Marshalling of a Goods train

[Ron Solly]

Not sure if this is written down as a real process but I am after some guidance.
 

Let us assume this local branch line railway:_
Terminal station A – through station B to main through Station C  and then back to B & A.

At C, there are lines coming from & going to further stations D, E  , F etc
 

So would station A marshal/block the goods wagons so that all wagons for each station are next to each other and would B also add any pickups into the same blocking format to assist C in sorting out when the train arrives at C for shunting not only at C but for stations D, E  , F etc?

Or would there be no attempt made at all on any blocking of wagons? 
 

The reason for these questions in the model rail scene and having timetables;
having no blocking requirements make operating simpler at Stations A & B but can really make it harder at C    or
Having blocking means more time required at A & B but helps C in shunting

[Phil Bullock]

Two significant factors will be:

 

The timetable - how much time is available for shunting at each location, particularly if shunt moves foul the main line

 

And

 

Goods yard access - which direction is each of the yards shunted in , outwards or return

 

Just a starter!

 

Phil

[Ron Solly]

Phil, time available - I was going to increase it if blocking is a requirement  so that is no problem.

Goods yard access is both ways = local station crew know exactly when a through running or passenger service is due so fouling the mainline is not allowed

enough run-around loops at all stations

[Pteremy]

Ron - not a direct answer to your question but there is good insight/advice relevant to your question in various threads addressing the inclusion of both fitted and unfitted vehicles in a train. If you search 'fitted unfitted' you will find them.

[KeithHC]

A good question and on the lines I am thinking of with my eventual model of Rowfant in Sussex. I have not seen all the WTT for the route East Grinstead to Three Bridges but I think I can work out the possibility of the pick up goods. This would operate EG to TB as the sidings at Grange road could only be served by a goods train working in that direction only. This would block the line during shunting. Also a farm siding located close to EG. Then at Rowfant by using the loop and headshunt goods can be handled in either direction. Logically the pickup would operate EG to TB. The oil trains would operate TB to Rowfant only. The next option is as you say is the position of the various wagons in my mind you would have from EG Loco + GR wagons + Rowfant wagons + TB wagons(plus onward to Norwood). One frieght working I am aware of is a Saturday only EG to TB this is an extension of a Norwood service that drops off and collects Banana wagons at Lingfield.   

Edited November 24, 2017 by KeithHC

[sulzer27jd]

If I am reading this correctly, Station C is the branch junction where a line leads off to a branch terminus at A. If A is a relatively minor location, then the likelihood is that it would be simply served by the branch pick-up goods, probably just once a day, but that, of course, would be determined by what was at A, its size and any industries it served, etc. 

 

 

Depending on the layout at B, the pick-up goods is probably going to either work it in the direction towards A and not on the return leg (in which case the block for B will be conveniently placed for ease of shunting on the outward journey), or it will traverse directly to A, where the wagons for B will be marshalled into the return trip and then work B on the way back to C. They will of course then be conveniently placed for ease of shunting on that leg. For a pick-up goods, the wagons would be arranged for shunting convenience and all be treated as unfitted. Minimising the number movements of animals (and guards in their brake vans) was also part of the pre-planning required for a trip.

 

The rider on all of that is the working of any line would be determined firstly by what work needed doing and so would be adapted to suit local circumstances. For many locations (not just branches) however, it was a case of shunting in one direction only and the wagons would generally be arranged to make that as simple a process as possible. 

 

John

[Ron Solly]

Trains start from A, go to B, set down if needed and pickup for stations C, D, E etc. then goes to C - all wagons set down  letting C sort them out for other trains that use C as a junction station ;  pickup for B  & A   & return to B, set down as required & pick up for A and goes to A when the train is terminated.

[Rivercider]

As Pteremy has pointed out there have been a number of threads dealing with various aspects of marshalling, how it was done varied over time and location.

 

How much marshalling was done by station A, and how much marshalling was done by station C could depend on a number of factors.

Whether there is time, room, and a loco at each location or not. 

 

If station C has room and time, the train could leave station A marshalled in 2 blocks:- 

1) Station B

2) Station C/D/E/F mixed.

Then station C has to sort it all out.

 

If station C has no room, or time, to sort the traffic then the local marshalling instructions will show that station A  might have to fully marshal the train, for example:-

1) Station B

2) Station C local traffic

3) Station D/E up line traffic

4) Station F/G down line traffic 

 

cheers

[sulzer27jd]

Trains start from A, go to B, set down if needed and pickup for stations C, D, E etc. then goes to C - all wagons set down  letting C sort them out for other trains that use C as a junction station ;  pickup for B  & A   & return to B, set down as required & pick up for A and goes to A when the train is terminated.

 

I suspect it will be more likely - for a local branch line - that the train will start at the junction, or main through station than start at the terminus.

 

John

[The Johnster]

Don't forget that most branch pick-ups ran as unfitted class J or K trains (9 in more modern parlance), with instanter couplings in the long position to ease shunting, vacuum brakes isolated out of use, and at a maximum speed of 25mph.  So you can marshal vehicles according to the requirements of the shunting at each individual station without worrying about fitted heads and brake force; hand brakes can be pinned down for any gradients.

 

You may, according to the way your model is laid out or for the purposes of loading or unloading at imagined locations, need to include sliding door vans for places where there is not enough room to open the doors of normal ones, and consider any end loading to flat wagons or vans with end doors that may be required.

 

Fun, isn't it?

[iands]

Don't forget that most branch pick-ups ran as unfitted class J or K trains (9 in more modern parlance), with instanter couplings in the long position to ease shunting, vacuum brakes isolated out of use, and at a maximum speed of 25mph.  So you can marshal vehicles according to the requirements of the shunting at each individual station without worrying about fitted heads and brake force; hand brakes can be pinned down for any gradients.

 

You may, according to the way your model is laid out or for the purposes of loading or unloading at imagined locations, need to include sliding door vans for places where there is not enough room to open the doors of normal ones, and consider any end loading to flat wagons or vans with end doors that may be required.

 

Fun, isn't it?

I understand what you are saying, but a little caution is required when using the term "9 in modern parlance" in today's railway environs. Due to a lack of available head codes (in the 2ann range) the "prefix 9" head code is given over to fill this shortage. Quite a few passenger services now run with "9ann" head codes - the East London Line services being a prime example.

 

Regards, Ian.

[The Stationmaster]

For most local freight trips - especially in the steam era - you can totally ignore the difference between fitted and non-fitted wagons because nobody was going to bother with vacuum pipes and creating vacuum on a slow moving freight trains.

 

Generally local trip would be shunted to form them in station order for detaching but as 'Rivercider' has said a lot depended on space to marshal the train plus there is always the matter of which stations are served in which direction.  Our local branch was 5 miles long and had two intermediate stations handling freight traffic (albeit latterly Coal Class traffic only) so when the trip ran down the branch it shunted one of these stations and it shunted the other on the way back.  

 

But it ran from a marshalling yard which happened to be about 7 miles from the junction and just to add to the fun oit had to reverse at the junction in order to reach the branch, and there was no space at the junction to remarshal the trains.  So it had to leave the originating yard formed in the correct order to serve 4 different places with allowance for reversing enroute plus the two branch intermediates being served in opposite directions.  The key to all this was very simple - the train, like virtually all local freight trips, was formed in such a way as to get the job done as quickly as possible at each station although that meant some remarshalling at the branch terminus to get empties in the right place for the return trip.

 

Best advice - copy the real world and draw yourself a few sketches showing how the traffic would be sited within the train for each of your stations - don't forget that you'll not only be detaching wagons but also picking some up as the train.

 

Incidentally, and somewhat reluctantly, the Class 9 headcode for freight trains was given up back in 1993 as it was needed for International passenger trains in order for their numbering to comply with UIC train numbering convention when Eurostar was introduced.  But of course old-fashioned local trip freights serving a succession of stations and sidings had vanished from the railway long before thendf

Edited November 24, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[Nearholmer]

Keith HC

 

In the 1950s, and I think for long before too, Rowfant was served by an early morning TB-E.G. goods, and a late afternoon EG-TB. There was also an early morning TB -Tunbridge Wells West goods, but that skipped stations before E.G., and the converse applied in the afternoon/evening.

 

The SR goods system, and I guess elsewhere too, worked as a sort of 'hub and spoke'. There was a hub Yard for each division at the edge of London, Norwood for the Central, then smaller hubs at key points: Redhill, Three Bridges, Brighton, Lewes, Polegate, Horsham, Chichester.

 

Through goods, dropping-off cuts at the intermediate hubs, linked the key hubs at Norwood, Polegate, Brighton and Chichester, and pick-up and local trip workings radiated from each hub. East Grinstead was a place where a spoke from Norwood met a tiny spoke from Three Bridges, and one from Brighton via the Bluebell Line.

 

Looking at it all, one gets the impression that generations of goods train planners and managers had tried to create a rational system out of the whirling chaos of "many-to-many" wagon movements, but never quite succeeded, because, unlike the archetypal fiddle Yard to branch terminus layout, the SR away a very complicated mesh of railways.

 

Or thing I've realised by studying the topic is that many of the 'spokes' on the SR were two--shift jobs, because they had to leave very early, and come home very late, to keep out of the way of the morning and evening passenger trains. This must have made them very expensive to work.

 

And, the "going round the sun to meet the moon" working of full coal wagons from the midlands, and empty ones back, was pretty dire too.

 

Kevin

Edited November 24, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Ron Solly]

Thanks for all the various replies… plenty to think about.

Perhaps I better give some explanation about my layout.
 All locos are diesel but still use brake vans (as a train doesn’t look complete without one..) The D&S railway has modernised in all rolling stock has been fitted with modern braking and knuckle couplers.
 

Station A – terminal has  a yard loco with a 2 car DMU stabled and has traditional Good Shed & cattle dock but a large printing works, memorial firm for cemetery head stones, etc & a Farm & Fuel depot.
 

 Station B – the smaller of the two through stations has a yard loco with traditional Good Shed & cattle dock combined with a larger Farm & Fuel depot of 2 tracks, Gravel/Stone loading plant that handles 14 open/hopper wagons; container loading track; railway stores building: a large electronics factory & a depot for Leather Supplies factory.

 

Station C – the large through station has tracks for marshalling of trains back to stations A & B but for other stations D,E & F which in reality are “hidden” storage tracks for upto 60 plus working wagons and 3 through running goods trains from storage to storage via Station C. Plus trains from storage that stops at C to set down & pick up wagons before going to other storage tracks.

 So C has a large Goods shed of 2 tracks, container loading track, railway stores building, 3 track Brewery; 3 track Flour mill, 2 track Farm & Fuel; Carpet Co Depot plus a large MPD.   In an average operate session of 2 hours, Station C can move around 60 wagons.
 

Stations A & B are one person operator while C has 2 people.
 

During these goods movements, passenger services are also run.