Gaugemaster auto-reverser issue

[ovbulleid]

Hi, I’m currently working part of my layout which forms one side of a triangle. I followed the instructions for where the red and yellow wires go and engines run correctly between the insulated joiners. However when I try to run anything from the main section to the insulated section the controller detects a short circuit and trips out, stalling the engine across the join. My local model shop said it was possible to reduce the sensitivity of the auto-reverser but I removed the plastic sleeve and couldn’t find anything to alter. Is it a setting within my controller which needs altering? Any help much appreciated thanks

[Gordon A]

Have you tried ringing Gaugemaster?

 

Gordon A

[amdaley]

Hi, I’m currently working part of my layout which forms one side of a triangle. I followed the instructions for where the red and yellow wires go and engines run correctly between the insulated joiners. However when I try to run anything from the main section to the insulated section the controller detects a short circuit and trips out, stalling the engine across the join. My local model shop said it was possible to reduce the sensitivity of the auto-reverser but I removed the plastic sleeve and couldn’t find anything to alter. Is it a setting within my controller which needs altering? Any help much appreciated thanks

 

What Dcc system are you using ?

[GeoffAlan]

Have you tried ringing Gaugemaster?

 

Gordon A

+1 for this. Gaugemaster have brilliant customer service. I needed to call them a couple of years ago and they were first class!

[RAF96]

Here is a link to the instructions

http://www.gaugemaster.com/instructions/prodigy/DCC40%20Instructions.pdf

It may be the 2Amp capability is at odds with your controller self protection.

 

Edit - this may also be of help depending upon your controller

http://www.gaugemaster.com/articles/guides/reverse_loops_part2.html

 

And this one deals with triangles

http://www.gaugemaster.com/articles/guides/Reverse-Loops-part3.html

 

Rob

Edited December 6, 2017 by RAFHAAA96

[Brian]

Hi

I can see two possible issues..

1) The DCC system being used has a current rating below that of the RLM. e.g. System 1Amp or just above and the RLM is 2.0Amp.

2) The GM RLM is relay based (Or at least mine is) and this is rather slow in operating. Many DCC systems will 'see' the short and trip out before the relay has had time to flip the out of phase rails.

 

Knowing what DCC system is being used and its track current output would be useful.

[ovbulleid]

What Dcc system are you using ?

Just a standard NCE Procab.

 

I’ve called Gaugemaster directly, agree that they offer a very useful advice service. The section is complicated by a dual-gauge crossing which I have only just rewired so it can flip between standard and narrow, which GM thought might be responsible. I’ll have a fiddle around and see what I can achieve based on what they said.

[amdaley]

Just a standard NCE Procab.

 

I’ve called Gaugemaster directly, agree that they offer a very useful advice service. The section is complicated by a dual-gauge crossing which I have only just rewired so it can flip between standard and narrow, which GM thought might be responsible. I’ll have a fiddle around and see what I can achieve based on what they said.

 

I think Brian has hit it with the GM unit being a relay based unit.

If your loco runs correctly on the main section of your layout & runs correctly inside the insulated reverse section then the GM unit should change the track polarity when the loco moves from one section to the other unless its too slow to react & your NCE system kicks in first.

If that's the case then you will have to get a solid state reversing unit like the PSX here http://www.dccspecialties.com/products/powershield_x.htm

Incidentally is it a 2 amp Power Cab or a 5 amp Power Pro system that you have ?

[ovbulleid]

I think Brian has hit it with the GM unit being a relay based unit.

Incidentally is it a 2 amp Power Cab or a 5 amp Power Pro system that you have ?

It’s the beginners 2Amp system, which I’ve not been able to find out if there’s a way of reducing the sensitivity when it comes to tripping

[RAF96]

For comparison of how it may work, the Hornby unit has two settings one for the Select controller, which normally uses a 1amp power supply and the other for the Elite controller which has a 4 amp power unit. In this case you are actually setting the unit up for the power units and hence the sensitivity.

 

The Select controller has inbuilt self protection for the higher amperage supply but the 1 amp wall wart supply self protects by way of voltage drop.

 

Your unit as stated may be being gazumped by the controller 2 amp self protection and changing to the higher amp supply may be an workable option.

Rob

[NIK]

Just a standard NCE Procab.

 

I’ve called Gaugemaster directly, agree that they offer a very useful advice service. The section is complicated by a dual-gauge crossing which I have only just rewired so it can flip between standard and narrow, which GM thought might be responsible. I’ll have a fiddle around and see what I can achieve based on what they said.

 

Hi,

 

If you could post a clear diagrammatic sketch of the tracks including the dual gauge crossing and marking where the isolation gaps and feeds are on the tracks then it will be easier to advise you on RMWeb. 

 

Based on my experience with trying to use autoreversers with single slips I too suspect its the dual gauge crossing but a sketch would help.

 

I've never found my NCE Power Cab to trip quickly - but the supplied power supply often overloads before the Power Cab itself - but its a gradual drop in volts probably not the 10ms or so of a electronic threshold/relay switch autoreverser.

 

However I understand the Gaugemaster autoreverser doesn't use electronic current detection but relay based logic so it may be a bit slower than most autoreversers.

 

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[amdaley]

It’s the beginners 2Amp system, which I’ve not been able to find out if there’s a way of reducing the sensitivity when it comes to tripping

 

Can you reduce the sensitivity of the GM auto reverser ?

[Brian]

Can you reduce the sensitivity of the GM auto reverser ?

No, its not adjustable!

But adding a car reversing lamp rated at 21watt 12volts in series to one of the two DCC feed wires going to the RLM could stop the main system 'seeing' the short?  For the small cost of the lamp and two pieces of wire IMO its well worth a trial.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Brian

[amdaley]

No, its not adjustable!

But adding a car reversing lamp rated at 21watt 12volts in series to one of the two DCC feed wires going to the RLM could stop the main system 'seeing' the short?  For the small cost of the lamp and two pieces of wire IMO its well worth a trial.

 

Would that then make the GM unit trip ?

[Brian]

It worked when the original Dynamis was on sale, as that had an exceptionally fast trip detection. A lamp wired in series absorbed the short circuit loading that was causing the Dynamis to trip. So I can't see whey it shouldn't work with any other DCC system?  

 

The lamp lights briefly as the short is shunted away though often the RLM is fast enough to stop you actually seeing the lamp glow.  There is still current left for the RLM to operate!  If 21 watt is too high try a 10Watt 12v festoon lamp instead

[Nigelcliffe]

It worked when the original Dynamis was on sale, as that had an exceptionally fast trip detection. A lamp wired in series absorbed the short circuit loading that was causing the Dynamis to trip. So I can't see whey it shouldn't work with any other DCC system?  

 

The lamp lights briefly as the short is shunted away though often the RLM is fast enough to stop you actually seeing the lamp glow.  There is still current left for the RLM to operate!  If 21 watt is too high try a 10Watt 12v festoon lamp instead

 

If you use the smaller lamp, then I can't see how the auto-reverser works.   The smaller 10W/12V lamp carries around 1Amp.   The auto-reverser will only see a 1A draw and as it is designed to trip at 2A (according to the limited maker's information), it will assume a big loco is trundling by and do nothing.  

 

The point being raised earlier is that the 21W lamp is marginal on a nominally 2A auto reverser.  The currents for each are near-enough the same.   So, will it reverse or won't it ?  

 

 

-  Nigel

[Brian]

The point being missed I feel is that the lamp acts as current limiter not a complete cut out. It will shunt away the brief period of the short as the RLM changes over

For the cost of a lamp around £0.90-£1.50p IMO its hardly worth worrying about. Test it and see. Even at Halfords extortionate prices they are just £1.50 per lamp, but there you have to buy a pack of two!

Edited December 10, 2017 by Brian

[ovbulleid]

Thank you everyone for your replies, in the end the problem was with the Tillig Bahn dual gauge crossover which I had not properly wired. I lifted them all up and fitted them with DPDT switches which need changing every time possession changes gauge. The auto-reverser works perfectly every time now.

[Phil S]

"I’ve called Gaugemaster directly, agree that they offer a very useful advice service. The section is complicated by a dual-gauge crossing which I have only just rewired so it can flip between standard and narrow, which GM thought might be responsible. I’ll have a fiddle around and see what I can achieve based on what they said."

 

As you have since discovered - the dual gauge causing the problem - I too have some dual gauge track, and this effectively introduces 'common return' wiring which used to be common with analogue cab-control as it reduced overall wiring - but it is better wired as full Double-Pole switching  for dcc and especially where any auto reversers may be involved  ( which may be confused by Single-pole switching including PSXs - which if 2 similar protected areas are involved,  may sometimes both switch the same rail (phase) and at other times different phase rails which might leave a convoluted route connecting the 2 controllers ....

Unfortunately the 'swap sides' piece of track makes the wiring problems worse and is best avoided if possible ?   Your full double pole isolation of the problem area, and then the auto reverser for correct phase appears an effective solution.