Coombe junction

[class37418stag]

Hello everyone

 

I has seen pictures and video about liskeard to coombe junction to reverse to looe terminus

 

So when arrived junction and past point and stop then guard off to change point by lever ground frame then guard get in DMU to terminus for coombe junction halt and afterward go to looe terminus later go back all way as same way ?

[D854_Tiger]

Hello everyone

 

I has seen pictures and video about liskeard to coombe junction to reverse to looe terminus

 

So when arrived junction and past point and stop then guard off to change point by lever ground frame then guard get in DMU to terminus for coombe junction halt and afterward go to looe terminus later go back all way as same way ?

 

On some of the Youtube clips I've seen a member of signalling staff would appear to be on the ground operating the points and releasing the token for the branch.

 

I do not know if that is a daily occurrence or just for special trains.

 

The branch is operated on the one engine in steam principle, once a train goes onto the branch the points cannot be released for another to go in until that train returns.

 

Coombe Junction is operated, as you stated, trains arrive at the junction then must reverse, to gain entry onto the main part of the branch, however Coombe Junction Halt is two hundred yards or so beyond the actual junction so train do not actually need to go all the way to the Halt, in order to reverse and, indeed, most do not, as only a small number of trains (two in each direction) in the timetable are scheduled to call there.

 

All other trains stop short of the Halt, reversing at the junction (Coombe No 1 Ground Frame).

 

The branch is visited once a week by a freight train, which does not reverse onto the main part of the branch but runs through the Halt and proceeds for around a mile back under the main line to Moorswater, the other end of the line and the original purpose of the railway before later being connected to the main line at Liskeard.

 

Which explains the rather convoluted junction arrangement.

[class37418stag]

On some of the Youtube clips I've seen a member of signalling staff would appear to be on the ground operating the points and releasing the token for the branch.

 

I do not know if that is a daily occurrence or just for special trains.

 

The branch is operated on the one engine in steam principle, once a train goes onto the branch the points cannot be released for another to go in until that train returns.

 

Coombe Junction is operated, as you stated, trains arrive at the junction then must reverse, to gain entry onto the main part of the branch, however Coombe Junction Halt is two hundred yards or so beyond the actual junction so train do not actually need to go all the way to the Halt, in order to reverse and, indeed, most do not, as only a small number of trains (two in each direction) in the timetable are scheduled to call there.

 

All other trains stop short of the Halt, reversing at the junction (Coombe No 1 Ground Frame).

 

The branch is visited once a week by a freight train, which does not reverse onto the main part of the branch but runs through the Halt and proceeds for around a mile back under the main line to Moorswater, the other end of the line and the original purpose of the railway before later being connected to the main line at Liskeard.

 

Which explains the rather convoluted junction arrangement.

Hello I has seen YouTube so that branch don’t have or have signal ? But only token key for access points

[D854_Tiger]

Hello I has seen YouTube so that branch don’t have or have signal ? But only token key for access points

Yes, correct the line is controlled by tokens with no signal.

 

Wiki explains it here quite well.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looe_Valley_Line

 

According to this the Coombe Junction ground frame is normally controlled by the guard acting as signalman (person).

[class37418stag]

Yes, correct the line is controlled by tokens with no signal.

 

Wiki explains it here quite well.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looe_Valley_Line

 

According to this the Coombe Junction ground frame is normally controlled by the guard acting as signalman (person).

Thanks D854 Tiger

[Pacific231G]

On some of the Youtube clips I've seen a member of signalling staff would appear to be on the ground operating the points and releasing the token for the branch.

 

I do not know if that is a daily occurrence or just for special trains.

 

The branch is operated on the one engine in steam principle, once a train goes onto the branch the points cannot be released for another to go in until that train returns.

 

Coombe Junction is operated, as you stated, trains arrive at the junction then must reverse, to gain entry onto the main part of the branch, however Coombe Junction Halt is two hundred yards or so beyond the actual junction so train do not actually need to go all the way to the Halt, in order to reverse and, indeed, most do not, as only a small number of trains (two in each direction) in the timetable are scheduled to call there.

 

All other trains stop short of the Halt, reversing at the junction (Coombe No 1 Ground Frame).

 

The branch is visited once a week by a freight train, which does not reverse onto the main part of the branch but runs through the Halt and proceeds for around a mile back under the main line to Moorswater, the other end of the line and the original purpose of the railway before later being connected to the main line at Liskeard.

 

Which explains the rather convoluted junction arrangement.

You're quite right that the track that runs under the GW main line viaduct was the line's original purpose but it didn't always end at Moorswater.  IMHO it was one of Britain's more interesting minor railways serving an area rich in industrial archaeology. . 

It was originally built in 1844 as the Liskeard and Caradon railway, horse drawn and running from the Liskeard and Looe Union Canal basin at Moorswater up to  the Caradon tin and copper mines and later to other mines and granite quarries further north around Kilmar, originally via Gonamena using an inclined plane but later via an adhesion worked line that went the long way around Caradon Hill via Tokenbury Corner .  

 

The canal had been built in 1827, originally  to carry sand and lime brought into Looe by ship to improve agriculture around Liskeard. Minerals from the newly opened mines around Caradon added to its income but. once the railway was built, the increasingly heavy ore traffic was more than the canal could handle; in 1860 the canal company built a steam hauled railway parallel to its canal down to Looe with its quays for seagoing ships. This made an end on junction with the Liskeard and Caradon and most of the canal was closed. The Liskeard and Caradon took over the canal company's railway in 1862 after which the whole line was steam hauled

 

The line was opened to passengers in 1879 but officially only between Looe and Moorswater though they were carried up to Caradon in open wagons "at their own risk" until 1896 (legally they weren't passengers because they travelled free but their umbrellas and bags etc. didn't !)

 

The steeply curved connecting line from Coombe junction to Liskeard station was opened in 1901, by which time mineral traffic from the mines (if any were still open by then) and quarries had declined considerably; the passenger station at Moorswater then closed. The GWR took over the line in 1909 and closed everything north of Moorswater in 1916. That part of the line was lifted the following year.

 

There's a reasonably well illustrated video about Moorswater and its railway history here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQp_LrZwmAo&feature=share

 

and a lot more about the branch here

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/looe-branch-including-moorswater.html

 

I first explored the line as a student in Plymouth at the end of the 1960s but, without a car, only the sections accessible by rail. At that time Moorswater was being used  for china clay with drying sheds and a couple or so trains a week and I'm pretty sure the loco shed, which had closed in 1961, was still there. At that time the trackbed north towards Caradon was still clearly identifiable. There was still a fully manned signalbox at Coombe Junction which even then struck me as wasteful when most of the time a single diesel unit was the only thing on the line. Looe station was still in its original location, the line has been cut back since to make way for a car park, and there was still some inset quayside track beyond it . 

 

Much later in the 1980s with a car and friends living in Liskeard (whose dog needed walking) I explored the upper part of the line from Caradon to Kilmar. Most of the trackbed, including many of the granite blocks the rail was laid on, was and probably still is very visible and walkable. The other thing I remember up there were the frequent small enclosures protected by just a strand or two of barbed wire- the still gaping shafts of long abandoned mines!

Edited December 31, 2017 by Pacific231G

[LBRJ]

The Guard gets off each and every train to  operate the ground frame.

The points are usually set for the Liskeard to Moorswater route, if the train is  one scheduled to call at Coombe Junction station than the train runs into and out of the station before the ground frame is operated.

If no station call at Coombe, the train stops immediately clear of the points, blocking the crossing and then the ground frame is operated.

 

There is both a Token and Staff that travel between Liskeard and Coombe Junction in the Drivers possession.

The Token covers operation between Liskeard and Coombe. The Staff covers the line from Coombe to Looe.

 

Coming up from Looe towards Liskeard. all trains stop at the Stop & Await Instructions board prior to the actual junction.

The Guard walks forward to contact the signaller, operates the ground frame and when suitable gives the driver the Instruction he is waiting for as denoted on the sign. IE Draw Forward.

 

When the train is clear of the points the Guard rejoins the train and gives Right Away.

[brianusa]

The Guard gets off each and every train to  operate the ground frame.

The points are usually set for the Liskeard to Moorswater route, if the train is  one scheduled to call at Coombe Junction station than the train runs into and out of the station before the ground frame is operated.

If no station call at Coombe, the train stops immediately clear of the points, blocking the crossing and then the ground frame is operated.

 

There is both a Token and Staff that travel between Liskeard and Coombe Junction in the Drivers possession.

The Token covers operation between Liskeard and Coombe. The Staff covers the line from Coombe to Looe.

 

Coming up from Looe towards Liskeard. all trains stop at the Stop & Await Instructions board prior to the actual junction.

The Guard walks forward to contact the signaller, operates the ground frame and when suitable gives the driver the Instruction he is waiting for as denoted on the sign. IE Draw Forward.

 

When the train is clear of the points the Guard rejoins the train and gives Right Away.

 

Hi David, we explored the upper reaches of the L & C a few years ahead of you and this interest has lasted all these years.  Alas, all I can do now is obtain all the books on the subject due to the distance involved, so are there any other fanciers of this railway?

 

Brian.

[Pacific231G]

Hi David, we explored the upper reaches of the L & C a few years ahead of you and this interest has lasted all these years.  Alas, all I can do now is obtain all the books on the subject due to the distance involved, so are there any other fanciers of this railway?

 

Brian.

The one thing I've never been able to figure out, after studying the most detailed maps and plans available, was how the upper line was worked without a single run round loop after Moorswater. I've always assumed that a certain amount of gravity or horse shunting was involved. Trains coming down from the Cheesewring and Kilmar would have had to reverse at Crows Nest  but I can't believe that they were propelled for six or seven miles;especially not in the final years when the GWR was operating the line.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Pacific231G

[royaloak]

On some of the Youtube clips I've seen a member of signalling staff would appear to be on the ground operating the points and releasing the token for the branch.

 

I do not know if that is a daily occurrence or just for special trains.

 

The branch is operated on the one engine in steam principle, once a train goes onto the branch the points cannot be released for another to go in until that train returns.

 

Coombe Junction is operated, as you stated, trains arrive at the junction then must reverse, to gain entry onto the main part of the branch, however Coombe Junction Halt is two hundred yards or so beyond the actual junction so train do not actually need to go all the way to the Halt, in order to reverse and, indeed, most do not, as only a small number of trains (two in each direction) in the timetable are scheduled to call there.

 

All other trains stop short of the Halt, reversing at the junction (Coombe No 1 Ground Frame).

 

The branch is visited once a week by a freight train, which does not reverse onto the main part of the branch but runs through the Halt and proceeds for around a mile back under the main line to Moorswater, the other end of the line and the original purpose of the railway before later being connected to the main line at Liskeard.

 

Which explains the rather convoluted junction arrangement.

Once again you are posting your incorrect opinion as fact!

[LBRJ]

Once again you are posting your incorrect opinion as fact!

Seems to be a bit of a harsh critique !

Whilst the post is not 100% infallible its pretty much correct as an over-view to operations at Coombe Junction.

[LBRJ]

On some of the Youtube clips I've seen a member of signalling staff would appear to be on the ground operating the points and releasing the token for the branch.

That is pretty correct.  Normally, the g/f would be operated by the Guard or Trainman D/Shunter though it could well be operated by S&T technicians during maintenance works etc.

 

I do not know if that is a daily occurrence or just for special trains.

 

The branch is operated on the one engine in steam principle, once a train goes onto the branch the points cannot be released for another to go in until that train returns.

The line from Liskeard to Coombe J is operated by Electric Token. The line from J to Looe is operated by On Train Staff so only one train can be on the line.

 

Coombe Junction is operated, as you stated, trains arrive at the junction then must reverse, to gain entry onto the main part of the branch, however Coombe Junction Halt is two hundred yards or so beyond the actual junction so train do not actually need to go all the way to the Halt, in order to reverse and, indeed, most do not, as only a small number of trains (two in each direction) in the timetable are scheduled to call there.

 

Not totally true, but near enough for our purposes

 

All other trains stop short of the Halt, reversing at the junction (Coombe No 1 Ground Frame).

 

The branch is visited once a week by a freight train, which does not reverse onto the main part of the branch but runs through the Halt and proceeds for around a mile back under the main line to Moorswater, the other end of the line and the original purpose of the railway before later being connected to the main line at Liskeard.

 

Which explains the rather convoluted junction arrangement.

 

All seems to be more or less correct.

Sorry for the point by point dissection of the post but I simply could not see what the poster who said it was opinion was on about.

[royaloak]

Seems to be a bit of a harsh critique !

Whilst the post is not 100% infallible its pretty much correct as an over-view to operations at Coombe Junction.

If it was the first time then I would agree, but he has posted his opinion as fact on several occasions and at best it is half the story, at worst it is completely misleading.

[LBRJ]

If it was the first time then I would agree, but he has posted his opinion as fact on several occasions and at best it is half the story, at worst it is completely misleading.

Ahh

well I was unaware of that.

At least we now have pretty much the correct chapter and verse of how Coombe Junction does work for the record

[royaloak]

Sorry for the point by point dissection of the post but I simply could not see what the poster who said it was opinion was on about.

But if you were to correct the post there wouldnt be much of the original one left.

 

Pretty correct, not totally true and more or less correct are not the same as correct are they!

 

Liskeard to Looe is treated as two separate sections, one from Liskeard (either the platform or spur) to Coombe jn and the other from Coombe jn, to Looe and back to the stop board (not Coombe jn), once the unit is confirmed onto the Looe line (Liskeard to Looe token locked in machine at Coombe jn and staff out of ground frame no1) another train can be accepted from Liskeard down to Coombe jn (and into Moorswater via no2 ground frame) or from Moorswater to Coombe jn and up to Liskeard

Edited December 29, 2017 by royaloak

[LBRJ]

No but this is a forum about model railways not one about correct operation practices on branch lines in SE Cornwall.

 

If you want me to give you the full historical SP it may take quite a a while to type out

 

I just tried to make a good answer to a question.

[royaloak]

No but this is a forum about model railways not one about correct operation practices on branch lines in SE Cornwall.

 

If you want me to give you the full historical SP it may take quite a a while to type out

 

I just tried to make a good answer to a question.

I appreciate that and agree, but some modellers do like to operate prototypically and the operation of the Looe branch is quite a convoluted (but very interesting) affair considering it is 'only' a branch line.

 

As for your offer of a lesson on the history of the line, that would probably be best done down the local over a pint or three.

 

Which you have done a very good job of!

[St. Simon]

The branch is operated on the one engine in steam principle, once a train goes onto the branch the points cannot be released for another to go in until that train returns.

 

The line is effectively two seperate branch lines, therefore technically you can two trains on the branch, one running Liskeard - Moorswater whilst one runs Coombe - Looe (once it has left the clearance point of Coombe Junction), although this would be a change in the way it is worked now.

 

I've spent alot of time on the operation of the Looe Branch, as I designed the re-signalling in the summer for the Branch. Technically the branch has 6 signals, 4 Stopboards and 2 Fixed Distant Boards, which under modern standards, are classed as signals, although they don't have an I.D. at current.

 

Simon

 

Simon

[royaloak]

The line is effectively two seperate branch lines, therefore technically you can two trains on the branch, one running Liskeard - Moorswater whilst one runs Coombe - Looe (once it has left the clearance point of Coombe Junction), although this would be a change in the way it is worked now.

 

I've spent alot of time on the operation of the Looe Branch, as I designed the re-signalling in the summer for the Branch. Technically the branch has 6 signals, 4 Stopboards and 2 Fixed Distant Boards, which under modern standards, are classed as signals, although they don't have an I.D. at current.

 

Simon

 

Simon

Any chance of getting the stop board on the approach to Coombe jn from Looe replaced please, it is supposed to be reflective but is anything but.

 

A lot of new drivers are currently learning the route and it is probably only a matter of time before one of them misjudges it and goes past it because they couldnt see it properly.

[brianusa]

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Hi David, we explored the upper reaches of the L & C a few years ahead of you and this interest has lasted all these years.  Alas, all I can do now is obtain all the books on the subject due to the distance involved, so are there any other fanciers of this railway?

Brian.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Apparently not; but in response to David (Pacific 231G), there is considerable reference to the loop at St Cleer.

 

Brian.

[Pacific231G]

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Hi David, we explored the upper reaches of the L & C a few years ahead of you and this interest has lasted all these years.  Alas, all I can do now is obtain all the books on the subject due to the distance involved, so are there any other fanciers of this railway?

Brian.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Apparently not; but in response to David (Pacific 231G), there is considerable reference to the loop at St Cleer.

 

Brian.

Updated to include information from 1900s 25" maps

 

Hi Brian

If you got to http://maps.nls.uk

you should be able to get to at least the six inch maps of the L&C for the 1880s and for the 1900s. as well as  25 inch maps available but I've not explored that yet.

 

I've just explored both the 1883 and 1905 six inch maps of the area (update) - and the 25" maps from about 1905. The earlier map indicated a possible loop (shown as two parallel tracks) at the end of the extension at Kilmar where two or three granite quarries were served. By 1905 that line had been cut back to a point  beyond Minions at Sharptor  where there was some kind of loading shed and a loop

 

By then all the mines, apart from part of Phoenix United east of the Cheesewring, are shown as disused so the line would probably have been carrying mainly granite. There was a single spur line into Phoenix United Mine and a zig zag spur into Cheeswring Quarry where there were several sidings. At Tokenbury Corner there was a single ended siding in front of some buildings. Further down the line at Caradon there is  just a simple reversal with no other sidings shown and, apart from a short spur siding at Railway Terrace, both maps then  show plain track all the way back to Moorswater. It's hard to be definitive from the 1883 map but the 25" map from 1905 shows every track very clearly

 

There's no sign of a loop at St. Cleer but there may have been one when the line was horse drawn.The loop may also have been referring to a loop of track as the line rises from Moorswater in a series of loops till after St. Cleer. Anyway you can have fun exploring it yoursefl on the National Library of Scotland Site. 

 

This is a rough sketch of the line as it was in 1905 redrawn from one in R W Kidner's Mineral Railways, but I've now been through the 1900s 25" maps of the area that are also available from the National Library of Scotland which do give 

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by Pacific231G

[St. Simon]

Any chance of getting the stop board on the approach to Coombe jn from Looe replaced please, it is supposed to be reflective but is anything but.

 

A lot of new drivers are currently learning the route and it is probably only a matter of time before one of them misjudges it and goes past it because they couldnt see it properly.

Hi,

 

I'll see what I can do / who I can contact when I get back the office in the new year.

 

Simon

[rosetheromani]

The Guard gets off each and every train to  operate the ground frame.

The points are usually set for the Liskeard to Moorswater route, if the train is  one scheduled to call at Coombe Junction station than the train runs into and out of the station before the ground frame is operated.

If no station call at Coombe, the train stops immediately clear of the points, blocking the crossing and then the ground frame is operated.

 This is shown in "The Least Used Station" series by Geoff Marshall (oops spelt name as Marsh in original post)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu2_cl80RSQ. Along with a look at all of the facilities of Coombe Junction.

Edited December 30, 2017 by rosetheromani

[royaloak]

Just seen this reply-

Hi,

I'll see what I can do / who I can contact when I get back the office in the new year.

Simon

Thank you, it is much appreciated.

[TravisM]

Just a few questions about this interesting branch;  Are the freight workings to Moorswater still running or has that all now ceased?  And also, I also seem to remember something about some excursion traffic, topping and tailing running down the Looe branch a few years ago.  Has that actually happened or is that urban myth?