effectively a removable U-shaped tray with sidings on it, carrying handles (blue) and removable end stops (green) which slot into the sides of the tray (red):

 

The tray has a trailing cable on each end, either of which can be plugged into a socket on the main layout. So the whole tray can be unplugged, end stops inserted, picked up, reversed (or swapped for another), put back down, plugged back in and end stops removed. If the tray is just sat on top of the baseboard surface, the track on the tray won't align vertically with the track on the layout. Three ways round this:

a) If the base of the fiddle yard is thin enough (bearing in mind the need to prevent distortion/warping), the approach tracks can be packed up slightly, giving a slight gradient on the 'main line'.

b) Alternatively all the track can be packed up to that level, which keeps the main line level but obviously requires more packing, though this could be as simple as covering the baseboard top with cardboard from old boxes, depending on the thickness of the material used for the base of the 'tray'.

c) Only put a top on the front half of the baseboard framing, and use the remaining material as the base of the tray.

 

More complicated than option (1), but with the advantage that if you had suitable shelving either under the baseboard or on the other side of the Juliet window, you could eventually build several such trays to store more trains and with your eclectic rolling stock, you could have different trays for different regions/eras/countries, changing road vehicles etc on the layout to match the stock being run.

[Ed Winterbury]

If I understand correctly, a Denny fiddle yard is a cassette?

[RJS1977]

It's a cassette with several parallel roads on it, capable of storing complete trains.

[Ed Winterbury]

Hi RJS, whilst I wait for your 'professionally drawn' diagram, I did my own on TRAX. Can I please have some help to improve it?

[Ed Winterbury]

Even with this plan, I can't fit in a train longer than 3 coaches including the loco.

[Ed Winterbury]

Actually, 2 coaches and a loco.

[imt]

To be blunt - what is it?  Why are there 2 sets of tiddly sidings at the top?  Do you need the crossover at the bottom?  Why the kickback? This is using points and rail without thinking "why"?

 

The point several people are making is that you could have station one end and fiddle yard the other on a 1' or 18" plank.  There are lots of designs for such a thing.  Look at the Minories threads, three carriage trains in 10ft should be achievable..  RJS's post is about using one form of fiddle yard which you could put at one end of the plank or another with the station at the other end.

 

As I tried to point out - if you have 4ft width you can pull forward an 18"/2ft plank and have room to operate it from behind, that way you can have a station to the left, some sidings at the front to the right and a fiddle yard behind them.  Try looking at the Bradfield Gloucester Square layout for the idea (search on this site).

 

And if you want a roundy roundy there are plenty of ideas and you could do worse than look at thread about an 8' by 4' family layout.

Edited October 10, 2017 by imt

[Ed Winterbury]

Bradfield could work, can someone give me a plan?

[ejstubbs]

If you mean this one: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/28198-bradfield-gloucester-square-br-1962-ish/ then you need to be aware that that layout was constructed using hand-built track.  You can basically forget replicating that using ready-to-run track.  Just look at the single slip/scissors/double slips combination in the station throat:

 

 

If you try to create the same combination of route options using rtr track it'll end up a lot longer than the 15ft that TheLaird used for his layout.

 

I'd suggest that Minories, or something close to it, is still a better bet if that's the sort of thing you fancy ie a compact urban terminus with a fair amount of operational flexibility and interest.  I'd also suggest that going from a single platform with a run-round (ie your Cardiff Clarence Road idea) to three platforms is quite a jump, and might indicate that you still aren't clear in your own mind what you really want.  No worries, though: that just gives you more opportunity to do more research!

 

How much length do you actually have to work with?  As stated earlier in this thread, the original Minories occupies about 12ft by 1ft in OO.  There's a plan of Minories using Streamline track in this post on the 00 Minories track plan wanted thread.  It only shows the station as far as the scenic break, but that only occupies 7ft so if you had 12ft that's a fair amount of room left for a fiddle yard (especially if you use cassettes, or a Denny-style fiddle yard, rather than pointwork).  (Note that the rather awkward "wiggle" around the hinge at the bottom edge of that plan can be designed out if you are building a fixed layout ie you don't need it to fold.)

Edited October 11, 2017 by ejstubbs

[ejstubbs]

To be blunt - what is it?  Why are there 2 sets of tiddly sidings at the top?  Do you need the crossover at the bottom?  Why the kickback? This is using points and rail without thinking "why"?

 

I think the crossover is a hangover from the prototype Clarence Road, which had a double track approach (see earlier discussion on this thread on the subject eg my post #251).  The crossover was needed so that arriving trains could access the single platform on the up side.  With a single track approach it makes no sense still having it there.  You do need a crossover at the buffers end for running round, though.  All a bit odd, really - especially with more points in the rather bizarre fiddle yard than on the scenic area!

 

Look at the Minories threads, three carriage trains in 10ft should be achievable.

 

I think that would be a bit of a challenge TBH: if the "classic" Minories as I referenced above is 7ft long that only leaves 3ft for the fiddle yard.  Three 57ft coaches and a 2-6-4T will just fit in 3ft.  Roughly 6" more could be won back for the fiddle yard by using only short radius points and putting the buffers hard against the end of the baseboard, but 3ft 6in still isn't really a lot.  There would be no room for pointwork in the fiddle yard so cassettes/loco lifts etc would be pretty much obligatory.

 

Mind you, if Ed is happy to use Setrack (as seems to be the case going by the plans he's drafted in Trax) then that probably shaves a bit more off the station length and could give a bit more back to the fiddle yard.

 

I'd agree that, if Ed has 4ft width to play with then an 8ft x 4ft roundy-roundy with a central operating could be worth considering.  That could be made out of two 4ft x 1ft or 2ft boards, and two 6ft or 4ft x 1ft boards, giving a 2ft wide operating well.  That would have plenty of room for three coach trains.

[Ed Winterbury]

What I meant was that 3-coach trains are probably too short. Bradfield may work.

[Ed Winterbury]

So, I look to Pete, Chimer, Siberian and Johnster for guidance.

[Ed Winterbury]

As well as, I dare say, RJS and Harlequin

[Siberian Snooper]

So, I look to Pete, Chimer, Siberian and Johnster for guidance.

Have you had any experience of track building? If you haven't, but can wield a soldering iron, I would recommend giving it a go. The first few attempts will be rubbish, I can guarantee that, but with perseverance you will become proficient. If you can build your own Switches and Crossings it opens up a whole load of opportunities for Minories style train sets. If you belong to a club, you might well find someone to show you how they do it.

 

If you can already do it, then learn to use Templot, a very, very steep learning curve, but very addictive once you can master the basics. Plenty of help on the Templot forum and can be used on a Mac, with some additional software. Several threads on the forum.

 

I am currently working on a Minories style layout, trying too squeeze the S & C down to a minimum to allow 4+ coach platforms and a 4 coach carriage siding in a maximum 12ft scenic section, plus 4ft fiddle yard.

[Harlequin]

Hi Ed,

 

You still need to give us some more solid information. First and foremost: accurate measurements of the space where the layout is proposed to be constructed and how far into the room it can extend (i.e. width from back wall).

 

Without that info it's not really possible to design a layout because every centimetre makes a difference for small layouts. If you don't have accurate measurements yet then please get them the next time you visit the flat and it would be really helpful if you could take some photos and post them.

 

There are more questions we need answered but getting accurate measurements is the top priority and there's no point doing anything else until we have them.

 

I have one other question, though: how did you come by your eclectic collection of locos and rolling stock? Is it really essential to run it all on the proposed layout? Since space is seemingly so limited it might be better limit yourself just to the items that can be used to make limited length trains (and that fit into a more focused era).

[Ed Winterbury]

Well, there isn't the need to run all the stock on the layout (at the same time) but I do need to run a couple, hence why I have decided to go for BR. Johnster has helped me through this process, so I think he knows more than me!

P.S. Where's Johnster gone?

[ejstubbs]

My understanding is that Johnster is fully committed elsewhere for the foreseeable future.

 

In an idle half hour yesterday evening I knocked up this version of Minories in Hornby Setrack using AnyRail on my Mac:

 

 

The grid lines are on 12" spacings, so this version is 6ft 6in by 1ft 6in.  The longest platform will take three coaches plus a loco, the other platform roads rather less (they could be extended to end in line with the longest platform by the judicious use of cut track).  If there was more length available then the platform roads can easily be extended.  There's no fiddle yard detail: again, space constraints are likely to dictate what can be done there.

 

Can I suggest this Peco booklet as a basic starting point for layout design?  For only £1.37, it seems daft not to have it to hand...

[Ed Winterbury]

Thank you, ejstubbs.

I'll modify the plan by extending the top and making the bottom platform a yard, maybe.

I don't know how to solder.

[imt]

Thank you, ejstubbs.

I'll modify the plan by extending the top and making the bottom platform a yard, maybe.

I don't know how to solder.

 

I am not sure what you mean by extending the top, if you mean the top stub line then think twice.  Minories is a very special design for a busy passenger station, the stub is a loco standing area so train pulls in loco comes from stub pulls out train again, loco at head of platform goes to stub.  Repeat with variations.

 

This is a dual line station i.e. an in and an out line.  The stub is only attached to one of these lines - so is little use as a platform.  The lower platform is needed for a busy passenger station - but could easily be used for a head shunt for (say) a parcels depot or similar.  There are whole threads on Minories and how to expand it.  The main thing is that unless you want to use Hornby/Peco Setrack then using Peco Streamline can be just as efficient.

 

If this interests you look at: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60091-00-minories-track-plan-wanted/

 

This is a classsic layout and there are plenty of other threads about it too.

Edited October 12, 2017 by imt

[RJS1977]

Thank you, ejstubbs.

I'll modify the plan by extending the top and making the bottom platform a yard, maybe.

I don't know how to solder.

 

Peco now sell rail joiners with wires attached (for a price), though you still need to be able to solder the other ends of the wires....

 

You may find this book of use: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Soldering-BP-R-Brewster/dp/0859343243/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1507836718&sr=8-2&keywords=the+art+of+soldering

[ejstubbs]

Peco now sell rail joiners with wires attached (for a price), though you still need to be able to solder the other ends of the wires....

 

 

Nah, that's what choc blocks are for!

Edited October 12, 2017 by ejstubbs

[imt]

Peco now sell rail joiners with wires attached (for a price), though you still need to be able to solder the other ends of the wires....

 

.........

 

Absolutely agree with that.  My layout wired completely using them.  Much easier than trying to solder to nickel silver rails without melting the plastic sleepers.  I have had no trouble with them.  I use DCC but DC would be little different.  Underneath the board there are connectors (3 amp choc blocks) through which the main feed is threaded and to which the droppers easily attach.  Photo below will give some idea of what I mean.  More/better explanation if you want it.

Edited October 12, 2017 by imt