Plans for small 2x3 layout

[Kr00zA]

New to all this. I'm planning on making a small layout thats roughly 2' x 3'

 

 

Ill be running a Hornby Pug or Pecketts with just a couple of wagons.
The outer track loop will be elevated. And I was wondering what sort of gradient I can have the inner part of the layout slope down at.

 

Im going for a Welsh mountain kind of theme. Would I be able to have a steep enough gradient so the sidings could pass under the outer loop?

[awoodford]

It would be as well to check beforehand that you can get the loco and wagons around those sharp radius curves. If you are using hook and bar couplings you may need to extend the hooks. The reverse curve from the set of points at the top could cause problems. It might be better to go directly from the point into the inner curve. Alan.

[Corbs]

Or a curved point may help?

[Alex TM]

Hi everyone,

 

Interesting idea this, and it'll be great if it works.

 

Kr00zA:

I've seen elsewhere that the pug and Peckett (and probably the Hattons' Barclay too) will go round curves almost as tight as these will be.  The challenge will be that some of your curves may have to go down to below those that would be deemed as tight in 'N' gauge, and I'm not sure that would work.  If you don't build your own points then I think the radii will be far too tight to go round (peco points will give a radius of around 17", but to keep it all within a 2' wide board you'll need to drop down to around 8" radius or less to fit in the outer circle).  The tightest that I have seen on a scratch built point is around 12".

 

(All that said, the pointwork around the former Victoria Quay, in Edinburgh, is mostly intact, and that looks to be tighter than scaled up set track would be!)

 

Corbs has a good idea around using a curved point but I think that, too, will have to be self-built for it to stand a chance of fitting.

 

Sorry to be so negative.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Kr00zA]

Hi everyone,

 

Interesting idea this, and it'll be great if it works.

 

Kr00zA:

I've seen elsewhere that the pug and Peckett (and probably the Hattons' Barclay too) will go round curves almost as tight as these will be.  The challenge will be that some of your curves may have to go down to below those that would be deemed as tight in 'N' gauge, and I'm not sure that would work.  If you don't build your own points then I think the radii will be far too tight to go round (peco points will give a radius of around 17", but to keep it all within a 2' wide board you'll need to drop down to around 8" radius or less to fit in the outer circle).  The tightest that I have seen on a scratch built point is around 12".

 

(All that said, the pointwork around the former Victoria Quay, in Edinburgh, is mostly intact, and that looks to be tighter than scaled up set track would be!)

 

Corbs has a good idea around using a curved point but I think that, too, will have to be self-built for it to stand a chance of fitting.

 

Sorry to be so negative.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

Hi

 

I got the idea after watching these You Tube videos...

 

 

 

So Im pretty confident the Pecketts and Pug will cause me no trouble.

The outer loop will have a 12" radius

Inner curves around 9"

 

Ive done this new design....

 

 

My only concern is weather the gradient of the track from point A to point B will be too steep. 

Point B will be a mine entrance.

Ive guesstmated the track length from A to B to be around 5' or 6'

Is that enough to allow it to loop under itself?

Pug/Pecketts are less than 3" tall so Im hoping it wont be an issue.

 

Im also going to shorten all the trucks/carriages etc that this tiny loco pulls.

 

 

I bought this old Brake Car and took a hack saw to it. Might not be realistic... but I think it suits the Pug much better.

Also the shortened wheel base will help with tight curves and short sidings.

 

Ive made a rigid base board of 2.5' x 3.5'

And also have a sheet of flexible board of 2.0' x 3.0'

I plan to draw the track layout on the flexy board and cut it out. A 50mm wide path to give roughly 10mm either side of the track,

Then attach it to the base board using wooden pillars to get the height I require and a nice smooth gradient for the inner track.

So if all goes well Ive have 2'-3' of board around the outside for terrain.

 

The image I have in my head is of a track running around a mining pit at the foot of a mountain/hill.

Outer loop will run along a precarious cliff ledge... with tunnel through mountain... and viaduct  bridge.

Inner track will slope down into the pit... with siding for engine shed... continuing to slop down to the mine entrance.

 

I want it to be both industrious but also green. So green covered rocky mountain/hill with the greyer industrious theme in the middle.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Kr00zA

[47137]

I did some experiments with gradients a couple of years ago. Conclusion was there is a sort of threshold of pain between 1:17 and 1:18, in that most engines will start and climb 1:18 light engine and hardly any can manage to even move on 1:17. Slackening the gradient to 1:20 lets a small engine pull four axles i.e. two small wagons or one coach, on curves down to 18 inch radius, on my layout.

 

Now - you are going to be creating something around 1:20 to climb 3 inches over 60 inches (five feet) and this will be tough for a small train, and possibly impossible on such tight curves. You could buy a yard of flexi track, lay it on a board and try tilting the board to see what will and will not work.

 

There is a commercial "radius 0" track out there, about 12 inch radius but the gauge widens out to 16.8 mm to help things stay on the track. You might find some of this online. It is worthwhile trying some dummy runs, you will find problems which don't happen on larger layouts like (for example) the engine tending to pull the wagon sideways off the track.

 

The model would be quite dramatic if you can pull it off.

 

- Richard.

[cklammer]

Hello,

 

 The old Märklin M-Track (2-Rail AC middle contact) has "industrial radius curves" with a 286 mm radius (google "Märklin 5120"). Not a pretty sight even with the smallest locos and 4-wheel-wagons and -coaches but then Märklin has wheel flanges suitable for dual use as pizza cutters.

 

 Even then one could feel the pain; but doable. I leave it up to your own judgement if such tight curves are advisable and/or wise to employ.

 

Best Regards,

Christian

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

The extra width you've now added will help.

 

A friend works in Gn15, using Peco 0n16.5 flexi track, and successfully gets it to work in the kind of radii you're thinking of.

 

Another track option, though not cheap, is Kato unitrack.  They manufacture a 550mm radius curve; it's pre-ballasted, though this helps give it some additional strength and rigidity.  Here's a reference number for it:

 

K2- 210 - Curved Track Radius 550mm 22.5 Deg.( Pack of 4)

 

Hope it's of help.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Alex TM

[47137]

The firm Modellbahntechnik do a range of tramway track down to 220 mm radius. Again this is not cheap but it might help.

 

The ever-helpful Elaine of Elaines Trains seems to have some on her web site at the moment (usual disclaimer).

 

- Richard.

[Kr00zA]

Thanx for the advice.

Heres some progress on the board.



Ive made a 50mm wide path from 3mm thick MDF for the track to lay on.
Gives me a little room to make adjustments.
Track lays within a 3' x 2' area. Board is 3.5' x 2.5'
The drop is a little under 3' over a track length of aprox 5.5'

Im pretty confident that the Peckett can handle these curves and inclines after studying YouTube vids.
Will keep you posted. 

 

 

Heres a CGI representation of the finished layout... contact me for CGI commission work lol

Edited December 17, 2017 by Kr00zA

[Hesperus]

Hornby 0-4-0T's will run around very tight curves if you only have hooks facing one way on the tension lock couplings.  Have a look at the Hogswatch layout in my signature to see trains looking silly.

[Kr00zA]

Hornby 0-4-0T's will run around very tight curves if you only have hooks facing one way on the tension lock couplings.  Have a look at the Hogswatch layout in my signature to see trains looking silly.

Very cool. I also like your custom trains.

I just bought the cheap starter set so I have a loco to test my layout.

My theory... anything that little cheap loco can manage the Peckett's will do with ease.

I used to do a lot of plasticard scratch builds for WH40K....

 

 

So I'll probably give that cheap little loco a makeover

 

Ive also got some experience with making building...

 

 

So I may well end up making a more 'fantasy' than 'realistic' themed layout.

By 'fantasy' I mean more 'Ivor the Engine'... not a load of Orcs and Elves battling it out lol

Edited December 18, 2017 by Kr00zA

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

Liking the Ork Truk - Waaaagh!

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Kr00zA]

I do have one technical question regarding this layout.
It has three points. All of which Id like to motorise so I can change them at the flick of a switch.
At either end of this layout you can see two gaps.
Id like to fit the controls in one of them. Something simple that will control the loco and the points.  
The gap is 3-3/4" high. Width... not an issue as can easily widen it if necessary. 
Are then any controller units available that would fit my needs?

Ive not no know-wats about electrical stuff.

[marc smith]

As far as the question of "what's the tightest radius curve a loco can negotiate?"
If you use hand-built track, or very tightly curved flexi-track, you can in fact "push" the boundaries a little further - depending on what stock you run on it, of course....

In Paul Lunn's first book on Micro Layouts, there's a photo (near the back somewhere I think?) of a superb little "pizza" layout, built by the talented Neil Rushby
It's in EM gauge, and Neil really squeezed the radius of the track very tightly. Perhaps he'll be along in a minute, to remind me what radius it was, but it was some way tighter than 1st radius curves

Neil ran an EM gauged 03 shunter on it, and mainly 4 wheel wagons. The main problem was not so much stock negotiating the curves, but in fact, the 3 link couplings not being accommodating enough
He had to make them into 4 link couplings, I recall him telling me. There were also a couple of hand-built curved points in evidence, and it was a delightful little layout

EDIT: It's this one
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=neil+rushby+circular+layout&rlz=1C1GGRV_enGB751GB751&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiI3tbUuJbYAhWPJVAKHR1kCKgQ_AUICigB&biw=1920&bih=949#imgrc=0DKzAYIIkEZwfM:

 

As you can see from the plan, the diameter of the bass is around 2 feet, but some of the curves on the layout are far tighter than that!
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=neil+rushby+circular+layout&rlz=1C1GGRV_enGB751GB751&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiI3tbUuJbYAhWPJVAKHR1kCKgQ_AUICigB&biw=1920&bih=949#imgrc=5CIzfH57d_3f2M:

Edited December 19, 2017 by marc smith

[Kr00zA]

 

As I wont be able to continue the build till the weekend I thought Id break out my super computer and treat you all to this CGI master piece.

I think this pic gives a good idea of the depth 'as in hight' this layout will have.

The mountain tunnel with be in two sections... firstly because it will look good.... secondly because it makes retrieving a derailed loco easy.  

Sidings will allow for 'play' and the addition of a second loco if wished.

Im going call this 'coffee table' sized lol. As it is a reasonable size for storage... and easy to plonk on a coffee table for a few hour of play.

Not exactly 'micro' but maybe the smallest size you can incorporate all the mayor aspect of a full sized layout in  'Loop... sidings... tunnel... bridge... inclines' 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Kr00zA

[Kr00zA]

Sorry about the picture quality.

Ive made most the the rocky terrain. Its polystyrene chunks covered in PVA glue and Blue Roll.

So its very light weight whilst strong... with a nice base colour.

Tunnels were constructed from strips of card bent into arches... using the PVA bottle as a size guide.

They're just big enough to allow a four wheeled coach pass though them.

Bridge was made from cardboard and then cladded in textured plasticard.

The gravel is held in place by super glue to make it very hard wearing and secure the track solidly in place.

Happy to report even this cheap little loco can manage all the curves and inclines with ease. 

[andyram]

Wow! You really have made a lot of progress. It is really looking good. I look forward to seeing further progress in the near future. Great work.