Rail drivers' 28% Pay Rise to end Strike

[polybear]

.....today's headline on the front page of the Metro newspaper

Offered by Southern bosses (and accepted by ASLEF members); the company has also promised a second worker will be on all services unless there are "exceptional circumstances" such as staff calling in sick.  Pay rise to be implemented over 5 years; drivers could end up on nearly 80K incl. overtime. (63K basic, over 4 days)

However, RMT remain in dispute with Southern regarding Guards.

[kintbury jon]

Wow, where do I sign up!

[dhjgreen]

28% over 5 years works out at 5% per year compounded.

[D854_Tiger]

28% over 5 years works out at 5% per year compounded.

         

.................. and second worker always on the train, except in exceptional circumstances, are just the weasel words needed to avoid saying works out as no guards.

 

Then 5% per year is probably around 90% cheaper than employing guards.

 

However, RMT remain in dispute with Southern regarding Guards 

 

   .... over the severance pay?????

 

What I will never understand is why any guard would decline to take an interest in driving, given the obvious higher salary (especially now), their prime advantage in applying and Southern's pressing need for more drivers. 

[royaloak]

Cash always trumps safety

Have you actually seen what they signed up for?

 

They were offered the 28% pay rise last time but turned it down because of what was attached to it, this time around it pretty much guarantees a second, safety trained staff member on every train which is why it was accepted this time, but why let the facts get in the way of an ill informed rant about train drivers pay!

[royaloak]

28% over 5 years works out at 5% per year compounded.

They are still owed the pay rises from October 2016 and 2017 because Southern refuse to talk about it.

[royaloak]

 

.................. and second worker always on the train, except in exceptional circumstances, are just the weasel words needed to avoid saying works out as no guards.

 

Then 5% per year is probably around 90% cheaper than employing guards.

 

However, RMT remain in dispute with Southern regarding Guards 

 

   .... over the severance pay?????

 

What I will never understand is why any guard would decline to take an interest in driving, given the obvious higher salary (especially now), their prime advantage in applying and Southern's pressing need for more drivers. 

 

Why do people assume that everyone who works on the railway wants to be a driver?

[dhjgreen]

They are still owed the pay rises from October 2016 and 2017 because Southern refuse to talk about it.

3.5% compound over 7 years then.

[D854_Tiger]

Have you actually seen what they signed up for?

 

They were offered the 28% pay rise last time but turned it down because of what was attached to it, this time around it pretty much guarantees a second, safety trained staff member on every train which is why it was accepted this time, but why let the facts get in the way of an ill informed rant about train drivers pay!

 

It's usually all about money, in the end, and why not.

 

Those drivers are being asked to take on extra responsibilities and some might think it's just a matter of closing the doors but we've had staff end up in court, before now, and being hung out to dry by their employer (because that's what insurance companies dictate) for getting it wrong.

[D854_Tiger]

Without wishing to sound political.......

 

Well I lean politically more to the right than the left but I wouldn't see it quite like that.

 

Remember when Basil Fawlty asked his chef to put in some unplanned overtime, at the last minute. Basil accused him of being a communist when he asked for more money to which the chef replied. "No Mr Fawlty, that's capitalism."

[D854_Tiger]

Why do people assume that everyone who works on the railway wants to be a driver?

 

I know, point taken, but it is a bit like turning up for football, never wanting to play striker and always wanting to be the goalkeeper, then we all know goalkeepers are half-bonkers. 

[great central]

I know, point taken, but it is a bit like turning up for football, never wanting to play striker and always wanting to be the goalkeeper, then we all know goalkeepers are half-bonkers.

Not everyone is suited to driving yet perfectly at home as a guard

[D854_Tiger]

Not everyone is suited to driving yet perfectly at home as a guard

 

Though not anymore on Southern, which is my point really.

[Giz Puk]

Once again this is all about spin, why can't everyone agree that it doesn't matter who closes the doors!!!

What does matter is that the driver can be trusted to concentrate on driving SAFELY, and that the guard can look after the SAFETY of the passengers.

Lets stop both sides bickering and agree that both positions are equally important and that neither will be interfered with by people who do not understand what they do on a daily basis... yes management and union leaders sat behind your desks in your comfy offices I mean you........... BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY YOU THE PRESS STOP SENSATIONALISING THIS.

The easiest way for the Management and shareholders to justify changes is yes you guessed it MONEY!!!!!

As I mentioned earlier the people who have most to lose are the employees themselves and we the customer.

You only have to look back at the miners strike to see hove people on both sides of the argument lost out...... it was only Scargill, who carried on driving round in his Jag with Mrs scargill in her fur coat whilst some families of miners were living a hand to mouth existence, and the FAT CATS who eventually sold the land,  stocks and shares and still made money who won.

Why is all about greed for more money.....yes if you are expected to have more responsibilities and be accountable for them then you should expect something in return but at this time none of us can afford to be stubborn.

As they say 'Pride comes before a fall'.... lets all hope its not too late for both sides to offer a supporting hand to the other for the benefit of all of us.

enough said I think.

'Diversity...Its what makes us all individuals' and while we may not all agree on everything... we should all be man enough to 'agree to disagree'.

I'm off to stand in the naughty corner now, but I might be able to come back out to play once I say sorry.

 

'SORRY'

 

Yours Aye,

Giz

[Zomboid]

What I couldn't work out is that 80% voted to accept this.

So which 20% voted to reject it? 5% a year for 5 years. I think if you added up the last 5 years for most people you wouldn't get to 5%...

[Giz Puk]

You only have to look at American politics or Brexit to answer this question.

How many people are misled either way..... is it about belief in the promises or the hope for change?

Information is power.....it's how it is used that makes history.

 

Yours Aye,

Giz

[royaloak]

It's usually all about money, in the end, and why not.

 

Those drivers are being asked to take on extra responsibilities and some might think it's just a matter of closing the doors but we've had staff end up in court, before now, and being hung out to dry by their employer (because that's what insurance companies dictate) for getting it wrong.

Including one who did everything right but still ended up in court because the CPS decided it was in the public interest to do so, while, no doubt, at the same time letting drug dealers, speeders and drunk drivers etc walk because of 'lack of evidence' or some such, but when pushed in court (when they unable adjourn it again) couldnt provide any evidence against Martin Zee who had over a year wondering what the hell was going on.

Edited November 9, 2017 by royaloak

[royaloak]

What I couldn't work out is that 80% voted to accept this.

So which 20% voted to reject it? 5% a year for 5 years. I think if you added up the last 5 years for most people you wouldn't get to 5%...

Because it wasnt about the money, if this was a straight pay rise with no changes to conditions then yes thank you very much, but this includes some quite draconian changes (which is why it got rejected last time).

 

Of course some of those who voted would already be working DOO so would have accepted it regardless.

 

If your company offered you a 27% pay rise to take on somebody else's responsibilities (in the process leaving yourself open to prosecution and imprisonment) would you take it?

I am sure you will all forget about that in 5 minutes and it will all be about the money again!

Edited November 9, 2017 by royaloak

[Sandpiper]

.

 

On second thoughts, post removed. This isn't a discussion I want to get involved in.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Sandpiper

[brack]

A vast swathe of public sector workers have suffered significant pay cuts in real terms (my pay has been cut by almost 15% in real terms). My pension (should I live long enough to receive it) will be much less than the terms I signed up to when I began my career. Lots of people have had a raw deal for some time. The fact that some people's financial lives are about to be improved doesn't seem to be too bad to me.

I don't see why I ought to be angry or jealous just because someone else has been offered a deal which looks better than mine. I have enough to meet my needs and look after my family, their employers have decided that they're worth paying that amount to keep, whatever they've agreed is up to them - nobody is getting £100000s here (that's for the big boys at the top).

[Chris M]

Surely we must be on the way to driverless trains on the national network. We already have it in a few places and we are well on the way to autonomous cars so it must be quite easily possible with the technology we have today. To me it would make more sense to keep guards on trains but invest in removing the need for drivers. The more drivers are paid, the greater the incentive to invest in driverless technology.

[njee20]

Here here, driverless all the way, seems a far better implementation of the technology than cars frankly if you’re going to throw billions at it.

 

Then all the drivers can stop worrying about ending up in front of the CPS. Sorted.

[APOLLO]

I agree Brack - It's "The big boys at the top" who REALLY need sorting out wages wise, and in all companies / leadership / government concerns also.

 

Driverless Trains (etc etc) - no thanks, just another way for the above mentioned to award themselves more for cutting the number of employees.

 

Not nice is the future, not for the average guy / gal anyway.

 

Brit15

[royaloak]

I know, point taken, but it is a bit like turning up for football, never wanting to play striker and always wanting to be the goalkeeper, then we all know goalkeepers are half-bonkers. 

My 11 year old likes being the goalkeeper, would you like to discuss that in person?

I dont like people calling my son an idiot just because his opinions are different from yours!

 

Believe it or not, not everyone wants to be the glory boy, some prefer to be the in the background!

Edited November 9, 2017 by royaloak

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Have you actually seen what they signed up for?

 

They were offered the 28% pay rise last time but turned it down because of what was attached to it, this time around it pretty much guarantees a second, safety trained staff member on every train which is why it was accepted this time, but why let the facts get in the way of an ill informed rant about train drivers pay!

My first bold.

 

...but does not absolutely guarantee this. I recall a senior ASLEF official taking about 'cast iron guarantees'...which this is not. Trains do currently run without an OBS (services which previously had a guard) and presumably continue to do so in the future.

 

Ill informed or not, the perception is that we are in the same situation as we were a year ago with the ongoing dispute with the RMT and Southern; but now the ASLEF drivers have had a nice big pay rise. Happy days indeed!

 

In the meantime, the RMT are still striking (today and yesterday, although the effect on Southern services is less than negligible), only now smarting as their members are now mainly On Board Supervisors. And there is no guarantee of a second staff member on the train.

 

The ASLEF strike was hugely disruptive, so would always have been in Southern's interest to sort out. Owing to the lack of impact from the RMT strikes, I suspect Southern are going to pretty much ignore them from now on.