Layout Design in Illustration software

[Harlequin]

Beautiful. Thought so, but just making sure.

 

Thanks.

[Harlequin]

Hi Steve,

 

Here you go. Let me know what you think - there are bound to be mistakes and I wasn't sure what Disc 6 is intended to do.

 

 

Edit: I've already spotted a few mistakes this morning. Ho hum!

Edited January 23, 2018 by Harlequin

[sigtech]

Good day Phil, just returned from the weekly shopping trip.

Must say that looks brilliant!

Disc 6 is for the route: shunt inner home (down main) to parcels dock. That I know as correct, some of the other signalling is more questionable. Maybe we could do with some help from The Stationmaster (Mike).

 

Number 1 signal is actually the Outer Home- which I now know is not really required. But as it is there I will probably leave it. It might come in useful if I suffer another signal failure, in which case number 1 lever will then become spare (more white paint) and it would become the lever for the  (previously worked) distant, - now fixed and positioned the other side of the tunnel.

 

Disc 22 has caused me much dithering (next station along from Much Fiddling...) as  number 11  points in advance of it are worked from the box, -  I assumed they would  need protection, due to the likelihood of an engine shunting from the creamery or standing in the headshunt behind the box running over them if left reversed .

 

Although a similar argument could be made for a disc on the left of signal 21, for the route: shunt loop to headshunt. (however being close to the signalbox and easy to sight maybe a green flag out the window from signalman  for that move would be just as easy....)

 

Another option could be to use a yellow disc to replace number 21, allowing it to be passed for shunting in the ON position. However in this situation I believe that the loop doll 5 would also have to change to a disc signal...

 

Disc 23 confuses me,-  in this situation  with the points 24 worked, does/can the disc read both ways to the main loco-release when cleared or to the goods shed?  -  this is one  Mike ( Stationmaster ) may be able to answer.

 

Well Phil - I bet you're now wishing you hadn't started all this, I do however appreciate your efforts.

Regards,

(SIGTECH)

Steve.

 

 

[Harlequin]

Hi Steve,

 

I'm glad you like it!

 

Yes, I think The StationMaster would have to answer some of your questions. I'll leave you to rub a signal lamp with an oily rag and summon him forth ;-) Shazam!

 

My suggestions are:

• Signal number 5, Goods Home, would be a smaller armed siding signal, possibly centre-pivoted.
• Signal number 21, Goods Starter, would be a smaller "ringed arm" signal.

 

What's the name of the tunnel?

[sigtech]

 

Hi Phil - number 5 signal arm is smaller than number 2 just hard to see it.(both it and number 4 were originally fishtailed distants. - quick bit of work with a pair of sidecutters and a repaint changed that...)

 

Regarding the ringed arm on signal 21 - not sure if that is correct for my period - another one for Mike (the S.M....)

Edited January 23, 2018 by sigtech

[sigtech]

Hi Phil,

 

As far as the tunnel name goes - have no idea, will have to think about that one and get back to you.

 

Have just spotted a couple of  errors on that design -. 16  disc reads: shunt from parcels dock to up main. 17 disc reads: shunt from parcels dock to loco.

I'm sure you've already spotted these.

Regards

(SIGTECH)

Steve.

[Harlequin]

Hi Steve,

 

About discs 16 (top, reading for line on left) and 17 (bottom, reading for line on right):

The Bay to Dock crossover is normally in the "straight through" position. I think that would be the normal state for crossovers and that's how I've drawn it. So, will those two discs show clear when the crossover is in it's normal position (i.e. most of the time) and "danger" when it is set to crossover? If so, I hadn't twigged that... Or have I got them the wrong way round? I'm getting more confused the more I think about this!

 

(I think it is standard for the topmost disc to read for the leftmost line.)

 

Edit: I think I know where I'm going wrong: I should be thinking about routes, not just the state of the next points.

 

I'll make sure I use the term "Parcels dock" everywhere.

 

You're probably right about signals for your era. So #4 and #5 are small arms and is #21 also a small arm?

Edited January 24, 2018 by Harlequin

[sigtech]

Hello again Phil - just got back from buying a replacement  mouse (for the computer...)

Much faster now!

Sorry not sure about 21 signal - it is a Dapol signal so has a full sized arm, this looks like another one for Mike to adjudicate on along with the ringed arm suggestion - he has lots we need his opinion on, it should keep him busy!....

You're right about stacked discs - normal convention is top one reads to most left hand divergence, so 16 is cleared when route set from parcels dock onto mainline as far as the advanced starter I think. These two discs only have 1 route from each of them . So 17 is cleared when route is from parcels dock to loco depot ( shed or turntable )- the points ahead are worked by hand - as are the points to the private siding ( creamery ) from the headshunt, also the points into the goods yard ( 2 sets ).

For 12 disc it is simply: shunt loco depot to parcels dock.

I'm not certain ,but was under the impression that for a fpl the lever plate lead would say something like 7 'FPL for 8 points. unlocked/locked'.  I know that FPL levers normally (but not always) stand reversed in the lever frame when the points are locked in position. Then the lever lead for the actual points would be something like 8 'points (normal) platform line./ (reverse) bay platform'. or possibly, (normal) platform1/ (reverse) platform 2.'.

 

For the tunnel I have come up with the very original name of 'Sproston tunnel'... - it's not meant to be a very long one and I was wondering if a better name for the next station along the line would be: 'Much Dithering'?

 

There is a GWR/WR lever lead naming term for certain ground discs, which uses the phrases "Disc at #"  or  "Disc for #" but I cannot remember what they are used for - The Stationmaster will know...

Well that's probably enough to be going on with for now -  are you regretting doing all this yet?

Regards,

(SIGTECH)

Steve.

Edited January 24, 2018 by sigtech

[Harlequin]

Hi Steve,

 

No problem! I'm enjoying learning the technicalities and I'm keen to get the drawing reasonably correct.

 

Ah yes, and I can see now another way that I misunderstood those two discs... 

 

My understanding of FPL levers is that it was most common for the lever to be "out" (pulled) to unlock. The other way around also happened but was less common.

 

Lever names: I'm putting together info from various web sites and making educated guesses but if there's a definitive GWR or BR(WR) document out there I'll follow it.

 

I'll make some changes and post a new drawing later.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Harlequin

[sigtech]

Thanks Phil,-  afraid we'll have to agree to disagee regarding  FPL levers and the way they stand in the frame when the points are locked  for the moment, I've asked the Stationmaster. (Mike) to join our little discussion - he will I'm sure soon put us straight.

Reading through all this I suddenly realized that I had previously forgotten that  it is perfectly possible for a ground signal to read two ways - when it has a set of points in advance!!  Kept thinking in terms of 1 disc = 1 route . Spent some time last night trying to visualize how disc 23 would be operated, I assume it would be cleared  for either of the two possible routes depending on the lie of the points. i.e ,24 points reversed: shunt,loop to platform line.  24 points normal: shunt, loop to goods shed.

And for 25 disc with 24 points normal: shunt, up main to 19 signal (platform 1 starter).or with 24 points reverse: shunt, loco-release to 21 signal ( loop starter ). Have never really bothered before to work out the correct description plates /(lever lead) for them.

Anyway, I'm sure Mike will have this all sorted out PDQ!!

 

I will leave you alone to work now.

 

Steve.

(SIGTECH).

Edited January 24, 2018 by sigtech

[Harlequin]

Here's the latest update:

 

Where things are still unsure I've left them alone (e.g. FPL lever sense) but I will change them if Mike advises or if you just prefer them to work differently in your model.

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Harlequin

[ianmd]

I've been lurking for a long time, but now I feel I have to make a comment.

Why why why is your signaller banished to the next county? Shouldn't it be at the approach end of the platform? Or even opposite the platform over the loop near No. 21 signal (ringed?) so that he can see all the goings on? Also to reduce 'pull' on lever 25, if I was that signaller, I would be trying to have 25 points and associated discs locally operated by a ground frame if the cabin is to stay where it you have it drawn. 

Parcels dock crossover (15) ground frame only, released by bolt lock.

Signal No. 18 should be the Starter, all other "Starters" (19, 20 & 21) are plain "Home signals".

​FPL 7 & FPL 10 could be worked from one lever, if near enough.

​Sorry for being so picky but I have just lowered your signaller's grade and saved you lots of money in wages!

​Ian

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Phil,-  afraid we'll have to agree to disagee regarding  FPL levers and the way they stand in the frame when the points are locked  for the moment, I've asked the Stationmaster. (Mike) to join our little discussion - he will I'm sure soon put us straight.

Reading through all this I suddenly realized that I had previously forgotten that  it is perfectly possible for a ground signal to read two ways - when it has a set of points in advance!!  Kept thinking in terms of 1 disc = 1 route . Spent some time last night trying to visualize how disc 23 would be operated, I assume it would be cleared  for either of the two possible routes depending on the lie of the points. i.e ,24 points reversed: shunt,loop to platform line.  24 points normal: shunt, loop to goods shed.

And for 25 disc with 24 points normal: shunt, up main to 19 signal (platform 1 starter).or with 24 points reverse: shunt, loco-release to 21 signal ( loop starter ). Have never really bothered before to work out the correct description plates /(lever lead) for them.

Anyway, I'm sure Mike will have this all sorted out PDQ!!

 

I will leave you alone to work now.

 

Steve.

(SIGTECH).

 

I'll start here!!

 

1. The normal situation for FPL levers, especially GWR/WR FPL levers was to stand bolted reverse, in other words the lever was pulled to the reverse position to lock the points.  They could sometimes be found standing bolted normal but I think this was inevitably done for interlocking reasons rather than anything else.

2. Disc 23 is probably superfluous - putting a disc in that position wasn't all that common and it was quite unusual on the GWR (yes, I am aware of Princetown, and Barnstaple Victoria Road is not directly comparable because there were two crossovers).  No doubt this dated from the days when discs normally were only worked if the points they applied to were in reverse and the point lever released the signal lever - and there wouldn't be much call to send an engine the wrong way through a release crossover.  I suspect that if 23 were there in real life it would actually work the opposite way and would lock the release crossover in the normal position anyway.

 

The history of GWR interlocking had a significant impact of the way ground discs, in particular, could be worked as the Double Twist and Stud interlocking systems the GWR devised did not allow any sort of conditional locking which meant basically that ground discs (and indeed any other signal) levers could only be reversed with the points they applied to set in one position, and not in either position.  The GWR finally started using its first version of tappet locking in 1904 although frames with Stud locking were still being built new in the following year if not later.  Also frames with the older types of locking lasted for many years after the introduction of tappet locking and there were still some in regular everyday use on mainlines in the late 1980s (and possibly later?). 

 

3. In some respects with the older types of locking, disc 25 could well have been a white light disc (see below) but I think it unlikely as the expected move from it would have been towards the loop and not back along the platform line so it would therefor only be needed to clear with 24 crossover in reverse.

 

What I refer to as 'white light discs' were a GWR innovation introduced, as far as I can definitely trace, in the early 1890s and they did not show a red light when at danger but showed a 'white' light instead (actually if course the colour of the flame in the lamp - basically they were 'converted' by removing the red glass from the danger position light.  Thus what happened was that it was no longer necessary to pass a red light if the ground disc could not be lowered for a movement in the direction where the points were standing normal BUT a white light signal, ora. succession of them, always read to a red light disc, beyond which a move could not be made.  In virtually every circumstance white light discs and white light backing signals applied to movements in the wrong direction along running lines so their purpose and use was very different from yellow arm & light ground signals adopted by the other railways after the Grouping (and never used by the GWR).

 

4. Referring to the diagram in Post No.61 there is no protection of the crossover from the Parcels dock on the bay platform line - basically signal No.20 is in the wrong place and should be opposite ground discs 16 & 17 (and could even be alongside them if there's no room for it on the platform - not entirely unusual although not really desirable in that sort of location).

 

Signal Naming - No1 (if it's there) will be the Home Signal, signals 2,4, and 5 will be Inner Homes. (i.e. Inner Home, Inner Home Main to Parcels Dock, Inner Home Main to Loop).  Signal No. 19 - as an example - would be Main Platform Starting, thus 20 would be Bay Platform Starting and similar for the loop/goods line.

No.7 - for eample - should be 'FPL for 8' and so on.  Referring to another comment 7 and 10 might possibly be worked by the same lever but such an arrangement is undesirable for safety reasons when there are disconnections and might also havre not been compatible with the way the interlocking was arranged (the GWR at one time had the habit of having an awful lot of interlocking through FPL levers although that was later (by the 1930s) positively discouraged).

 

BTW in their signalbox sketch the black line representing the lever frame should be noticeably apart from the black line representing the front wall of the 'box - not too far from it but enough to show that it's separate.

 

Now going somewhat off the point -

I've been lurking for a long time, but now I feel I have to make a comment.

Why why why is your signaller banished to the next county? Shouldn't it be at the approach end of the platform? Or even opposite the platform over the loop near No. 21 signal (ringed?) so that he can see all the goings on? Also to reduce 'pull' on lever 25, if I was that signaller, I would be trying to have 25 points and associated discs locally operated by a ground frame if the cabin is to stay where it you have it drawn. 

Parcels dock crossover (15) ground frame only, released by bolt lock.

Signal No. 18 should be the Starter, all other "Starters" (19, 20 & 21) are plain "Home signals".

​FPL 7 & FPL 10 could be worked from one lever, if near enough.

​Sorry for being so picky but I have just lowered your signaller's grade and saved you lots of money in wages!

​Ian

 

 

There;s nothing wrong with the position of the signalbox - in fact it is well sited for the exchange of tokens without the Signalman having to cross any running lines or pointwork to collect or deliver them.  Exact siting would of course depend on available space to erect the structure.

24 points (the release crossover) might well be ground frame operated BUT there were numerous example where such crossovers were a lot further from the signalbox and provided they complied with 'the requirements' in respect of distance from the signalbox taht was really all that was needed - and well maintained they would hardly represent a heavy pull for any Signalman who knew how to pull levers.

 

19, 20, and 21 are not 'Home Signals' - in very simple terms although they are in rear of the signalbox they are not the first stop signal a train would reach at the exit end of a block section therefore they are not, within the terms of the Rules and Signalling Regulations, 'Home Signals'.  The only stop signal on the diagram at Post No.61 which can rightly be titled as a ' Home Signal' in GWR/WR applications is Signal No1 (if it happens to be a stop signal; if No1 is not there as a stop signal then 2/4/5 become the Home Signal(s) ).

 

As for removing 3 levers saving any money in terms of Signalman's wages I would be utterly amazed if it made any difference to the Grade of the signalbox as all it will do is knock 2 points off the Equipment Value!  Signalbox grading was calculated on the basis of Equipment Value - which can be counted off the diagram plus block working instrument - measured against Traffic Value [basically movements made adjusted by hours of opening] on a sliding scale and a branch terminus was very unlikely to get out of the lowest grade unless it had a train service on a par with Liverpool Street.

[The Stationmaster]

Signal 21 - 

 

1. It will be a short (3ft) arm.

 

2. The use of rings on Goods/Siding signals was discontinued in new work and renewals from January 1950.  Generally existing signals weren't altered unless the arm required renewal thus rings on arms could survive for years after they had been officially discontinued and many lasted until their replacement was a colour light signal or the line(so they appllied to were removed in the mid to late 1960s.  Some possibly survived even longer.

[Harlequin]

Hi Mike,

 

I'm just the office draughtsman on this diagram and Steve (SIGTECH) has the final say but just to clarify a couple of things:

 

I think you're saying that the FPL levers were usually pulled to lock the points - to use completely non-technical language. Correct?

 

Regarding signal 20 and discs 16 and 17: The current idea is that disc 16 reads from the parcel dock through the crossover to the main line connection at point 8. And disc 17 reads from the parcel dock to the loco shed. A train in the bay platform may be standing in advance of discs 16 and 17 so should there be a disc/signal to show that the crossover is in the "normal" position for exit from the Bay platform? Or is signal 20 enough to do that job? If none of the above sounds right to you, what would you recommend?

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to give us your advice!

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Mike,

 

I'm just the office draughtsman on this diagram and Steve (SIGTECH) has the final say but just to clarify a couple of things:

 

I think you're saying that the FPL levers were usually pulled to lock the points - to use completely non-technical language. Correct?

 

Regarding signal 20 and discs 16 and 17: The current idea is that disc 16 reads from the parcel dock through the crossover to the main line connection at point 8. And disc 17 reads from the parcel dock to the loco shed. A train in the bay platform may be standing in advance of discs 16 and 17 so should there be a disc/signal to show that the crossover is in the "normal" position for exit from the Bay platform? Or is signal 20 enough to do that job? If none of the above sounds right to you, what would you recommend?

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to give us your advice!

 

Yes Phil - FPL levers were pulled to lock the points so stood in reverse with the point locked, a couple of examples; in the first one three FPLs are bolted, in the second one both the FPLs worked by the frame are bolted -

N.B. click on the pictures to enlarge them and you can read the leads on some of the levers.

 

 

 

Disc 16 will read towards the Advanced Starting Signal, or as far as the line maybe be clear towards that signal while 17 reads towards the engine shed siding.  Signal 20 applies to the Bay Line but in order to protect the crossover has to be in rear of it which would put it more or less level with discs 16/17 and the toe of the point in the parcels dock  it could even be placed over on that side of the parcels dock line if there's no room for it on the platform.  if it is necessary for train in the Bay Line to stand in advance of signal 20 there should be a second signal where 20 is currently drawn (similar in some respects  to the arrangement at Kingswear).

[Harlequin]

Thanks Mike! The photos will be a big help!

 

Edit: Your advice about signal 20 has just clicked. (I was not thinking about the real track properly. Lesson learned.) Would a third disc on the same post as 16 and 17 be acceptable instead of moving signal 20 back?

 

When I was a little boy living in Hermitage our neighbour, "Uncle Jim", was a signalman and my Dad and I visited him in his box one day.

 

Unfortunately I can't remember much about the experience except that I was allowed to pull a small lever at the far end of the frame, which I think was to (un)lock the crossing gates, and I couldn't do it! I was only about 7.

 

Then later on, when we had moved and had a nice little layout, Uncle Jim came and told us, at length, where all our signals should go. I can't remember much about that either...

 

I really should have paid more attention!

Edited January 26, 2018 by Harlequin

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Mike! The photos will be a big help!

 

Edit: Your advice about signal 20 has just clicked. (I was not thinking about the real track properly. Lesson learned.) Would a third disc on the same post as 16 and 17 be acceptable instead of moving signal 20 back?

 

When I was a little boy living in Hermitage our neighbour, "Uncle Jim", was a signalman and my Dad and I visited him in his box one day.

 

Unfortunately I can't remember much about the experience except that I was allowed to pull a small lever at the far end of the frame, which I think was to (un)lock the crossing gates, and I couldn't do it! I was only about 7.

 

Then later on, when we had moved and had a nice little layout, Uncle Jim came and told us, at length, where all our signals should go. I can't remember much about that either...

 

I really should have paid more attention!

 

No third disc - the signal is nothing to do with the discs as it applies to a different line.

 

Many years ago - well a bit over 50 tears to be slightly more exact I had a visit around various 'boxes in the Reading area just before they were closed under the resignalling scheme and I too a friend with me.  When we were at Reading West Jcn we got the typical 'crafty offer' of being asked if we'd like to pull a lever and my friend duly leapt forward and was directed to a black lever which happened to have an ordinary point end and half single slip hung on it and a rodding run which we had passed on route to the 'box which not only had a gentle curve but was also clearly some time past its best.  He was quite a hefty lad and duly laid into the lever but obviously didn't know how to pull one and hadn't really sussed what it worked - distinct failure.  The Signalmen then asked if I'd like ago at it so it would have been rude to refuse - it was distinctly heavy to say the least but as I got it right across the frame into reverse there came the words 'you've done that before haven't you?'  - and indeed I had, I had the advantage of knowing how to pull a lever whereas my friend (now well known in the railway modelling world as it happens) hadn't.

 

And - although we're in the wrong thread - in 1973 one of my 'boxes in South Wales acquired a new facing crossover with the FPLs on both ends worked by the same lever, it took the S &T several days to get it working what they called 'properly' but it was incredibly heavy considering what was on it and the signalmen moaned like heck about it and every time I visited the 'box, which was almost daily, I was asked to try it and see what I thought - and it was awful, worst lever I've ever pulled.  It took the S&T the best part of two weeks to get it satisfactory to the Signalmen and it still wasn't wonderful.  Hence one reason why i don't like them.

[Harlequin]

Hi Steve,

 

Given what Mike has said above, please let me know what changes you'd like to make to the diagram. Obviously it partly depends on whether you want to change your model or have the diagram reflect the model as-is.

 

Regarding signal 20 being pushed back alongside discs 16 & 17: Maybe you could suspend a short arm or a centre-pivoted arm under the bay platform canopy.

 

In the meantime, here's a new, much more expressive layout for the levers list:

[Click to enlarge]

Edited January 26, 2018 by Harlequin

[sigtech]

Hello Phil, and also thanks to Mike, for everything so far.

Sorry about the delay in replying to all this,- First I have a some additional questions to ask of Mike, if I may, that have risen out of this very detailed and thought provoking discussion.

 

1. If the option was taken to provide a second semaphore signal - by the side of the parcels dock line and parallel to 16/17 disc to protect the crossover how would it be numbered ?  and is it/ does it  then become a repeater for 20, or a separate functioning signal (starter) for the bay and what would it be called,? - if it was provided what would 20 then become. ? 

 

2. Do you know when the WR started painting  all its round post semaphores silver? - in other words should all my signal posts really be white? (I suspect the answer is 'yes'). Should the line direction be stated on the signal lever leads plates ( UP/DOWN STARTER )?

 

3. Would it be likely that the inner home would be just two dolls, 2 and 4, with 5 being replaced by a ground mounted disc at the base of the bracket on the right hand side. and then 21 signal also becoming a ground disc, reading two ways: - shunt, loop line to up advance starting signal with 11 points reversed, and :shunt, loop line to  headshunt/creamery with them normal.?

 

4. Would 22 signal (shunt, from headshunt/creamery  to loop line be probable,- given that the move would be made over worked points 11, from behind the signalbox and that it is where an engine is often likely to be standing?  

 

The reason for these questions?  Dapol are supposed to be bringing out their GWR bracket signal soon, ( with only 2 dolls ).  I was hoping to replace the 3 doll BR (Hornby) UQ type in use now, with one as a more accurate representation..

 

Phil - thanks - you are being very patient , and that diagram is superb!  as you can see I am trying to cover all of the bases at once!. The physical track layout is now correct and  the signalling - as it is now on your latest diagram, so probably just the lever lead to alter based on the Stationmasters comments and the photos. ( Although there maybe an additional signal - will see what his reply to this post is.  Re  number 20  It would not be easy to suspend it beneath the canopy, as this has to be removable to allow access to the platform line if there are any 'problems'. Most things are not 'fixed down' yet this has saved me much grief ! ) I think the Goods loop would be referred to as 'Loop Line' and for the FPL's  just 7,10 or 14,  The 'a' or 'b' suffix  is not used .

 

Would it be possible later in time to produce a second copy of this layout with the same track layout - but with some amendments to the signalling  ( as I mentioned above to Mike ) to allow for the fact that I may need to alter a few signals ( when they become available from Dapol ).  I realize this must be 'pushing it' a bit , but after all your hard work to prepare this - and I must admit the speed of your creation has caught me by surprise.. I expected to be waiting for several weeks before it got anywhere near this stage!  So it would be a shame if the diagram was not correct due to any recent  'signal renewals'.What are your thought on this?

Thanks for all your effort so far, it is much appreciated.

 

Regards

Steve.

Edited January 30, 2018 by sigtech

[The Stationmaster]

Hello Phil, and also thanks to Mike, for everything so far.

Sorry about the delay in replying to all this,- First I have a some additional questions to ask of Mike, if I may, that have risen out of this very detailed and thought provoking discussion.

 

1. If the option was taken to provide a second semaphore signal - by the side of the parcels dock line and parallel to 16/17 disc to protect the crossover how would it be numbered ?  and is it/ does it  then become a repeater for 20, or a separate functioning signal (starter) for the bay and what would it be called,? - if it was provided what would 20 then become. ? 

 

2. Do you know when the WR started painting  all its round post semaphores silver? - in other words should all my signal posts really be white? (I suspect the answer is 'yes'). Should the line direction be stated on the signal lever leads plates ( UP/DOWN STARTER )?

 

3. Would it be likely that the inner home would be just two dolls, 2 and 4, with 5 being replaced by a ground mounted disc at the base of the bracket on the right hand side. and then 21 signal also becoming a ground disc, reading two ways: - shunt, loop line to up advance starting signal with 11 points reversed, and :shunt, loop line to  headshunt/creamery with them normal.?

 

4. Would 22 signal (shunt, from headshunt/creamery  to loop line be probable,- given that the move would be made over worked points 11, from behind the signalbox and that it is where an engine is often likely to be standing?  

 

The reason for these questions?  Dapol are supposed to be bringing out their GWR bracket signal soon, ( with only 2 dolls ).  I was hoping to replace the 3 doll BR (Hornby) UQ type in use now, with one as a more accurate representation..

 

Phil - thanks - you are being very patient , and that diagram is superb!  as you can see I am trying to cover all of the bases at once!. The physical track layout is now correct and  the signalling - as it is now on your latest diagram, so probably just the lever lead to alter based on the Stationmasters comments and the photos. ( Although there maybe an additional signal - will see what his reply to this post is.  Re  number 20  It would not be easy to suspend it beneath the canopy, as this has to be removable to allow access to the platform line if there are any 'problems'. Most things are not 'fixed down' yet this has saved me much grief ! ) I think the Goods loop would be referred to as 'Loop Line' and for the FPL's  just 7,10 or 14,  The 'a' or 'b' suffix  is not used .

 

Would it be possible later in time to produce a second copy of this layout with the same track layout - but with some amendments to the signalling  ( as I mentioned above to Mike ) to allow for the fact that I may need to alter a few signals ( when they become available from Dapol ).  I realize this must be 'pushing it' a bit , but after all your hard work to prepare this - and I must admit the speed of your creation has caught me by surprise.. I expected to be waiting for several weeks before it got anywhere near this stage!  So it would be a shame if the diagram was not correct due to any recent  'signal renewals'.What are your thought on this?

Thanks for all your effort so far, it is much appreciated.

 

Regards

Steve.

 

A lot of the answers depend on the date at which the layout is set and the date at which the signals were erected or the locking last renewed or altered.  Some lasted for many years with like-for-like renewals and occasionally not even updated to the correct standard at time of renewal and in a few cases a;amzing;ly obsolescent signals reappeared in 1950s renewals.

 

To your questions -

 

1.  It would be separately numbered and be the Bay Platform Starting Signal, The additional signal (in the same place as the existing No.20 would most likely be the 'Bay Platform Starting To Main' (using the Kngswear situation as an example to follow).

 

2. Early to mid 1950s - definitely being done by 1956 and probably at least 3 years before that (and maybe even earlier but no precise dating information to hand as yet).

 

3. Entirely date dependent - 21 would only be renewed if it needed to be renewed and look on the previously linked thread for signals with rings on the arms surviving well into the 1960s.  If it was replaced I think the most likely arrangement would be a yellow arm ground disc and 22 would be recovered (I doubt if 21 ever read towards the creamery hence being replaced, post 1950, by a yellow arm disc if it needed renewal). (see question 4 below)

 

As far as 5 is concerned the answer is 'possibly' but then I knew of one signal which was renewed in tubular steel form in the 1950s and the arm equivalent to No. 5 was retained and a new 3 doll signal was erected - no doubt depended entirely on what teh local S&T Inspector ordered from Reading.

 

4. I think 22 being there in the first place is unlikely unless there was a very good reason for it (which I doubt)

Edited January 30, 2018 by The Stationmaster

[Harlequin]

Hello Phil, and also thanks to Mike, for everything so far.

 

Would it be possible later in time to produce a second copy of this layout with the same track layout - but with some amendments to the signalling  ( as I mentioned above to Mike ) to allow for the fact that I may need to alter a few signals ( when they become available from Dapol ).

Thanks for all your effort so far, it is much appreciated.

 

Regards

Steve.

Yes, no problem. It's pretty easy to change and I enjoy doing these drawings.

 

I'll post up a revised Signal Diagram and Levers list referring to the signals as they are currently arranged. When you're happy with that I'll send you a PDF.

 

And I'll do a further revised set of drawings whenever you've settled on a revised signalling design.

 

Phil

Edited January 30, 2018 by Harlequin

[Harlequin]

Here are the updated drawings.

[Click to enlarge]

 

I think I've captured all the relevant changes but if not, just let me know, as and when.

 

[sigtech]

Hello again Phil,

 

I've decided to go with the present signalling plan, at least until the new Dapol bracket signals become available, then I will investigate changing it. I've drawn a revised signalling diagram for it with some of the alterations suggested by Mike, will post it on here later for you ( and Mike hopefully) to see.

 

The only real changes required on the present version seem to relate to:  1.the lever description plates,( see below) the rest are minor  2. Maybe 22 disc signal needs to be moved back a little from the points to make it easier to see  3. Can you add a label for the SHUNT SPUR (the siding nearest the rear of the signalbox )  4.  The creamery siding, being  private, needs to be gated. 5. Can you add the word 'Main' to the main platform - again that will make it match with the appropriate lever leads.  6. Could you change the wording to LOCO DEPOT for the siding that runs between 12 disc and the hand points - as that will then correspond with the lever leads on the discs that read to/from it. 7. The next station's name will now be  'Much Dithering'  - I think it sounds more convincing....Thanks for doing all this, very pleased, it's certainly coming together now!

 

Lever leads.

Based on the recent information as supplied by The Stationmaster, I have listed how I think they should read. For completeness I have included them all, even though some are not altered.

lever 1. DOWN MAIN HOME.

lever 2. DOWN MAIN INNER HOME TO MAIN PLATFORM.

lever 3. SPARE.

lever 4. DOWN MAIN INNER HOME TO BAY.

lever 5. DOWN MAIN INNER HOME TO LOOP.

lever 6. DISC.  DOWN MAIN INNER HOME TO PARCELS DOCK.

lever 7 .FPL FOR 8.

lever 8. POINTS. MAIN TO BAY.

lever 9. SPARE.

lever 10. FPL FOR 11.

lever 11. POINTS. MAIN TO LOOP.

lever 12. DISC. LOCO DEPOT TO PARCELS DOCK.

lever 13. SPARE.

lever 14. FPL FOR 15.

lever 15  POINTS. BAY/PARCELS DOCK.

lever 16. DISC. PARCELS DOCK TO UP MAIN.

lever 17. DISC.PARCELS DOCK TO LOCO DEPOT.

lever 18. UP MAIN ADVANCE STARTING.

lever 19. MAIN PLATFORM STARTING.

lever 20. BAY PLATFORM STARTING.

lever 21. LOOP  STARTING.

lever 22. DISC. SHUNT SPUR TO LOOP.

lever 23 .DISC. LOOP TO GOODS SHED.

lever 24. POINTS. MAIN PLATFORM TO LOOP.

lever 25. DISC. ENGINE RELEASE TO LOOP.

 

I think that these are correct, - but it would be useful if Mike could cast his eyes over them and advise if any are wrong!

Regards

(SIGTECH)

Steve.

Edited: 1545 to reflect changes suggested by Mike.

Edited February 1, 2018 by sigtech

[Marly51]

Just found your topic, Phil. Bit busy with projects just now, but will experiment with your offerings for Illustrator later. I’ve been using AnyRail 6 up until now for track layout only - not tried using the structure objects and colour, because they looked a bit limited. I’ve used Illustrator since the first version, but am now retired. Still have a standalone version of the first Creative Suite package on my old PC. I enjoy planning layouts, even if some of them don’t come to fruition.

Marlyn